Sperg about comic books here

[Cactuar King]

Ennis' Punisher MAX are some of my favorite comics and his Hellblazer run is decent (probably my fourth favorite run on the original book) but I've never liked his original works.

Punisher MAX is good for the most part, Barracuda I think is the weird one that isn't that good. Seems a bit strange to me that Punisher blows up a yacht with a ton of innocent people just to kill 2 criminals.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

Punisher MAX is good for the most part, Barracuda I think is the weird one that isn't that good. Seems a bit strange to me that Punisher blows up a yacht with a ton of innocent people just to kill 2 criminals.

Yeah, that's the arc that's always stuck out as stupid to me. He tries to justify it by saying everyone on the ship was guilty... but why the fuck would the catering staff and janitors and shit be guilty of whatever the rich fucks were.

 

[Moguro Fukuzou]

Been reading through Harley Quinn stuff recently and I've found most of the new stuff isn't super appealing sadly. I loved Harleen, which got me into checking out more stuff with her in it, but so far it's been the older stuff I've found the most enjoyable. Currently reading her series from 2000 and liking it a lot more than the couple issues I read of n52 Harley, but I've also enjoyed Mad Love and Harley & Ivy during my binge. I don't think it really counts as a Harley work, but she was also pretty good in Batman: White Knight though I enjoyed the whole of that anyway.

Something about how she's written in the new stuff just feels lacking and I can see why people were complaining about the whole "female Deadpool" thing, she doesn't really have the same charm. I can't really put my finger on exactly what about her character feels wrong, but it's like she's lacking that cunning/intelligence hidden underneath the clownish over-the-top exterior. I don't know if that's the best word for it, I just remember the way she acted in the old B:TAS and it felt like the older stuff used that as a base.

It's on a more minor note but I really don't like the costume change they've put her through, much bigger fan of her older look since the new one is too Hot Topic for my tastes.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

Or this

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I actually read this entire thing and I can’t believe that the guy who created Preacher did this with so much TDS. I honestly couldn’t tell if this were satire or not.

Na, I can't stand the King of the Edgelords either. He's done some good stuff, like Caliban, but overall I think he's insufferable.

I like to think that the popularity that The Boys received after being a live action movie made the popularity of Garth Ennis sound more insufferable than it needs to be. It still doesn’t take away from the quality of his earlier work, in my opinion.

 

[jspit2.0]

Ennis is a guy who needs a leash. When he has someone who will tell him "no" from time to time, you get Hitman, which is still one of my favorite DC books all time. When nobody can tell him "no," you get the worst excesses of Crossed or Preacher or the Boys. Ironically I think he would have put out better stuff if he'd gotten less famous.

Man, Hitman had some good moments. But it ended the way all his stuff kindof does.

Or this

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That's some...pretty salty words there.

Yeah, what's the old saying, no kindof class like no class?

Ennis' Punisher MAX are some of my favorite comics and his Hellblazer run is decent (probably my fourth favorite run on the original book) but I've never liked his original works.

I guess I'm not the audience for his stuff. I hope his Punisher got better than him clowning Spider-man and Wolverine like cartoons.

Been reading through Harley Quinn stuff recently and I've found most of the new stuff isn't super appealing sadly. I loved Harleen, which got me into checking out more stuff with her in it, but so far it's been the older stuff I've found the most enjoyable. Currently reading her series from 2000 and liking it a lot more than the couple issues I read of n52 Harley, but I've also enjoyed Mad Love and Harley & Ivy during my binge. I don't think it really counts as a Harley work, but she was also pretty good in Batman: White Knight though I enjoyed the whole of that anyway.

She featured prominently in Dini's run on the Bat books. She's pitch perfect too. A reformed Harley true to her original character.

Unfortunately Dini hopped on the Deadpool with tits train.

Something about how she's written in the new stuff just feels lacking and I can see why people were complaining about the whole "female Deadpool" thing, she doesn't really have the same charm.

Or the humanity. Or go the the shit Deadpool went through when he became popular. His story was literally being the cosmic Karma turd. He has no friends, women won't look at him without puking, and he's a mercenary that kills people for money. That's OG Deadpool.

I can't really put my finger on exactly what about her character feels wrong, but it's like she's lacking that cunning/intelligence hidden underneath the clownish over-the-top exterior. I don't know if that's the best word for it, I just remember the way she acted in the old B:TAS and it felt like the older stuff used that as a base.

She's crazy cause she loves the Joker. If she's over the Joker, she isn't crazy Harley Quinn anymore, she's Doctor Harleen Quinzel.

It's on a more minor note but I really don't like the costume change they've put her through, much bigger fan of her older look since the new one is too Hot Topic for my tastes.

No one really does. That's why they keep changing it every couple of years. But the old ones too problematic.

I actually read this entire thing and I can’t believe that the guy who created Preacher did this with so much TDS. I honestly couldn’t tell if this were satire or not.

I like to think that the popularity that The Boys received after being a live action movie made the popularity of Garth Ennis sound more insufferable than it needs to be. It still doesn’t take away from the quality of his earlier work, in my opinion.

I'd can dispute that quality.

He's good dialogue and characters arcs.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

I guess I'm not the audience for his stuff. I hope his Punisher got better than him clowning Spider-man and Wolverine like cartoons.

Yeah, that was his pre-MAX stuff, which was pretty goofy. Ennis' galaxy brained way of 'dealing' with Spider-Man was to trap him in a room full of mines... despite Spider-Man having a danger sense that would allow him to easily chart a safe way through the room.

His MAX stories are more serious crime and military stories that were grounded more in reality and detached from the regular Marvel universe.

 

[jspit2.0]

Yeah, that was his pre-MAX stuff, which was pretty goofy. Ennis' galaxy brained way of 'dealing' with Spider-Man was to trap him in a room full of mines... despite Spider-Man having a danger sense that would allow him to easily chart a safe way through the room.

His MAX stories are more serious crime and military stories that were grounded more in reality and detached from the regular Marvel universe.

Oof, which is why I find him getting work at the big two laughable. His antipathy for superheroes leads him to write shoddy stories for them.

 

[kaien]

Punisher MAX is good for the most part, Barracuda I think is the weird one that isn't that good. Seems a bit strange to me that Punisher blows up a yacht with a ton of innocent people just to kill 2 criminals.

Nah, that is absolutely the flop in the original MAX run, and I feel like I understand why, but it's hard to put into words. He's trying to make some kind of grand metatextual comment on Frank's blind spot regarding street crime versus white-collar crime and the same blind spot in when it comes to comic-book vigilantes in general, and he just ends up reaching way, way farther than he can grasp. I dunno. This made sense in my head.

Ennis is good at some kinds of political commentary. Depends on your perspective obviously, but I thought Fury: My War Gone By was a really fuckin good rip into American interventionism during the Cold War. And I loved "Valley Forge, Valley Forge" from Punisher MAX, his big statement on Vietnam and the Iraq war. But he's not as clever as he thinks he is sometimes.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

His Punisher MAX one-shot "The Tyger" was probably my favorite story. I'd say track down scans of that if you're interested in getting a taste for what his Punisher MAX work was like.

 

[kaien]

Second the recommendation for "The Tyger." Art by John Severin, who was big in the fifties doing the EC war comics, so it has this great old-school look. And it touches on Frank growing up Catholic, underused theme in the character. I always dug the version of his origin where he was drafted to Vietnam out of divinity school.

 

[Cactuar King]

Oof, which is why I find him getting work at the big two laughable. His antipathy for superheroes leads him to write shoddy stories for them.

Yeah, Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe especially was such a joke to me, it read like fanfiction-tier crap.

 

[JimiHendrix]

i think ennis can be a great writer when he wants to be, he's just also excessively edgy, but I think Dangerous Habits and the Boys are genuinely good, where as Crossed is nothing but torture porn shlock with no redeeming qualities. I haven't read preacher yet.

I don't think it really counts as a Harley work, but she was also pretty good in Batman: White Knight though I enjoyed the whole of that anyway

harley got her own white knight spin off. White Knight Presents: Harley Quinn. so if you enjoy how she was written in that, check it out.

 

[jspit2.0]

i think ennis can be a great writer when he wants to be, he's just also excessively edgy, but I think Dangerous Habits and the Boys are genuinely good, where as Crossed is nothing but torture porn shlock with no redeeming qualities. I haven't read preacher yet.

The Boys? I gotta say nah on that.

harley got her own white knight spin off. White Knight Presents: Harley Quinn. so if you enjoy how she was written in that, check it out.

Well, she's Harleen Quinzel in that, If I remember correctly.

Now that Geof Johns and Gary Frank have split from DC, I wonder what Jason Fabok does?

 

[JimiHendrix]

The Boys? I gotta say nah on that.

i think butcher is a well written character and very interesting to read. If you look at The Boys with the framing of Butcher being the main antagonist I think it's a pretty interesting story. Is it overly gorey and gross? yeah, and that's ennis' fault as a writer. But is it bad? No, if you want bad just look at Crossed. That's fucking bad.

 

[Water-T]

i think butcher is a well written character and very interesting to read. If you look at The Boys with the framing of Butcher being the main antagonist I think it's a pretty interesting story. Is it overly gorey and gross? yeah, and that's ennis' fault as a writer. But is it bad? No, if you want bad just look at Crossed. That's fucking bad.

The TV adaptation omits or outright changes a lot of the overly cringy 2edgy4u shit, so it is a lot more tolerable than the book.

Plus we get a gem like "STOP BEING A PUSSY AND LASER MY FUCKING TITS!"

 

[JimiHendrix]

The TV adaptation omits or outright changes a lot of the overly cringy 2edgy4u shit, so it is a lot more tolerable than the book.

Plus we get a gem like "STOP BEING A PUSSY AND LASER MY FUCKING TITS!"

i think the TV show and the book are good in different ways. The TV shows provides a much more concise and less edgy story, but it loses out on things I really liked like the relationship between Frenchie and The Female and it changes Butcher entirely into essentially a different character completely.

 

[jspit2.0]

i think butcher is a well written character and very interesting to read.

He's a two dimensional, prototypical man on fire who want's revenge and his stick gets old because Garth Ennis can't write seriously from a perspective he doesn't hold.

If you look at The Boys with the framing of Butcher being the main antagonist I think it's a pretty interesting story.

But....that's a cop out. The Boys as a story is muddled. It's more a meta textual place for Garth Ennis to shovel his opinions on you. His takes on 9/11, Bush, the War on Terror, the comic book industry, Christians, the political right. The story is left to shrivel and meander as he delivers unsolicited opinion after unsolicited hot take on why Christians are stupid, the comic industry and it's heroes are bullshit, and on and on.

Is it overly gorey and gross? yeah, and that's ennis' fault as a writer.

I'm not objecting to that. Lot's of things are 'gorey and gross'.

I object to Ennis' superficially raising issues and failing to provide any adequate challenge to them. I object to his cardboard world. I most strongly object to people overlooking its flaws because on some levels they agree with Ennis' Euro trash opinions.

But is it bad?

Yes.

No

Hrm

if you want bad just look at Crossed. That's fucking bad.

I don't disagree.

 

[JimiHendrix]

He's a two dimensional, prototypical man on fire who want's revenge and his stick gets old because Garth Ennis can't write seriously from a perspective he doesn't hold.

He's a monster who lacks empathy on a fundamental level, every single other person on the Boys team explicitly has an empathetic connection to something. Hughie to everyone. Frenchie and The Female to each other. Mother's Milk to his family. Butcher is the only one who doesn't have an empathetic connection to anything, because the only thing he ever felt anything for was taken from him, which is part of why he's a monster. I really don't find him to be 2D.

He refers to homosexuals as poofs and faggots, but when actually dealing with them he's perfectly civil, charming even, which shows how manipulative he can be as well as the fact he may be a bit of a cunt, but he's not an outright asshole.

He seems to have an actual fondness for Hughie, even building Hughie into his plan as a fail safe since he knows what he's going to do is genocidal.

I'd say he has a deep hatred for himself as well, I mean that's pretty obvious considering the things he says about himself or his line about men with out women.

I really don't see how you found Butcher two dimensional unless you just speed read through the comic.

But....that's a cop out. The Boys as a story is muddled. It's more a meta textual place for Garth Ennis to shovel his opinions on you. His takes on 9/11, Bush, the War on Terror, the comic book industry, Christians, the political right. The story is left to shrivel and meander as he delivers unsolicited opinion after unsolicited hot take on why Christians are stupid, the comic industry and it's heroes are bullshit, and on and on.

yeah, the inclusion of 9/11 and a bunch of the other things was a bit unnecessary. I know this may be unusual given the times we live in, but I don't know much of anything about politics and I actively avoid it. Since I really don't care. So while I'm sure there may've been direct political sperging in the boys, it didn't bother me since I really don't pay enough attention to pick up on it unless it's literally just
"trump bad" levels of direct.

I don't find it to be a cop out when it's the main point of the fucking story though. Butcher *is* the main antagonist. That's not me just putting a spin on it. He is. Butcher's the bad guy. Homelander may be the villain of the story, but Butcher is the outright antagonist.

I object to Ennis' superficially raising issues and failing to provide any adequate challenge to them. I object to his cardboard world. I most strongly object to people overlooking its flaws because on some levels they agree with Ennis' Euro trash opinions.

I don't give a single fuck about his opinions. The Boys has it's flaws, sure. It's not a perfect story. I think it has elements, like Butcher, that are well written and worth reading though.

I've read comics where Batman was going on a fever dream rant to Robin about how killing can be good and maybe guns aren't so bad after all or comics were Constantine was reduced to a pedophile and dog fucker.

I've read bad comics. On its whole I don't think The Boys is that. It's not the best shit I've ever read, but the opinion of it having no worth and being only slightly above Crossed is a bit much.

 

[jspit2.0]

He's a monster who lacks empathy on a fundamental level

At times. At other times empathizes with a dog, Huey, the old Stan Lee stand in, and others.

every single other person on the Boys team explicitly has an empathetic connection to something. Hughie to everyone. Frenchie and The Female to each other. Mother's Milk to his family. Butcher is the only one who doesn't have an empathetic connection to anything, because the only thing he ever felt anything for was taken from him, which is part of why he's a monster. I really don't find him to be 2D.

He's a man who hates superheroes cause they killed his wife. He kills them. He's a generic Ennis tough boy complete with edgy black jacket.

I really don't see how you found Butcher two dimensional unless you just speed read through the comic.

First, you don't do your position any favors by attacking me. Second, I just explained how basic his story was. He doesn't undergo a character arc, he's starts mad, he ends mad. You fucking make my point for me with your whole 'he's whatever he needs to be for his goals' ie he doesn't have depth beyond being a two dimensional revenge plot driver.

yeah, the inclusion of 9/11 and a bunch of the other things was a bit unnecessary. I know this may be unusual given the times we live in, but I don't know much of anything about politics and I actively avoid it. Since I really don't care. So while I'm sure there may've been direct political sperging in the boys, it didn't bother me since I really don't pay enough attention to pick up on it unless it's literally just
"trump bad" levels of direct.

My problem with it was its very two dimensional and he doesn't really at any point challenge it. It's less 'here's an interesting issue, let's have three dimensional characters interact with it as a backdrop' and more 'Oi, American cunts. Your fecking entitled. My Frenchie is gonna hit you with his stupid hard bread stick.'

It's nine plus volumes long, with the bulk being Ennis indulgently jerking himself off.

I don't find it to be a cop out when it's the main point of the fucking story though.

It is when Butcher is being used as a hero and validated by having one of the handful fo functioning brain cells in universe.

Butcher *is* the main antagonist. That's not me just putting a spin on it.

It is your interpretation. Others may see him as an antihero. In terms of execution.

He is.

stating something over and over doesn't make it true though. But sure, he's the bad guy. I just don't think he's a very good one.

I don't give a single fuck about his opinions. The Boys has it's flaws, sure. It's not a perfect story. I think it has elements, like Butcher, that are well written and worth reading though.

Okay. Good for you. We both agree it's a flawed mess. But so are allot of things. You can enjoy something I consider bad.

I've read comics where Batman was going on a fever dream rant to Robin about how killing can be good and maybe guns aren't so bad after all or comics were Constantine was reduced to a pedophile and dog fucker.

I've read bad comics. On its whole I don't think The Boys is that. It's not the best shit I've ever read, but the opinion of it having no worth and being only slightly above Crossed is a bit much.

I didn't say it was without worth. It's extremely well drawn by Darrick Robertson, there are some solid action scenes, and Ennis pulls off his sick gross out humor such as Huey going down on his girlfriend during her period, only to get a visit.

But no, I don't think it's very good and I resent having stuck with it as long as I did.

 

[JimiHendrix]

First, you don't do your position any favors by attacking me

mate, if i was attacking you, i'd just call you a nigger and be done with it. we're discussing comics, not having a debate or a fist fight, relax.

He doesn't undergo a character arc, he's starts mad, he ends mad. You fucking make my point for me with your whole 'he's whatever he needs to be for his goals' ie he doesn't have depth beyond being a two dimensional revenge plot driver.

said he was manipulative. i don't recall saying he was whatever he needs to be for his goals. think you're misunderstanding my point in talking about how Butcher treats homosexuals, my point was while he may be a cunt and call them faggots and the like in private, he isn't an outright asshole to actually be discriminatory to them in person.

yeah Butcher doesn't have an arc through out the boys, he already had his arc before the story takes place, from his childhood to the war to meeting Becky to losing her was his arc.

At times. At other times empathizes with a dog, Huey, the old Stan Lee stand in, and others.

does he though? it's pointed out, in the story, that Butcher never does anything with out direct reason to do so. The entire timing of him telling Hughie about his wife for example is possibly to manipulate Hughie. The comic is intentionally vague about whether or not Butcher is being genuine in these supposed empathetic moments. with the exception of his dog.

It is when Butcher is being used as a hero and validated by having one of the handful fo functioning brain cells in universe.

i'm not sure you understood the story if you think Butcher was being used as a hero. Multiple characters state how Butcher is kind of a fucking psycho. Mallory for example essentially outright states how Butcher stole the boys for him to create a perpetual war machine, or so he thought.

and if your response is "well the story treats him like a hero" again I'm not sure how the story can treat him as the hero when everyone in said story calls him a rabid psycho.

It is your interpretation. Others may see him as an antagonist. In terms of execution.

did you mean to say others may see him as the villain? either way, no. in terms of what an antagonist is, Butcher is it. He's the primary driving force of the bad things happening in the comic. that's what an antagonist is. a villain and an antagonist are two different things.

stating something over and over doesn't make it true though. But sure, he's the bad guy. I just don't think he's a very good one.

okay, why is he not the antagonist then? just saying something isn't true doesn't mean it isn't. so why is he not the antagonist of the story?

Okay. Good for you. We both agree it's a flawed mess. But so are allot of things. You can enjoy something I consider bad.

and you can think something is bad that I enjoy. i'm not getting personally offended over that.

But no, I don't think it's very good and I resent having stuck with it as long as I did.

sucks to be you then, huh?