💊 Manosphere Jordan Peterson - Internet Daddy Simulator, Post-modern Anti-postmodernist, Canadian Psychology Professor, Depressed, Got Hooked on Benzos

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Gonna need to see a citation on that. I couldn't give two shits about religion myself but the two years I spent in Moscow, I'd say only 1 out of like every 10 people I knew weren't openly religious. Also statistically, according to numbers quoted over on wikipedia, their church is growing year over year.
In 2018, according to a study jointly conducted by London's St Mary's University's Benedict XVI Centre for Religion and Society and the Institut Catholique de Paris, and based on data from the European Social Survey 2014–2016, Christianity is declining in Russia like in Western Europe. Among the 16 to 29 years-old Russians, 41% were Christians (40% Orthodox and 1% Protestant), 10% were of other religions (9% Muslim and 1% other), and 49% were not religious.[40]
 
Society is actually still too religious in general. If society had become so dangerously ''Left'' and irreligious as Jordan used to squawk about in his Kermit voice than why are all these conservative and religious ideas still so dominant?

Most people even if they're loosely religious themselves are tired of all this religious crap being shoved down their throats.
 
Society is actually still too religious in general. If society had become so dangerously ''Left'' and irreligious as Jordan used to squawk about in his Kermit voice than why are all these conservative and religious ideas still so dominant?

Most people even if they're loosely religious themselves are tired of all this religious crap being shoved down their throats.

Because religious people actually have children.

And people are currently far more tired of having leftist and trannycocks getting shoved in their throats. Conservative and religious ideas become more appealing. They'll use the religious cudgel if that keeps their kids out of getting flashed at the library story hour, or their daughters getting beaten by boys at athletics. If only because they don't know what other tool they can wield when academia says "no this is biologically normal and healthy, you troglodyte!"

You can see that exactly in Peterson. He tried to get famous for years, but didn't succeed until he hitched his ideas on resistance to trannyshit.
 
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Society is actually still too religious in general. If society had become so dangerously ''Left'' and irreligious as Jordan used to squawk about in his Kermit voice than why are all these conservative and religious ideas still so dominant?

Most people even if they're loosely religious themselves are tired of all this religious crap being shoved down their throats.

Society is not too religious. Religions started losing their influence in 19th century. I suspect you have a completely different definition of "religious" and "conservative". Both are not dominant right now, and I estimate that maybe 10%-15% Christians are religious in the common sense of this word, I'm talking here about Western world of course.

If the conservative ideas were dominant at the moment you would not have following phenomenons:

The marriage and starting family are both falling precipitously, and if the society was religious and these ideas were dominant as you say, both things would not happen because for religious people getting married is very important.
 
Society is not too religious. Religions started losing their influence in 19th century. I suspect you have a completely different definition of "religious" and "conservative". Both are not dominant right now, and I estimate that maybe 10%-15% Christians are religious in the common sense of this word, I'm talking here about Western world of course.

If the conservative ideas were dominant at the moment you would not have following phenomenons:

The marriage and starting family are both falling precipitously, and if the society was religious and these ideas were dominant as you say, both things would not happen because for religious people getting married is very important.

In Countries like the U.S the Reagan revolution brought a resurgence in Christianity with Jerry Falwell leading this religious brigade. Since the 1980's there has indeed been an uptick in Christianity and it spread here to Canada in the 2000's when the ''Reform Conservatives'' got in and it seemed for a while like many people wouldn't shut up about their religious beliefs

Onto the ''no children'' issue with Millennials. There are many reasons for this. From cost of living to student loans, people are less confident to start families.

Also you can't force people to date. Many even before Corona did not have time. The bulk of Millennials are in their 30's and tend to have long commutes and stressful jobs. You might have better luck with Gen Z...
 
In Countries like the U.S the Reagan revolution brought a resurgence in Christianity with Jerry Falwell leading this religious brigade. Since the 1980's there has indeed been an uptick in Christianity and it spread here to Canada in the 2000's when the ''Reform Conservatives'' got in and it seemed for a while like many people wouldn't shut up about their religious beliefs

Onto the ''no children'' issue with Millennials. There are many reasons for this. From cost of living to student loans, people are less confident to start families.

Also you can't force people to date. Many even before Corona did not have time. The bulk of Millennials are in their 30's and tend to have long commutes and stressful jobs. You might have better luck with Gen Z...

I am not into forcing anyone to do anything. I am just saying that people are not too religious today, and I augmented my argument with statistics related to marriage. For religious people marriage and starting a family are so important, that they are not affected by economic realities. They do it even when they are poor.
 
65 percent of U.S adults are still religious - that's a sizeable number. And those abortion laws in certain states in your country were so strict your wouldn't even find them in Iran (no really, look into it). 30 years for miscarrying a fetus, 99 years in prison for a doctor attempting to abort fetus during an Ectopic pregnancy (a non viable pregnancy). They even are instructed to try to ''stuff it back in'' like a burrito into the uterus - you can't even do that medically. Women trying to travel to another state to receive an abortion will the death penalty. In Iran women getting an illegal abortion before ''ensoulment'' as they call it would only be fined and the doctor only getting a few months in jail. The absolute worst sentence you can get in Iran for abortion is ten years in prison.

To deny the religious extremism in the United States would be very foolish. I don't care if it's just in certain parts of your country, it's there and it could still spread.
 
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I think the decline in children isn't necessarily completely because of a decline in religiosity of the western world.

I think personally the biggest factor, is women no longer need to enter into a relationship with man quickly once they get to 18+ years of age. and they no longer need to have children in order to make sure that relationship sustains past the point where she is able to actually have children.

Secondly, declining wages and increased cost of living means a lot of couples that together are able to live a standard, and very comfortable middle class life, would be forced into a lower class life if they choose to have kids, which is just a tough choice to make. so they wait until they are older and children are easier to handle economically.

Religion and other factors has an impact, but I believe there's an almost entirely direct correlation between birth rates and the modern work force/wages. which has had the greatest impact.
 
I think the decline in children isn't necessarily completely because of a decline in religiosity of the western world.

I think personally the biggest factor, is women no longer need to enter into a relationship with man quickly once they get to 18+ years of age. and they no longer need to have children in order to make sure that relationship sustains past the point where she is able to actually have children.

Secondly, declining wages and increased cost of living means a lot of couples that together are able to live a standard, and very comfortable middle class life, would be forced into a lower class life if they choose to have kids, which is just a tough choice to make. so they wait until they are older and children are easier to handle economically.

Religion and other factors has an impact, but I believe there's an almost entirely direct correlation between birth rates and the modern work force/wages. which has had the greatest impact.

I would completely agree with you if I didn't see with my own eyes, that despite the modern work force/wages religious people still have more children, comparing to not religious.

Edit to add:

I think there is a misunderstanding here what religious means. It doesn't mean simple belief in Gcd or even attending church/synagogue services. It means letting religion set the directions how you live your life. In this regard, for vast majority of Western world religion lost its value and force. This is the process that started in 19th century, 'member Nietzsche? "Gcd is dead"?
 
I think there is a misunderstanding here what religious means. It doesn't mean simple belief in Gcd or even attending church/synagogue services. It means letting religion set the directions how you live your life. In this regard, for vast majority of Western world religion lost its value and force. This is the process that started in 19th century, 'member Nietzsche? "Gcd is dead"?
Anecdotal evidence, obviously, but here's my two cents: I know quite a few catholic people who are "devout believers". They regularly go to mass, donate some of their hard-earned money, have a quote from the Bible for every occasion, etc. Yet they don't seem to live their lives according to the Book they allegedly know by heart. Some of them are pettier than their less devout or atheist neighbours (in the biblical sense), are more occupied with keeping up a respectable and favourable appearence than being either, and will sin without a second thought. "I'll just confess to it next sunday and get absolution."

The protestants around here seem to have a healthier relationship with their religion for some reason, but they aren't above posturing for political gains and favours either.

Juice are a very mixed bag, ranging from the almost derangedly observant orthodoxes to the non-religious strictly political Jooz. Then there are those hilarious cases when a rabid neo-nazi discovers their hidden kosher origins, and turn into just as rabid zionists. They learn Hebrew and Yiddish, take up a new name, then either move to Israel or become lobbyists often having the polar opposites of their old opinions and agendas. "Mandatory registration and publicly accessible registry for every Jooish politician" becomes "The gov't needs a stronger grip on anti-semitic extremists, and publish a list of suspected neo-nazis, updated every month".

Usually Muslims and Hare Krishnas are the most devout and dedicated, but those aren't Western religions.
 
Juice are a very mixed bag, ranging from the almost derangedly observant orthodoxes to the non-religious strictly political Jooz. Then there are those hilarious cases when a rabid neo-nazi discovers their hidden kosher origins, and turn into just as rabid zionists. They learn Hebrew and Yiddish, take up a new name, then either move to Israel or become lobbyists often having the polar opposites of their old opinions and agendas. "Mandatory registration and publicly accessible registry for every Jooish politician" becomes "The gov't needs a stronger grip on anti-semitic extremists, and publish a list of suspected neo-nazis, updated every month".

Usually Muslims and Hare Krishnas are the most devout and dedicated, but those aren't Western religions.

I know personally a couple who met at a camp for skinheads and later they both discovered their Jewish roots, and just like you said they became Ultra-Orthodox. However, they mellowed down with age.
 
Whether the average random on the street admits it or not, people crave some kind of structure and meaning in their lives. Religion gave the public that, and while the youtube atheists were right in the inherent illogic of a lot of it, most people are not content to disrupt a system if it's perfectly serviceable for them. Look at the famous atheists of the beginning of the century. How many were normal people with family? I can't think of any. They were invariably gay, a bachelor of some description, or the type to earn their own thread on this very forum. They were never going to assimilate to the societal mode anyway, so what difference does it make to them if it all gets torn down?

The problem, and this is something to Peterson's credit he at least admits, is that a society with no shared values or principles isn't a society anymore. And an atheistic society is more of a transitory state than a solid end-point. You see it now with the SJWs, the alt-right, and the niche identities young people cling to now to give themselves something to fight for.
This happened in every generation but without a bedrock of society, you've got millions teetering on this tightrope of simultaneously being apathetic about death-- since their spiritualism is non-existent, while also being petrified of not leaving a big fat mark on the world, since the implication is a dark unconscious oblivion at the end of all this.
The spinsters 100 years ago that talked shit about the family who didn't attend church? Their descendants are the ones rambling about pronouns and cancel culture. It's the same neurosis, only today, those energies are socially destructive rather than reinforcing anything.
Same with the incel and the race theory spergs. In days gone by they would have been shunted off into a monastary and got to perform at least some kind of social good, learning off every obscure saint and feast day to make everybody feel better, rather than being ridiculed outcasts with a victim complex.

As for everybody else? This isn't the first time in history wages have been stagnant, or the future looked precarious, or there was declining collective bargaining power. Difference now is the support structures that helped everybody cope somewhat have been eroded. As in, having a caring family, or knowing your neighbours well, or lending people cash when they need it without expecting immediate compensation, that's all been maligned as low status and provincial. I saw a show about saving money before Christmas there, and one of the ways the financial adviser suggested a single-mum save cash (note; not get out of debt, not fix the income deficit, they were past that bit, but raw, saving up money for a trip abroad later that year) was to charge her teenage son rent. That kid didn't have a job, and if he has potential he ought to be channelling his energies into studying to get into college, not be made to work weekends so his mum can get a holiday. But when you view all your relationships through neoliberalism, everything is transactional. And that mindset is exactly what destroys the type of bonds that money can't replace.

In short, 'Clean Your Room' is like the atheism wave. It works if everybody does it, but most people won't, so you gotta think of ways to uplift everybody if you genuinely want to improve the world you're living in. It's Reaganomics taken self-help form. So from that angle I can't say Jordan Peterson's teachings are all that helpful going forward.
 
Look at the famous atheists of the beginning of the century. How many were normal people with family? I can't think of any. They were invariably gay, a bachelor of some description, or the type to earn their own thread on this very forum. They were never going to assimilate to the societal mode anyway, so what difference does it make to them if it all gets torn down?
Often see the reverse: very politically liberal people with personally very conservative values. Married at a young age, wife stay-at-home "self-employed", only socialize with other married couples with similar cultural backgrounds. But mock and belittle conservative families who do the same.
 
Often see the reverse: very politically liberal people with personally very conservative values. Married at a young age, wife stay-at-home "self-employed", only socialize with other married couples with similar cultural backgrounds. But mock and belittle conservative families who do the same.
Most of the virtue signalling talking heads and tech moguls are exactly like this. Politically ultra-liberal and ultra-progressive, economically and financially ultra-conservative. "Yeah, I support open borders and single-payer state-funded healthcare. Who's gonna foot the bill? Not me, taxation is theft, fuck off!"
Advocating for the crapification of everyday life while staying in their cozy homes in their walled communities.
Advocating for ever stricter gun control while having their own private security details.
"Non-conventional beauty is the new norm, preferences are transphobic and racist, so suck off that fat black tranny, you bigot! Now excuse me, I've gotta go and fuck my thin, fair-skinned wife real good."

I really hope this blatant hypocrisy will bite them in the ass someday. A man can dream.
 
Kind of a random thought but Jordan probably did some diagnostic work as a psychologist at one point. Unless he was privately operating (selectively dealing with patients who could pay out of pocket) he would be mandated by OHIP to diagnose and treat some pretty severely mentally ill people. It's interesting how a psychologist of all people was getting into political debates promoting unfettered capitalism. Jordan knows his patients are f*cked by this type of system, so what gives?

There are Schizophrenic's eating out of garbage cans and sleeping in bins in Canada (as with many other countries). The system has really let these people down. Does he even give a fuck about anyone?

I have to ask, compared to what? How schizophrenics have been treated in communist countries? In dictatorships? Your logic of JBP likes capitalism, ergo JBP doesn't care about people hinges not even on capitalism being bad for society, but requires that Peterson himself believe that capitalism be bad for society. Otherwise even were it bad for society the worst it would make Peterson would be misguided. You're building a tower of assumptions here to hang JBP from.
 
I have to ask, compared to what? How schizophrenics have been treated in communist countries? In dictatorships? Your logic of JBP likes capitalism, ergo JBP doesn't care about people hinges not even on capitalism being bad for society, but requires that Peterson himself believe that capitalism be bad for society. Otherwise even were it bad for society the worst it would make Peterson would be misguided. You're building a tower of assumptions here to hang JBP from.

I won't get into too much about my experiences but the recent effects of this particular type of conservatism that I'm critical of have ghettoized communities. There are now all these people out on the street and a dirty-ness, grit that you'd never see in Canada one decade ago in certain cities. I was somewhere yesterday that I haven't been to in years.. and to be honest I'm still in shock at the state of this place. Austerity is creating ghettos.
 
I won't get into too much about my experiences but the recent effects of this particular type of conservatism that I'm critical of have ghettoized communities. There are now all these people out on the street and a dirty-ness, grit that you'd never see in Canada one decade ago in certain cities. I was somewhere yesterday that I haven't been to in years.. and to be honest I'm still in shock at the state of this place. Austerity is creating ghettos.

Surely the conservatism that has been in power in Canada is to blame for changes the recent years.

They won the last two elections after all.

2019
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2015
IMG_20200516_082113.png
 
Society is actually still too religious in general. If society had become so dangerously ''Left'' and irreligious as Jordan used to squawk about in his Kermit voice than why are all these conservative and religious ideas still so dominant?

Most people even if they're loosely religious themselves are tired of all this religious crap being shoved down their throats.
Society is not too religious. Religions started losing their influence in 19th century. I suspect you have a completely different definition of "religious" and "conservative". Both are not dominant right now, and I estimate that maybe 10%-15% Christians are religious in the common sense of this word, I'm talking here about Western world of course.

If the conservative ideas were dominant at the moment you would not have following phenomenons:

The marriage and starting family are both falling precipitously, and if the society was religious and these ideas were dominant as you say, both things would not happen because for religious people getting married is very important.

The question of whether or not society is "too religious" fundamentally depends upon the perspective you're coming from. To a staunch atheist who believes that religion is a net harm to society, any amount of religiousity is arguably too much, whereas to an ultra-conservative fundamentalist, anything short of theocracy is heresy. The differences between these two perspectives cannot be settled factually, because they cannot be removed from their respective value systems.

The main problem with Peterson, in my view, is not that he advances a particular religious perspective (or lack thereof), rather the opposite in fact: he's an obscurantist who isn't willing to commit himself to an intelligible position. He pontificates glibly, hoping to have his cake and eat it too.
 
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The main problem with Peterson, in my view, is not that he advances a particular religious perspective (or lack thereof), rather the opposite in fact: he's an obscurantist who isn't willing to commit himself to an intelligible position. He pontificates glibly, hoping to have his cake and eat it too.

I think even this is too much. He's essentially a glorified self-help author.
 
The main problem with Peterson, in my view, is not that he advances a particular religious perspective (or lack thereof), rather the opposite in fact: he's an obscurantist who isn't willing to commit himself to an intelligible position. He pontificates glibly, hoping to have his cake and eat it too.
I was going to say the problem with Peterson is that he's a drug addicted crypto-Leftist, but when you put it that way...
 
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