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The Last Stand said:
Tell me a time when immigrants from Ellis Island and California tried to leech off their new country's resources. Although the Italian created the Mafia after Mass immigration, immigrants respected the chance to assimilate into the new lifestyle.
<snip>
Not to mention that they aren't contributing much to the well-being of the society they want to migrate to. Positively at least.
Click to expand...

This is something that really annoys me. I am very firmly anti-illegal immigration, with the operative word there being illegal. I am also very supportive of legal immigration. The USA is a nation of immigrants, except for the small fraction of those who are Native American. I think the USA is the greatest nation on the planet, and I think it is for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it is a melting pot of thousands of cultures, nations, and ethnicities.

When a foreigner comes to America, they are coming here because they think that life, for whatever reason, will be better in the USA than wherever it was they were coming from. With that in mind, it behooves them to adapt to the culture they are entering, not maintain their old culture. By all means, they should put their own spin on it, but they should broadly conform to the American ethos. (This can also be applied to interstate travelers, looking at you California)

This is a main reason why I think all Americans should speak English. America is a land of free speech, enshrined into our Constitution by the 1st Amendment, but what is the use of free speech if those to whom you are speaking cannot understand you? Public discourse requires comprehension by all participants, else we are merely speaking into the void, validating our narcissism by the empty repetition of useless rhetoric.

Whenever I state this position however, I am called xenophobic and anti-immigration. (Typically by people who have never lived outside the US, which I find ironic, given that I have lived more outside the US than within.) Why should immigrants be required to obey the law of the land they wish to live in? Why should they need to speak the language of that same country? Both are questions that I have seen raised by (previously) respected institutions and are stated, though perhaps in modified language, even in the halls of Congress.

Increasingly I find myself more and more receptive to truly xenophobic positions, such as The Wall for example, since I will be grouped in with those in favor of them whether or not I subscribe to their tenets. I don't want to be isolationist, but every time Ilhan Omar opens her mouth, I feel a bit more Islamophobic.
 
The Last Stand said:
Tell me a time when immigrants from Ellis Island and California tried to leech off their new country's resources. Although the Italian created the Mafia after Mass immigration, immigrants respected the chance to assimilate into the new lifestyle.

It pains me to say, but the reason there is a Muslim country ban because those countries are ripe with xenophobia against Western culture. Several high ranking members from those areas wish to destroy and take over Western civilization, all while internally sabotaging their own population.

Not to mention that they aren't contributing much to the well-being of the society they want to migrate to. Positively at least.
Click to expand...
You mentioned the Mafia, but honestly you could make the argument that the Italians didn't so much create the Mafia as did prohibition.
 
MementoMalum said:
The USA is a nation of immigrants
Click to expand...
No. Stop.

The US hasn't been "a nation of immigrants" since the early 19th century. Aside from very specific special circumstances (I.e. anchor babies and the like), if you are born here, you are a native, full stop.
 
mr.moon1488 said:
You mentioned the Mafia, but honestly you could make the argument that the Italians didn't so much create the Mafia as did prohibition.
Click to expand...

True, and there was also the Irish Mob as well.

However, before Prohibition, the Italian Mafia and the Irish Mob of the late 1800's and early 1900's was mainly the purview of recently arrived immigrants and maybe their immediate children and their ranks were few in numbers, but Prohibition was such a boon to organized crime across the board that both organizations became multi-generational and by the time of the great mob crackdowns in the 1980's and early 1990's, both were largely comprised almost entirely of American-born members whose families had been in the United States for several generations.

Ironically, the Italian Mafia nowadays has more members actually from Italy than it did twenty to thirty years ago, thanks to all those "Zips" who fled charges in Italy and Sicily to work for the New York and New Jersey crime families in the 80's and 90's, many of whom filled the power vacuum that was left when guys like Gotti and Gigante were taken down by the big FBI crackdowns.
 
MementoMalum said:
Increasingly I find myself more and more receptive to truly xenophobic positions, such as The Wall for example, since I will be grouped in with those in favor of them whether or not I subscribe to their tenets. I don't want to be isolationist, but every time Ilhan Omar opens her mouth, I feel a bit more Islamophobic.
Click to expand...
>xenophobic
>Islamophobic

Creating a border barrier isn't "xenophobic," it's arguably basic statecraft. And all "Islamophobia" means nowadays is "being a non-Muslim who has an understanding of Islam that isn't sanitized by the media and Islamic apologists".
 
MementoMalum said:
This is something that really annoys me. I am very firmly anti-illegal immigration, with the operative word there being illegal. I am also very supportive of legal immigration. The USA is a nation of immigrants, except for the small fraction of those who are Native American. I think the USA is the greatest nation on the planet, and I think it is for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it is a melting pot of thousands of cultures, nations, and ethnicities.

When a foreigner comes to America, they are coming here because they think that life, for whatever reason, will be better in the USA than wherever it was they were coming from. With that in mind, it behooves them to adapt to the culture they are entering, not maintain their old culture. By all means, they should put their own spin on it, but they should broadly conform to the American ethos. (This can also be applied to interstate travelers, looking at you California)

This is a main reason why I think all Americans should speak English. America is a land of free speech, enshrined into our Constitution by the 1st Amendment, but what is the use of free speech if those to whom you are speaking cannot understand you? Public discourse requires comprehension by all participants, else we are merely speaking into the void, validating our narcissism by the empty repetition of useless rhetoric.

Whenever I state this position however, I am called xenophobic and anti-immigration. (Typically by people who have never lived outside the US, which I find ironic, given that I have lived more outside the US than within.) Why should immigrants be required to obey the law of the land they wish to live in? Why should they need to speak the language of that same country? Both are questions that I have seen raised by (previously) respected institutions and are stated, though perhaps in modified language, even in the halls of Congress.

Increasingly I find myself more and more receptive to truly xenophobic positions, such as The Wall for example, since I will be grouped in with those in favor of them whether or not I subscribe to their tenets. I don't want to be isolationist, but every time Ilhan Omar opens her mouth, I feel a bit more Islamophobic.
Click to expand...
Spoilering because long.
The stupidity of the "nation of immigrants" argument is that it can be applied to literally every country that has ever existed. All nations have the same basic beginnings: a group of people doesn't like where they are for whatever reason, so they pack up and head out to start their own country with blackjack and hookers. It's this immigration pattern that formed tribes, settlements, cities, states, and nations for thousands of years, and every single human being is a descendant of some immigrant at some point. Even if you can trace your family history back centuries in the same location, someone inevitably had to move there to begin with.

Even if you just want to make the argument that the US is a "nation of immigrants" because of all the European settlers who founded it, you have to extend the argument to every other nation in the Americas. Canada, Mexico, the countries of Central and South America and the Caribbean: all of these are also nations founded by European colonists, yet nobody ever calls them "nations of immigrants." It's only ever the United States.

To be fair, America is different. It was a nation that was set up in a unique way, a grand experiment in Enlightenment ideals of individual liberties and self-governance. And it's been remarkably successful on the whole, especially when compared to many other nations. That success has driven millions of people to immigrate to this country over the years, for good reason.

But as you said, there's a major difference between the immigrants of the past and the immigrants of today. Before, those that came were looking for opportunities that their home countries couldn't provide, and for many (my ancestors included), the biggest opportunity was all the land that was available for homesteading. Put succinctly, a family farm that was divided up to descendants over many generations eventually left you with only a scrap of land to your name, so it was a no-brainer to move to America and be able to claim dozens of acres for yourself and your family. Immigrants worked hard, learned English, and raised their kids in the same manner. They would still keep their traditions alive, they wouldn't forget who they had been, but they knew they were Americans first, and they were proud of that fact.

Along the way, though, the attitudes shifted, both from immigrants themselves and native-born Americans. Assimilation stopped being the goal because it was considered insensitive to expect people to "give up their culture," even though nobody was asking them to do that, just learn how to easily interact with their fellow citizens. You also have the general leftist dogma of how "America was never great," that there's truly nothing special about this country, how it's caused all kinds of awful things and is no better than any other nation on the planet. Standard postmodernist thought: nothing is objectively better than anything else.

Without the expectation of assimilation, various groups became insular, never really considering themselves American (the Somali enclaves in Minnesota being a noteworthy example in recent memory because of Omar). They're told of all the bad things America has been responsible for and see no desire to claim that label. They speak their native tongues and learn little English, they form communities within their communities, and they become xenophobic to those who should be their fellow men. And while not all, there are certainly those who come to take advantage of the welfare state that's been built up over the past few decades, welfare that their home countries couldn't compete with.

The net result of all this is that instead of the melting pot, we've become a salad bowl. Instead of immigrants of different cultures adding subtle touches to our overall societal fabric, it's identity politics making people see themselves as Mexican-Americans, or Chinese-Americans, or Indian-Americans, or [insert nationality here]-Americans. And with such a high inflow of immigrants every year, the problem only gets worse as the failures to assimilate stack up.

While Trump has been making strides with regards to immigration (border enforcement measures and asylum changes, the immigration rule to prove you won't immediately go on welfare), I still fear that lasting changes will be difficult if not impossible. A Democrat president and/or Congress could tear down the policies he's worked to set up, should they ever find themselves in a position of power. While I'm not a firm believer in the "demographics is destiny" meme, there's a definite trend in districts with high immigrant populations voting blue, so it could certainly end up a reality. We'll just have to see what the future holds.
tl;dr: Build the wall, Omar can go back to Somalia if she hates America so much.
 
MementoMalum said:
This is something that really annoys me. I am very firmly anti-illegal immigration, with the operative word there being illegal. I am also very supportive of legal immigration. The USA is a nation of immigrants, except for the small fraction of those who are Native American. I think the USA is the greatest nation on the planet, and I think it is for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it is a melting pot of thousands of cultures, nations, and ethnicities.

When a foreigner comes to America, they are coming here because they think that life, for whatever reason, will be better in the USA than wherever it was they were coming from. With that in mind, it behooves them to adapt to the culture they are entering, not maintain their old culture. By all means, they should put their own spin on it, but they should broadly conform to the American ethos. (This can also be applied to interstate travelers, looking at you California)

This is a main reason why I think all Americans should speak English. America is a land of free speech, enshrined into our Constitution by the 1st Amendment, but what is the use of free speech if those to whom you are speaking cannot understand you? Public discourse requires comprehension by all participants, else we are merely speaking into the void, validating our narcissism by the empty repetition of useless rhetoric.

Whenever I state this position however, I am called xenophobic and anti-immigration. (Typically by people who have never lived outside the US, which I find ironic, given that I have lived more outside the US than within.) Why should immigrants be required to obey the law of the land they wish to live in? Why should they need to speak the language of that same country? Both are questions that I have seen raised by (previously) respected institutions and are stated, though perhaps in modified language, even in the halls of Congress.

Increasingly I find myself more and more receptive to truly xenophobic positions, such as The Wall for example, since I will be grouped in with those in favor of them whether or not I subscribe to their tenets. I don't want to be isolationist, but every time Ilhan Omar opens her mouth, I feel a bit more Islamophobic.
Click to expand...

The wall isn't xenophobic. Look at the thread in A&H about the number of people missing in Mexico. That place needs a wall.

mr.moon1488 said:
You mentioned the Mafia, but honestly you could make the argument that the Italians didn't so much create the Mafia as did prohibition.
Click to expand...

That and the Great Depression. The first gave the ghetto ethnic groups a way to become filthy rich by dishonest gains, and the second froze Italians into the lower class for an extra generation.
 
Black people then after Reconstruction had tried, some succeeded, to get a piece of the American prosperity. Work hard, start a family, own land. But, because of racial discrimination and bullshit laws, that reality was easier said than done. Until Blacks had to fight to be treated as equals.
 
MsStevieMarie said:
If Trump was Nazi dictator they so desperately want him to be none of them would be mouthing off like they have because he'd be putting them in the fucking ground... Much like their beloved Hilary does. This isn't a resistance, it's a fucking temper tantrum and even toddler's tantrum don't go on for this long.
Click to expand...

It just shows how crazy the left is. The fact that the Republicans are trying to drag each other down the drain, caused the Democrats to be like, "Hey, lets show the world our real face. No one would care."

But because of that, their disbelief that they are sane, keeps themselves insane. Which is why #itwasherturn and #orangemanbad are used to try and sway the public. You'd think for people claiming to be smart, they act surprised when they get caught lying.
 
Iwasamwillbe said:
Creating a border barrier isn't "xenophobic," it's arguably basic statecraft.
Click to expand...
Shield Breaker said:
The wall isn't xenophobic. Look at the thread in A&H about the number of people missing in Mexico. That place needs a wall.
Click to expand...
Let me clarify: a border wall by itself is not xenophobic. The rhetoric surrounding Trump's border wall, on the other hand, felt like, if not exactly xenophobia in the strict sense, that it was veering dangerously close to it. I will note that much of this was not Trump, but more his very enthusiastic followers.

As for the "nation of immigrants" line, I think it has more to do with timeframe. There is an old saying: "Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance". Where many people in the Old World (Eurasia and Africa) can trace family lineage back several centuries in one place, Americans can rarely go more than a hundred or so years. This makes the immigration feel more fresh in the cultural memory.
 
heyitsmike said:
No, you dolts. Trump doesn't actually believe 'genius' is spelled with a 'j'.

Someone had the perfect take, which sums it up well:
Click to expand...
If there's a joke in that, I don't get it. Just that Trump isn't good at spelling.

poQxTe3.jpg
 
MementoMalum said:
This is a main reason why I think all Americans should speak English. America is a land of free speech, enshrined into our Constitution by the 1st Amendment, but what is the use of free speech if those to whom you are speaking cannot understand you?
Click to expand...
This has always confused the fuck out of me.

If you want to live in Italy, you’re expected to learn Italian. If you want to live in France, you’re expected to learn French. If you want to live in Germany, you’re expected to learn German. If you want to live in Japan, you’re expected to learn Japanese.

Yet, expecting people who want to live in America to learn English is somehow bigoted, xenophobic, nationalistic or otherwise culturally insensitive. Never mind that this line of thinking ended up screwing over immigrants; because they were never encouraged to learn English, they could never get better opportunities throughout the other states and stayed stuck inside their personal communities.

King Dead said:
Spoilering because long.
The stupidity of the "nation of immigrants" argument is that it can be applied to literally every country that has ever existed. All nations have the same basic beginnings: a group of people doesn't like where they are for whatever reason, so they pack up and head out to start their own country with blackjack and hookers. It's this immigration pattern that formed tribes, settlements, cities, states, and nations for thousands of years, and every single human being is a descendant of some immigrant at some point. Even if you can trace your family history back centuries in the same location, someone inevitably had to move there to begin with.

Even if you just want to make the argument that the US is a "nation of immigrants" because of all the European settlers who founded it, you have to extend the argument to every other nation in the Americas. Canada, Mexico, the countries of Central and South America and the Caribbean: all of these are also nations founded by European colonists, yet nobody ever calls them "nations of immigrants." It's only ever the United States.

To be fair, America is different. It was a nation that was set up in a unique way, a grand experiment in Enlightenment ideals of individual liberties and self-governance. And it's been remarkably successful on the whole, especially when compared to many other nations. That success has driven millions of people to immigrate to this country over the years, for good reason.

But as you said, there's a major difference between the immigrants of the past and the immigrants of today. Before, those that came were looking for opportunities that their home countries couldn't provide, and for many (my ancestors included), the biggest opportunity was all the land that was available for homesteading. Put succinctly, a family farm that was divided up to descendants over many generations eventually left you with only a scrap of land to your name, so it was a no-brainer to move to America and be able to claim dozens of acres for yourself and your family. Immigrants worked hard, learned English, and raised their kids in the same manner. They would still keep their traditions alive, they wouldn't forget who they had been, but they knew they were Americans first, and they were proud of that fact.

Along the way, though, the attitudes shifted, both from immigrants themselves and native-born Americans. Assimilation stopped being the goal because it was considered insensitive to expect people to "give up their culture," even though nobody was asking them to do that, just learn how to easily interact with their fellow citizens. You also have the general leftist dogma of how "America was never great," that there's truly nothing special about this country, how it's caused all kinds of awful things and is no better than any other nation on the planet. Standard postmodernist thought: nothing is objectively better than anything else.

Without the expectation of assimilation, various groups became insular, never really considering themselves American (the Somali enclaves in Minnesota being a noteworthy example in recent memory because of Omar). They're told of all the bad things America has been responsible for and see no desire to claim that label. They speak their native tongues and learn little English, they form communities within their communities, and they become xenophobic to those who should be their fellow men. And while not all, there are certainly those who come to take advantage of the welfare state that's been built up over the past few decades, welfare that their home countries couldn't compete with.

The net result of all this is that instead of the melting pot, we've become a salad bowl. Instead of immigrants of different cultures adding subtle touches to our overall societal fabric, it's identity politics making people see themselves as Mexican-Americans, or Chinese-Americans, or Indian-Americans, or [insert nationality here]-Americans. And with such a high inflow of immigrants every year, the problem only gets worse as the failures to assimilate stack up.

While Trump has been making strides with regards to immigration (border enforcement measures and asylum changes, the immigration rule to prove you won't immediately go on welfare), I still fear that lasting changes will be difficult if not impossible. A Democrat president and/or Congress could tear down the policies he's worked to set up, should they ever find themselves in a position of power. While I'm not a firm believer in the "demographics is destiny" meme, there's a definite trend in districts with high immigrant populations voting blue, so it could certainly end up a reality. We'll just have to see what the future holds.
tl;dr: Build the wall, Omar can go back to Somalia if she hates America so much.
Click to expand...
My history professor once made a similar point to this and I am forever regretful I didn’t heed his words more.
Identity politics and anti American sentiment has managed to leave this country more tribalistic than when the Natives were still in charge.
 
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Private Pyle said:
If you want to live in Italy, you’re expected to learn Italian. If you want to live in France, you’re expected to learn French. If you want to live in Germany, you’re expected to learn German. If you want to live in Japan, you’re expected to learn Japanese.
Click to expand...
Even more baffling is that international exchange students are REQUIRED to have a proficent understanding of English before even coming to college. And they still take ESL courses. I've met exchange students whose English is better than those who live in America.
 
The Last Stand said:
Black people then after Reconstruction had tried, some succeeded, to get a piece of the American prosperity. Work hard, start a family, own land. But, because of racial discrimination and bullshit laws, that reality was easier said than done. Until Blacks had to fight to be treated as equals.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and the thing was, Black people considered themselves Americans.
 
So remember that asshole who runs that annoying "God" Twitter account? He's been doxed and to the surprise of nobody he's Ben Spierenberg a Jewish Antifa activist from Seattle.
 
Ruin said:
So remember that asshole who runs that annoying "God" Twitter account? He's been doxed and to the surprise of nobody he's Ben Spierenberg a Jewish Antifa activist from Seattle.
Click to expand...
And you're not posting the dox here?
 
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