Comicsgate Hangers-On and Drama Whores - A thread about some guy who's mad about Star Wars and the neckbeards obsessively stalking him

[Nippy]

Who would want that?

Most people in mainstream comics work on a serial product for monthly delivery. That system produces a lot of rubbish and is subject to all kinds of manipulative practices that decrease the value of the product. There are mass publications with an average circulation of less than 40k and average monthly attrition rate of 17% - which means very little profit, no customer loyalty, frequent cancellations and loss of talent. If this was Hearst Publishing, every one of these titles would have been cancelled by now.

Ethan isn't trying to duplicate the 'professional' practices he's been railing against for years. Cyberfrog emphasizes quality and profitability over other factors, it's a creative effort that he's taken on while also working out the business practices of self-publishing (which are significant.) He's delivering much sooner than 90% of other crowdfunded comics campaigns - for that matter, he's actually delivering, which doesn't always happen.

EVS has no moral obligation to work on the book to the exclusion of everything else in his life. His YouTube channel is performance marketing that has expanded the audience for many books and increased the value of the creative community of self-publishers. That's a good thing. Having a larger audience means there will be additional Cyberfrog books in the future. It also means he's proving the model for self-publishing can be more profitable than the mainstream, which encourages other talent to consider doing the same. Instead of eating cat food.

Comicsgate is supposed to be about breaking free from a mainstream system that fails to consistently deliver value. Concern trolling about deadlines sounds like the kind of complaint that would come from an editor at Marvel. Funny how many people are raising this issue today.

If the missed deadlines are really that much of a problem, just cancel so I can buy your copy.

That's all well and good but if time and enthusiasm and passion are at the forefront then make sure the product is finished before soliciting it. Opposing subpar product on a deadline shouldn't mean saying fuck deadlines altogether. Comics might not be doing well now but it's also a medium that was forged on consumer expectation, expecting to go to the shop every Wednesday to get the latest issue of this or that.

 

[Ivan Shatov]

That's all well and good but if time and enthusiasm and passion are at the forefront then make sure the product is finished before soliciting it. Opposing subpar product on a deadline shouldn't mean saying fuck deadlines altogether. Comics might not be doing well now but it's also a medium that was forged on consumer expectation, expecting to go to the shop every Wednesday to get the latest issue of this or that.

You attach an exceptional importance to deadlines.

Sir, if deadlines actually mean so much to you, why would back any crowdfunded creative project? The vast majority miss deadlines by more than 12 months. You certainly know that.

For that matter, if the ritual of going to a comics shop every Wednesday is so important to you, I wonder why you would care about Comicsgate? No CG titles are distributed through the direct market, and (clearly) consumers are disappointed with the model.

 

[Captain Ramius]

Ethan isn't trying to duplicate the 'professional' practices he's been railing against for years. Cyberfrog emphasizes quality and profitability over other factors, it's a creative effort that he's taken on while also working out the business practices of self-publishing (which are significant.) He's delivering much sooner than 90% of other crowdfunded comics campaigns - for that matter, he's actually delivering, which doesn't always happen.

"Other factors" like...a prompt delivery on a promised good. See, most of the Kickstarters I've backed over the years give you an idea of when the product is going to be delivered and keep you up to date on any delays so that you don't feel like you're being screwed by someone who took your money.

EVS has no moral obligation to work on the book to the exclusion of everything else in his life. His YouTube channel is performance marketing that has expanded the audience for many books and increased the value of the creative community of self-publishers. That's a good thing. Having a larger audience means there will be additional Cyberfrog books in the future. It also means he's proving the model for self-publishing can be more profitable than the mainstream, which encourages other talent to consider doing the same. Instead of eating cat food.

Another great way to grow your audience is to deliver on the promised goods. People will say, "Hey, I got this comic from EVS via the IndieGoGo Campaign, take a look at the art, it's awesome. The story is great, exciting, fun. I'm gonna be backing his next one and you should too!"
People will see that, maybe become intrigued and then you've got more people for the next one.
A restaurant isn't going to get a bigger clientele when it takes four hours to get you your main course because the Chef is in the back making videos to show people at home how to make the perfect cheesecake.
You're like the prissy French maitre'd telling the annoyed customers, "Excuse me but chef is working very hard and if you do not want the food, then I will eat it!"
You're not thinking about the people who have grown frustrated at all the delays, cancelled the pledges, gotten refunds who are probably telling people they know not to bother with backing EVS in the future.

Comicsgate is supposed to be about breaking free from a mainstream system that fails to consistently deliver value. Concern trolling about deadlines sounds like the kind of complaint that would come from an editor at Marvel. Funny how many people are raising this issue today.

If the missed deadlines are really that much of a problem, just cancel so I can buy your copy.

There are tons of people who are breaking free of the mainstream system, doing their own comics, telling their own stories who can still get their stuff out on time.
And please, this is not trolling. Asking a former comic pro, "Hey, where's that comic you promised?" is not trolling, it's holding him accountable for all the money he was given.
And the reason so many people are raising this issue is because they're tired of waiting.

 

[verissimus]

I just love the fact that I got banned from that thread for one post while others who have been continuously been sperging there, haven't. Also I love the fact that much of what I said has come to pass except for Jim making a video about the fall of comicsgate, but hey given the cast of characters still involved, it could still happen.

As a side note, I'd just like to say almost all of this bruhaha could have been avoided had EVS kept a professional distance from the virulent Anti-SJW fans/grifters and not virtually crowned himself king of CG. All he and others had to do was create and push for independently made comics and perhaps cover major comic news/disasters like in particular the Meyer vs. Waid suit, but instead we have egotism, e-celeb drama BS, and anti-SJW sperging pervert things.

 

[Nippy]

Sir, if deadlines actually mean so much to you, why would back any crowdfunded creative project? The vast majority miss deadlines by more than 12 months. You certainly know that.

And the vast majority never come out with another project again. People who want to do this consistently, should be relatively on time.

For that matter, if the ritual of going to a comics shop every Wednesday is so important to you, I wonder why you would care about Comicsgate? No CG titles are distributed through the direct market, and (clearly) consumers are disappointed with the model.

It's not important to me, but it was important to establishing the medium. If you weren't putting so much effort into being mad on the internet you might be able to read better.

 

[Ivan Shatov]

"Other factors" like...a prompt delivery on a promised good. See, most of the Kickstarters I've backed over the years give you an idea of when the product is going to be delivered and keep you up to date on any delays so that you don't feel like you're being screwed by someone who took your money.

There have been updates on progress several times a week on his YouTube channel since before the campaign started.

Another great way to grow your audience is to deliver on the promised goods. People will say, "Hey, I got this comic from EVS via the IndieGoGo Campaign, take a look at the art, it's awesome. The story is great, exciting, fun. I'm gonna be backing his next one and you should too!"
People will see that, maybe become intrigued and then you've got more people for the next one.
A restaurant isn't going to get a bigger clientele when it takes four hours to get you your main course because the Chef is in the back making videos to show people at home how to make the perfect cheesecake.
You're like the prissy French maitre'd telling the annoyed customers, "Excuse me but chef is working very hard and if you do not want the food, then I will eat it!"
You're not thinking about the people who have grown frustrated at all the delays, cancelled the pledges, gotten refunds who are probably telling people they know not to bother with backing EVS in the future.

Really, I'm just noticing an awful lot of effort going into complaining about a $25 comic book. It's conspicuous because it's happening at a time when the creator has been showing off proofs of the title he's about to ship.

Sounds like a gay op.

There are tons of people who are breaking free of the mainstream system, doing their own comics, telling their own stories who can still get their stuff out on time.
And please, this is not trolling. Asking a former comic pro, "Hey, where's that comic you promised?" is not trolling, it's holding him accountable for all the money he was given.
And the reason so many people are raising this issue is because they're tired of waiting.

Commercial success in comic books is pretty rare. Most of the artists / writers I know have no savings, live with roommates or have a spouse who pays all the bills. Most of them are afraid to speak critically of the system because it will get them blacklisted. Some of them actually have been and devote years of their lives trying to get back in instead of doing something constructive.

Help me understand who the tons of people are that are breaking away from the mainstream system and making more than they would working minimum wage. I can think of a handful who actually matter and they're mostly Comicsgate.

 

[UndeliveredCrowdfundMaste]

Ethan isn't trying to duplicate the 'professional' practices he's been railing against for years.

Is that why he charged more for a Cullen Bunn reprint than for Cyberfrog, with 3 more variant covers of a book that already had 10 variant covers? And now he's doing a variant for Priest Vampirella that already has over 80 covers? He's selling something that anyone can get for $3.99, just with a different cover. So he's charging $40 for 1 piece of paper.

Go resell Nasser's books if you love them so much.

I've already sold them, last year, which I'm not able to do with Cyberfrog because it still doesn't exist. Maybe you should meet a comics retailer in real life, and then you wouldn't be so confused about how buying and selling works.

That $800,000 figure should be the typical monthly haul for mainstream titles.

Yeah it should come out monthly, not every 16 months. Good point.

I know it sounds like a large number, but it's not much in the big scheme of things. Half of it goes to production costs

Wrong. He might spend $5.00 per copy to print it, maybe $7.50 to the fulfilment center to package and mail it. Maybe $2.00 per copy to Kyle Ritter. So it might cost him $14.50 per copy including shipping, and he charged $35.00 per copy with shipping. He has no employees.

Then he got $26,000 for drawing people into the book, which costs him nothing extra. 100% profit. Then he got $50,000 for mailing his art pages, which he hasn't done and has no excuse for not doing. Then he charged an extra $50 per copy to draw a little headsketch, so he got another $27,000 which costs him nothing but time and ink. That's over $100,000 with approximately 0 in production costs.

So your reasons for arguing against me don't match reality. In other words, you might agree with me if you knew what you were talking about.

Besides, if half of the money went to production costs, he wouldn't have been able to spend half of the money on a new house.

But yeah, let's give Nasser points for punctuality. I'm sure this factor will make people want to buy more comics

You think being a year late makes anyone want to buy again? And for some reason you don't think being on time encourages people to trust your word? OK

What were you expecting to do, make millions off eBay?

I was expecting Ethan to keep his word. When he said the book would be available for 2 months, I didn't expect him to still be selling it 15 months later. I expected to be selling it myself, and getting my money back. But he's selling it instead of me, while he owes me a lot that he's in no hurry to make good on. It's "at the printers", but he's still taking an unlimited number of orders.

 

[Ivan Shatov]

And the vast majority never come out with another project again. People who want to do this consistently, should be relatively on time.

It's not important to me, but it was important to establishing the medium. If you weren't putting so much effort into being mad on the internet you might be able to read better.

Yeah, you're just making shit up.

Sorry the deadline issue annoys you so much. People are investing in Ethan's books because of Ethan, not his ability to meet deadlines. He's kind of like GMM, he builds demand and releases stuff when it's ready. You know.

If you're honestly so disappointed, I'll buy the books off you. Send me a DM after yours arrives. But don't give me this crap about how you care about "the importance of establishing the medium," you wouldn't be concern trolling its top creator if that were true.

Maybe you and your pals from the Discord channel could just move your concern trolling over to the Comicsgate Hangers On and Drama Queens topic instead of forcing a mod to do it.

 

[NSA]

Then he got $50,000 for mailing his art pages, which he hasn't done and has no excuse for not doing.

@FROG This is a pretty heavy accusation I wasn't aware of, care to comment?

I've been checking out Comicsgate stuff lately. Do any of these guys have a solution to the "Status Quo is God" problem that corporate comics have? What is the point of having epic storylines if they don't actually change anything?

I don't know if that's actually a problem, looking at the numbers, but there are plenty of stories out of continuity, like Dark Knight Returns or All Star Superman that sold really well.

 

[FROG]

@FROG This is a pretty heavy accusation I wasn't aware of, care to comment?

That's an accusation? I haven't sent the original art out because I haven't sent the books out. It's weird to have the art out there to a project that isn't in print yet.

 

[Captain Ramius]

So what's the constant delay? Is it that hard to set a deadline for yourself and tell backers, "By this time, it'll be shipped to you" and is it possible to do that BEFORE launching a new campaign?

 

[Adolf Von Merkel]

Comicsgate is gay.

 

[NSA]

That's an accusation? I haven't sent the original art out because I haven't sent the books out. It's weird to have the art out there to a project that isn't in print yet.

Earlier in the the thread:

3 weeks ago someone superchatted him about the $1,000 pages. He said he'd go ahead and mail them. He didn't.

This person claims you said you would mail these items out but didn't do so, that's an accusation of lying. Miscommunication perhaps? If someone spent $1000 their mind should be at ease.

 

[UndeliveredCrowdfundMaste]

That's an accusation? I haven't sent the original art out because I haven't sent the books out. It's weird to have the art out there to a project that isn't in print yet.

3 weeks ago you said you'd go ahead and ship it out. You "were planning to wait until the books shipped", but you were also planning to do that last November. You already sent the cover art to a private buyer, why isn't that "weird"? Why is it only weird for Indiegogo backers to get what they paid for, but not that guy who paid you privately? Are you actually going to send the pages packaged in a box with the books, or will they be shipping separately anyway? If you weren't going to do it, why did you say you would, 3 weeks ago?

 

[annnanovichova]

Well I wouldn't call Ethan a drama whore or hanger-on, although so far he's just a Comicsgate Youtuber and not a publisher.

I will absolutely call him that. He is drama whore and hanger -on. Nothing "just a" about him. Comparing him to Zack- two prominent figures of comicsgate, it's clear as day who is a normie with often dated tastes in comics and forever terrible taste in pants and who is a magnet for drama and whoring for it. With how this thread is going since he showed up here it should've been marked way beyond "infected".

Cute. Doesn't change the fact you're a drama whore.

 

[FROG]

Yeah, you're just making shit up.

Sorry the deadline issue annoys you so much. People are investing in Ethan's books because of Ethan, not his ability to meet deadlines. He's kind of like GMM, he builds demand and releases stuff when it's ready. You know.

If you're honestly so disappointed, I'll buy the books off you. Send me a DM after yours arrives. But don't give me this crap about how you care about "the importance of establishing the medium," you wouldn't be concern trolling its top creator if that were true.

Maybe you and your pals from the Discord channel could just move your concern trolling over to the Comicsgate Hangers On and Drama Queens topic instead of forcing a mod to do it.

Well, it literally took me 11 months to draw this book. It's about 4 issues worth of material, if the ashcan story is included. (And it is.)

BATMAN/CATWOMAN TRAIL OF THE GUN was also about 4 issues worth of material, and it took me an entire year to draw. It's stayed in print, and people are glad it exists when they find it. I slaved over both projects.

Printing it has been complicated, with the chromium cover being a little bit more tricky than I'd anticipated, but it's on it's way.

But it's on it's way. I'd invite my detractors to get all of their bees out of their bonnets while they still can. The book is finished, and it's coming, and lots of people will love it.

 

[UndeliveredCrowdfundMaste]

Direct quote from Ethan, July 28th:
"Holy shit, ha ha! You're right, I can go ahead and ship the artwork pages. It's not a big deal. I was gonna do it when the book shipped, but no problem."

In his own livestream, 1:15:32

COMICSGATE DEATH....LIVE!

youtu.be

 

[Ivan Shatov]

Is that why he charged more for a Cullen Bunn reprint than for Cyberfrog, with 3 more variant covers of a book that already had 10 variant covers? And now he's doing a variant for Priest Vampirella that already has over 80 covers? He's selling something that anyone can get for $3.99, just with a different cover. So he's charging $40 for 1 piece of paper.

I was always amazed by what Andy Warhol was able to do with soup cans. Being creative and enjoying commercial success is what most people call talent. Watching it in action is what most people call enjoyment. Glad you can appreciate it too.

I've already sold them, last year, which I'm not able to do with Cyberfrog because it still doesn't exist. Maybe you should meet a comics retailer in real life, and then you wouldn't be so confused about how buying and selling works.

Tell me what you did with the $3 profit you made off the batch. I really want to know this story.

Yeah it should come out monthly, not every 16 months. Good point.

I have no clue what you mean there. I just got finished saying most mainstream titles suck, which I guess you agree with.

Wrong. He might spend $5.00 per copy to print it, maybe $7.50 to the fulfilment center to package and mail it. Maybe $2.00 per copy to Kyle Ritter. So it might cost him $14.50 per copy including shipping, and he charged $35.00 per copy with shipping. He has no employees.

Okay, great, so 43% production costs instead of 50%. You really got me, that stings.

Then he got $26,000 for drawing people into the book, which costs him nothing extra. 100% profit. Then he got $50,000 for mailing his art pages, which he hasn't done and has no excuse for not doing. Then he charged an extra $50 per copy to draw a little headsketch, so he got another $27,000 which costs him nothing but time and ink. That's over $100,000 with approximately 0 in production costs.

Yeah, but have you factored in the opportunity cost dealing with trolls like you, Renfamous, SJW Spiderman, etc? That's got to be worth a few bucks.

Sounds like you have a problem with someone making a profit off their work. Not everyone wants to panhandle for a living.

So your reasons for arguing against me don't match reality. In other words, you might agree with me if you knew what you were talking about.

No, this is the most embarrassing response I could imagine, you communist. Thanks for the entertainment.

Again, why aren't you posting this in the Comicsgate Hangers-On and Drama Whores thread? At least be honest.

Besides, if half of the money went to production costs, he wouldn't have been able to spend half of the money on a new house.

You make it sound like real estate is purchased cash on delivery. You might want to find an adult and ask them to explain how that process actually works. This isn't the best place for me to explain.

You think being a year late makes anyone want to buy again? And for some reason you don't think being on time encourages people to trust your word? OK

No, in comics, 'being on time' means the product is a commodity and therefore each unit is worth relatively little.

There are some things in this world - like soup cans - where it's just a matter of producing enough cans to ship to your buyers. You follow a recipe, put the cans on pallets, then ship them to distributors. It's a very predictable business model and designed to deliver the same level of quality again and again at the lowest cost possible.

There are other things in this world - like paintings of soup cans - where it's a matter of the creator expressing the can in an interesting form. You find your inspiration, you have setbacks and leaps forward, and you try things. It's called being creative, doing it right is very hard and there's lots of setbacks and leaps forward along the way.

EVS is somewhere in the middle, trying to be creative while establishing a repeatable business model. No one bought a book for him because he promised it would be done on X date. They bought books from him because he's EVS and he has a certain level of talent. They bought these books through a channel that's different from the direct market comic books are typically sold through. The majority will do so again even if it takes EVS 5 years to deliver on the first one.

Maybe there is a small segment of backers who honestly care about the delivery date, they have not been watching the live streams where he's been showing off the proofs from the printers, they are reading posts like yours and getting triggered. But I don't see evidence that's actually happening.

All I see is a creator who's at the finish line getting a lot of static from people who suddenly decided to sperg out. At a time all of Comicsgate should be celebrating the release of a premiere title, there's this bunch of wierdos trying to sabotage the release of the book. Everything you say tells me you didn't buy a book, you don't care about Comicsgate, and you are sitting around in a Dischord with a bunch of other dummies because you are not talented and he is. Maybe you think it makes you better than him, maybe it's because life's not fair, maybe you get a thrill out of being part of a pack, maybe TenNapel or Jack of Spades or Renfamous or some PR firm put you up to it.

Dunno. But it's pathetic. Fuck off.

Direct quote from Ethan, July 28th:
"Holy shit, ha ha! You're right, I can go ahead and ship the artwork pages. It's not a big deal. I was gonna do it when the book shipped, but no problem."

In his own livestream, 1:15:32

COMICSGATE DEATH....LIVE!

youtu.be

Is your life really that empty, or is someone paying you to keep notes?

God I hope it's the later, I would hate to think people invest time and energy into this over a $25 comic book.

 

[UndeliveredCrowdfundMaste]

Tell me what you did with the $3 profit you made off the batch. I really want to know this story.

I bought more comic books with it, genius.

I buy comics, and then after I sell them I can buy more comics with that money. Ethan hasn't done what he said he would do, so I can't buy more comics yet with the money I invested in Cyberfrog.

I could've bought another $2,000 worth of Jawbreakers 2, like I did with the first one, but Ethan is still holding that money. The Jawbreakers campaign won't still be going 15 months from now, like Cyberfrog is, because the Jawbreakers campaign isn't completely fucked. So Ethan made me regret giving him money. I've missed other opportunities from people who keep their word.

And you don't see any problems with that at all, because you're whatever you are. Not an honest or worthwhile person to talk to.

I would hate to think people invest time and energy into this over a $25 comic book.

And now you're officially a liar and a pathetic troll. You respond to my comment about $50,000 worth of art pages at $1,000 each, and you say it's about a $25 comic book. Just stupid. Besides, the comic book was $35 with shipping.

 

[FROG]

Direct quote from Ethan, July 28th:
"Holy shit, ha ha! You're right, I can go ahead and ship the artwork pages. It's not a big deal. I was gonna do it when the book shipped, but no problem."

In his own livestream, 1:15:32

COMICSGATE DEATH....LIVE!

youtu.be

Yeah, this got followed up with questions about how the art would be allocated, and the idea that the art would be offered on a first come, first choice basis.
People do need to be able to see the book to make a choice purchase on an investment of $1000, which is how original art is usually sold to buyers in the first place. The other option is to simply hand out the book in order, backer #1 gets page #1, but frankly, this doesn't seem fair either, since that doesn't reward early backers.

If you ARE an original art backer, you're literally the only person who is making this complaint.

If you'd like, you can reach out to me with your order #, and we'll work something out. Maybe a refund! I appreciate your support!