#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Spiderfall]

How detailed does the penciling have to be? I want to write a comic but I can't draw; I'm also a control freak. If I roughly and lightly sketch out how I want each frame to look, would an artist go over them and make it look good? Or would most pass on a project where they have so little creative input?

It depends on the team, really. Frank Miller did something close to what you're talking about in his Daredevil run, though that just happened naturally as he focused more and more on the writing aspect, leaving Janson to do more and more of the heavy lifting. With some artists like Jack Kirby, Joe Kubert or Jean Giraud, the pencils are solid as all hell. Some mad men like Eric Larsen just draw straight-to-ink. So yes, you could just make a really rough sketch and let the artist's magic shine a light on it and make it better. This all depends on how to interpret the "would most pass on a project where they have so little creative input?" line of yours.

The problem comes in when the artist thinks there are better ways to draw the panel, if not the entire page. You might not like that and you have to battle the artist's judgments and instincts. And let's face it, you need to work as a team. One of you has to give. Compromise is inevitable unless one of you says screw it and cans the project. The artist has his own agency too, basically. Some artists can put up with it but you might not get the best work when all is said and done when you get your way and yours only.

 

[damian]

Decided to check up on Cyber @FROG ‘s IGG comments:





@FROG an eta on shippings would be appreciated, tho you’re still doing better than a certain few (*cough*Pace*cough*), I’m also starting to get annoyed by the wait time.

 

[Puddleduck]

Nothing we tell you will be correct, only particular artist can answer that question so talk to them. The thing is- if you can't draw in general the layouts you provide will always be subpar to what actual artist can do and quality will suffer due to you being anal. But as a starting point for artist, stick figures layouts are ok. But if you're really that controlling, stop thinking about collaborating, because it's really shitty to work with writers like that (unless they pay for the pain in the ass they create) and get to those how to draw books.

The problem comes in when the artist thinks there are better ways to draw the panel, if not the entire page. You might not like that and you have to battle the artist's judgments and instincts. And let's face it, you need to work as a team. One of you has to give. Compromise is inevitable unless one of you says screw it and cans the project. The artist has his own agency too, basically. Some artists can put up with it but you might not get the best work when all is said and done when you get your way and yours only.

Yeah actually - I'm not an artist, so my "visual instincts" probably suck compared to someone who actually is. And like you say it's a collab/compromise process, so it'd be something I'd have to get over if I want it to look as good as possible!
Also, I wouldn't want to work on a writing project where the entire story had been decided and I just had to "fill it in", so why should anyone do the opposite?

 

[Dom Cruise]

Comic books are something I've never managed to fully delve into, I've only dipped my toe.

So I'm mostly an outsider looking in on this situation, but I've been keeping an eye on this situation ever since the controversy over Spider Woman's ass in 2014 and a follower of Richard C Meyer since not long after he first started in 2017, I remember how refreshing it was to finally hear someone acknowledging the bizarre direction comics was going in.

For any comic fans, I'm sorry that this has happened, hopefully things can be salvaged someday.

 

[Comicsgeist]

Decided to check up on Cyber @FROG ‘s IGG comments:

@FROG an eta on shippings would be appreciated, tho you’re still doing better than a certain few (*cough*Pace*cough*), I’m also starting to get annoyed by the wait time.

Spergs are gonna sperg.

Mitch Breitweiser however is beginning to face the rumblings of revolt on IGG over the delays with Red Rooster from the normies:

Spoiler: PFO.... politely.

Still no firm commitment to a delivery date.... Can you say, 'carpetbagger'?

If you weren't familiar with Mitch's air of Southern gentility you could easily miss the note passive aggression in his responses, which amount to, 'yeah, we're busy with other projects (like my super-secret company I've set up with Tim Lim?) so delivering RR has moved way down my list of priorities, deal with it or fuck off.'
It takes two minutes to post an update, people are generally understanding about delays, but ignoring backers will frustrate even the most forgiving into revolt because it indicates a disinterest and disrespect for your customers. Not very comicsgate Mitch, if you ever were.
EVS has set up his own company too, with a bunch of side deals in the works, runs his YouTube channel which amounts to a second job and he's delivering 28 pages more than Mitch has promised, so Mitch's excuses are a bit thin.

I'm still looking forward to the book though. Out if all the comicsgate projects, RR looks actually looks the most interesting to me. Just get the book out Mitch!

 

[KingofNothing]

Decided to check up on Cyber @FROG ‘s IGG comments:
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@FROG an eta on shippings would be appreciated, tho you’re still doing better than a certain few (*cough*Pace*cough*), I’m also starting to get annoyed by the wait time.

They're being kinda spergy when EVS posted the first chapter for free for them to check out and stated the book is done like 2 weeks ago. But I do remember EVS mentioning July for shipping on a few of the latest streams. @FROG can you confirm?

Spergs are gonna sperg.

Mitch Breitweiser however is beginning to face the rumblings of revolt on IGG over the delays with Red Rooster from the normies:

Spoiler: PFO.... politely.

View attachment 807122
View attachment 807124

Still no firm commitment to a delivery date.... Can you say, 'carpetbagger'?

If you weren't familiar with Mitch's air of Southern gentility you could easily miss the note passive aggression in his responses, which amount to, 'yeah, we're busy with other projects (like my super-secret company I've set up with Tim Lim?) so delivering RR has moved way down my list of priorities, deal with it or fuck off.'
It takes two minutes to post an update, people are generally understanding about delays, but ignoring backers will frustrate even the most forgiving into revolt because it indicates a disinterest and disrespect for your customers. Not very comicsgate Mitch, if you ever were.
EVS has set up his own company too, with a bunch of side deals in the works, runs his YouTube channel which amounts to a second job and he's delivering 28 pages more than Mitch has promised, so Mitch's excuses are a bit thin.

I'm still looking forward to the book though. Out if all the comicsgate projects, RR looks actually looks the most interesting to me. Just get the book out Mitch!

I like the Breitweisers, they seem like nice people, but they really need to update more often with some pages or something. They're responding to the indigogo comments, just post a damn page now and then.

 

[annnanovichova]

why should anyone do the opposite

They are either getting paid very well or are at the beginning of their career and are ok with work for hire, as it usually comes with way more caveats than regular collaboration and co-owning.

In theory they’re supposed to function like a publishing editor where they follow the comic writing/drawing progress step-by-step to give feedback, make corrections, ask questions that they think the average reader will have, and slap the pen out of someone’s hand if the writer wants to put in something especially stupid. In practice they can range from being either backseat writers who supplant the creative teams’ pitches with their own terrible ideas, or some nepotism hire more interested in kissing ass over doing their jobs.

Editor in comics should be more like a book editor- invisible hand that steers from wrong- from formatting text to corrections to be the beta reader and critic in one person. But more and more with the new wave it's the opposite- few propositions from writers I got were in situations I couldn't figure who the actual writer is - the writer or the editor, including the editor being on the cover as creative. Including, but not limited to discussions about plot that would go like this- me asking Qs/suggesting something to writer only and getting replies from editor as "we discussed". It has to end because it's really isn't the way. But I think that is another way for people to try getting into writing comics through hole in the backdoor, just like journalists.

Makes me wonder tho- why everyone is trying to get into WRITING comics? Doing art too hard?
(that wasn't a question, but a comment on utter lazyness of SJW and dangerhairs.)

 

[Starscreams Cape]

Spergs are gonna sperg.

Mitch Breitweiser however is beginning to face the rumblings of revolt on IGG over the delays with Red Rooster from the normies:

Spoiler: PFO.... politely.

View attachment 807122
View attachment 807124

Still no firm commitment to a delivery date.... Can you say, 'carpetbagger'?

If you weren't familiar with Mitch's air of Southern gentility you could easily miss the note passive aggression in his responses, which amount to, 'yeah, we're busy with other projects (like my super-secret company I've set up with Tim Lim?) so delivering RR has moved way down my list of priorities, deal with it or fuck off.'
It takes two minutes to post an update, people are generally understanding about delays, but ignoring backers will frustrate even the most forgiving into revolt because it indicates a disinterest and disrespect for your customers. Not very comicsgate Mitch, if you ever were.
EVS has set up his own company too, with a bunch of side deals in the works, runs his YouTube channel which amounts to a second job and he's delivering 28 pages more than Mitch has promised, so Mitch's excuses are a bit thin.

I'm still looking forward to the book though. Out if all the comicsgate projects, RR looks actually looks the most interesting to me. Just get the book out Mitch!

I don't think Mitch and Elizabeth ever really declared themselves "comicsgate". If they did they haven't mentioned it in a long time.

Are they really working with Tim Lim? I actually quite liked Trump Space Force but Tim himself seems like a bit of a thin skinned baby.

 

[Comicsgeist]

I like the Breitweisers, they seem like nice people, but they really need to update more often with some pages or something. They're responding to the indigogo comments, just post a damn page now and then.

They do seem like nice people, but you have to wonder if there is actual progress to post. There seems to be a lot of recycling of the same four or five pages in various stages of completion on twitter. Maybe it's just that he just doesn't want to reveal more, but when you're this late and this reluctant to issue an update people begin to wonder, so he really need to start communicating in a manner that will restore customer confidence before he really alienates them.

I don't think Mitch and Elizabeth ever really declared themselves "comicsgate". If they did they haven't mentioned it in a long time.

Are they really working with Tim Lim? I actually quite liked Trump Space Force but Tim himself seems like a bit of a thin skinned baby.

They are pretty good about retweeting comicsgate projects, but Mitch was never comfortable with the anti-SJW stuff. He prefers to remain low key and uncontroversial. Once bitten and all that. Then there's whatever business deal that he and EVS were working on that seems to have fallen through. So they might not be talking either.
Kelsey Shannon is hanging out with the Breitweiser's at the moment working on their 'project'. I've no knowledge if what it is beyond the projects they've announced like The Futurists, but Mitch and Tim are neighbours and there does seem to be a 'Southern Mafia' contingent to Comicsgate that you'd have to guess were all working together if a publishing company is being founded by Mitch.

 

[Stoneheart]

Makes me wonder tho- why everyone is trying to get into WRITING comics? Doing art too hard?

they think they have ideas and storys to tell, at the end you get boring SJW books and very basic comicsgate books.
our bois comic looks okay, the story is weak but okay for the kind of comic he wants to make.

you have to look at their background, superhero comics, not the genre where you go for good storys.

 

[KingofNothing]

I don't think Mitch and Elizabeth ever really declared themselves "comicsgate". If they did they haven't mentioned it in a long time.

Are they really working with Tim Lim? I actually quite liked Trump Space Force but Tim himself seems like a bit of a thin skinned baby.

I think that glove shit proved he's a thin skinned baby. You had a direct line to EVS, you could have just said he was a jerk on stream or whatever, Tim. You didn't need the gay ops.

 

[Jub-Jub]

when you're this late and this reluctant to issue an update people begin to wonder

Estimated shipping was March 2019, so he's barely at 3 months. Any backer to a kickstarted project should expect a +6 month extension before starting to bitch too much. That said I also think you should also keep backers updated as to completion % at least once a month.

Makes me wonder tho- why everyone is trying to get into WRITING comics? Doing art too hard?

Yes. Anybody can write a bad script, it takes skill to turn that into something worthwhile.

 

[Puddleduck]

Makes me wonder tho- why everyone is trying to get into WRITING comics? Doing art too hard?
(that wasn't a question, but a comment on utter lazyness of SJW and dangerhairs.)

With me I don't specifically want to be a comic writer, but one of the ideas I have for a story works best in comic form
(I know it wasn't a question, but still)

 

[FROG]

Decided to check up on Cyber @FROG ‘s IGG comments:
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@FROG an eta on shippings would be appreciated, tho you’re still doing better than a certain few (*cough*Pace*cough*), I’m also starting to get annoyed by the wait time.

It's finished and out of my hands. So we've got a couple of steps: Wait for it to come back from the printers. Autograph them.

Fortunately, I've got help in fulfillment and everything else, so I expect shipping and handling to run smoothly.

Hecklers will continue to heckle ("YOU'RE A FUCKING FRAUD") but it's hard to really do much else to make this go faster.

 

[Puddleduck]

@FROG have you or the other 'Gaters looked into Amazon? They have print on demand services, even for comics now!

 

[FROG]

I think that glove shit proved he's a thin skinned baby. You had a direct line to EVS, you could have just said he was a jerk on stream or whatever, Tim. You didn't need the gay ops.

A year ago on a livestream, I was asked if the Trump parody books that were kind of pervasive in the indies were considered "Comicsgate", and I said, "No, because they're partisan and political, which is antithetical to the purpose of the movement."

I didn't realize these were Tim Lim's books. I just saw these parody covers, the Hulk as Trump, etc, and thought they were lowbrow political cash ins. This wasn't where I was hoping CG would be going, creating IPs like Jawbreakers, Red Rooster and Cyberfrog and building on them like we were a more rugged Image Comics, but during what amounted to a new Great Depression in the comics industry.

Anyhow, my casually declaring that THIS was ComicsGate but THIS WASN'T ComicsGate frightened a handful of creative people, who decided I was "too powerful" and needed to be brought down. This lead to the "transcripts" confrontation in which Tim Lim and a few of his cohorts confronted me with my own words about how Trump books weren't ComicsGate, and then following that, a lot of strange efforts in subterfuge to bleed off my supporters. Which lead to the creation of a group of fans called War Campaign who fought those gay ops with gay ops of their own.

I tried to mollify the situation by promoting Tim Lim's TRUMP SPACE FORCE, and helped them to reach $72,517 on their campaign, also backing them at the highest level. This seemed to cool things off for a while.

Then fans began to call me Caesar, which made the Tim Lim contingent even more insane with their original idea that I was "too powerful" and needed to be brought down. I had a few chats with Tim about this shit, but it never went anywhere except to feed his paranoia and hate.

The Black Glove op was literally the strangest shit I've ever seen. I still don't know what the point of that was...to infiltrate the "ComicsGate/War Campaign mafia" and "expose" the entire thing? For someone who does nothing but put out books lionizing President Trump, it's ironic that this crew is acting just like the mainstream media trying to dig up POTUS' connections to Putin.

Recently I offered to try to bring these guys back into my circle. The truth is, all of this is about selling comics and making fans excited about supporting these comics, and we do that better when we're all working together, doing ComicsGate Live livestream fundraisers, etc. Everyone makes more money, everyone gets more exposure, and everyone sells more comics. But I was rebuffed.

Cecil said something to me that kind of resonated, and he was speaking about one person in particular. (Not Tim)

"He needs you and he hates you for it."

This is a genuine psychological phenomenon that I've dealt with this past year, and it's depressing. I've kind of decided to just low key support the ComicsGate projects that I think look good, but limit my livestreams to ME promoting MY PROJECTS only, and then have Zack on when we want to rail about comics. I spent a lot of my time last year raising up creators for the purpose of building ComicsGate, but I'm not sure I needed to. ComicsGate sinks or swims based on the initiative of individual creators who want to make a difference and want to do the work to make it happen. I'm only one guy, and I'm definitely not "Caesar."

I still want to help people but ultimately this needs to be about good comics, not fighting each other on the internet.

@FROG have you or the other 'Gaters looked into Amazon? They have print on demand services, even for comics now!

Yeah, that might be an option for some people. I'll tell you though, Crowdfunding has this component of entertainment that Amazon doesn't have, in that you have goals, stretch goals, different tiers and perks, and people can WATCH the number change. They can watch the money. People like to do that. Amazon doesn't let customers see that they're making a difference. So I think it would result in lower sales.

 

[Puddleduck]

Yeah, that might be an option for some people. I'll tell you though, Crowdfunding has this component of entertainment that Amazon doesn't have, in that you have goals, stretch goals, different tiers and perks, and people can WATCH the number change. They can watch the money. People like to do that. Amazon doesn't let customers see that they're making a difference. So I think it would result in lower sales.

I thiiiink (like with book-books) there's a way for them to not be listed, but be printable, if that makes sense? So when someone orders a copy on IGG, the seller would be able to have a copy of the comicbook dispatched without having to bulk-print or anything.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

A year ago on a livestream, I was asked if the Trump parody books that were kind of pervasive in the indies were considered "Comicsgate", and I said, "No, because they're partisan and political, which is antithetical to the purpose of the movement."

I didn't realize these were Tim Lim's books. I just saw these parody covers, the Hulk as Trump, etc, and thought they were lowbrow political cash ins. This wasn't where I was hoping CG would be going, creating IPs like Jawbreakers, Red Rooster and Cyberfrog and building on them like we were a more rugged Image Comics, but during what amounted to a new Great Depression in the comics industry.

Anyhow, my casually declaring that THIS was ComicsGate but THIS WASN'T ComicsGate frightened a handful of creative people, who decided I was "too powerful" and needed to be brought down. This lead to the "transcripts" confrontation in which Tim Lim and a few of his cohorts confronted me with my own words about how Trump books weren't ComicsGate, and then following that, a lot of strange efforts in subterfuge to bleed off my supporters. Which lead to the creation of a group of fans called War Campaign who fought those gay ops with gay ops of their own.

I tried to mollify the situation by promoting Tim Lim's TRUMP SPACE FORCE, and helped them to reach $72,517 on their campaign, also backing them at the highest level. This seemed to cool things off for a while.

Then fans began to call me Caesar, which made the Tim Lim contingent even more insane with their original idea that I was "too powerful" and needed to be brought down. I had a few chats with Tim about this shit, but it never went anywhere except to feed his paranoia and hate.

The Black Glove op was literally the strangest shit I've ever seen. I still don't know what the point of that was...to infiltrate the "ComicsGate/War Campaign mafia" and "expose" the entire thing? For someone who does nothing but put out books lionizing President Trump, it's ironic that this crew is acting just like the mainstream media trying to dig up POTUS' connections to Putin.

Recently I offered to try to bring these guys back into my circle. The truth is, all of this is about selling comics and making fans excited about supporting these comics, and we do that better when we're all working together, doing ComicsGate Live livestream fundraisers, etc. Everyone makes more money, everyone gets more exposure, and everyone sells more comics. But I was rebuffed.

Cecil said something to me that kind of resonated, and he was speaking about one person in particular. (Not Tim)

"He needs you and he hates you for it."

This is a genuine psychological phenomenon that I've dealt with this past year, and it's depressing. I've kind of decided to just low key support the ComicsGate projects that I think look good, but limit my livestreams to ME promoting MY PROJECTS only, and then have Zack on when we want to rail about comics. I spent a lot of my time last year raising up creators for the purpose of building ComicsGate, but I'm not sure I needed to. ComicsGate sinks or swims based on the initiative of individual creators who want to make a difference and want to do the work to make it happen. I'm only one guy, and I'm definitely not "Caesar."

I still want to help people but ultimately this needs to be about good comics, not fighting each other on the internet.

I remember DM'ing Tim when all this was happening and asking, as a Comicsgate ham-and-egger, how nice it would be if he could just forgive, forget and move on. Like you said, not have this uncomfortable schism hanging out there. His terse reply could have been written by a love-scorned, 22 year old chick. He didn't NEED EVS & CG, and was doing very well on his own, thank you very much.

I wanted to ask him if he had ever calculated how much money he is leaving on the table in the future by being perpetually angry, but just decided to leave it there. Good artist and TSF is a solid book, but he's a drama queen like Captain Cummings. Siskel and Ebert never liked each other much in the early days. Jamie and Adam from Mythbusters really don't like each other. But they all decided it was better to go along and just make money by playing nice.

 

[Comicsgeist]

Estimated shipping was March 2019, so he's barely at 3 months. Any backer to a kickstarted project should expect a +6 month extension before starting to bitch too much. That said I also think you should also keep backers updated as to completion % at least once a month

Good point. I guess people only remember that the projects were all launched around the same time and a year later people see other books delivering and begin to wonder what's taking so long, which is why providing updates happens to be so important.
Now that creators have tested the waters and built up a backer list for future projects that they can immediately engage with when launching their next book, it would probably be wise on their part to have a good chunk of that next book done before launching it to reduce the wait time for delivery.

 

[Puddleduck]

Estimated shipping was March 2019, so he's barely at 3 months. Any backer to a kickstarted project should expect a +6 month extension before starting to bitch too much. That said I also think you should also keep backers updated as to completion % at least once a month.

Is this well known? Zack said similar, something like you shouldn't get too annoyed until it's been nearly a year.

Up to this point I hadn't backed anything on IGG so didn't know what "the norm" was. If I hadn't heard these things so was borderline expecting it, I'd be a bit annoyed about waiting.