Anti-Vax Movement

[cactus]

Because I already knew you were a moderator when I posted it. It was not meant combative but as a simple reminder, we are all human, we all make mistakes.

And to be honest I think this post you made is an example of such a mistake.

I may be completely wrong in every single post on the subject of vaccines. Certainly the ratings make it look like some people think so. But I am writing honestly and frankly and I stand behind what I type.

I think when it gets to the point where you feel the need to start telling other people not talk to me for being "an exceptional motherfucker", for one "late" rating, that maybe you're taking things a little too personal. I mean we can all get riled up sometimes in these discussions, I get it.

Shut up, no one cares.

 

[UY 690]

Both sides of the Vax community are idiots. The pro-vaxxers for asking folks to shove shots down our asses and the anti-vaxxers for thinking NOT vaxxing your kids or wife will save humanity from death. The good thing about anti-vaxxers is that third world folks are using their diseases to whip out the stupid. Either way? NO ONE WINS! Oof.....

 

[Sawmill]

If you do not believe in a vast conspiracy to cover up something that would otherwise be trivially exposed, what is your alternative hypothesis as to why the dangers of vaccines haven't been exposed?

I don't think vaccines are universally dangerous and I think there are vital vaccines.

I am worried about the lack of transparency. I have started with a simple argument for transparancy, something that is usually supported for most scientific and medical endeavors and I have received a deluge of reactions for it. I think that's a microcosm example of how sharpened the swords are on this topic.

In another thread on deep thought right now people easily accept the idea that:

the pharmaceutical industry has a strong incentive to promote overmedication (money!).

But somehow this motive could not apply to vaccines. It is not possible that there is a single adverse effect or a single superfluous vaccine.

Somehow unlike any other endeavor in the world, even well studied and carefully managed subjects (like say nuclear power), every vaccination choice made is perfect and should not be discussed.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I don't think vaccines are universally dangerous and I think there are vital vaccines.

I am worried about the lack of transparency. I have started with a simple argument for transparancy, something that is usually supported for most scientific and medical endeavors and I have received a deluge of reactions for it. I think that's a microcosm example of how sharpened the swords are on this topic.

In another thread on deep thought right now people easily accept the idea that:



But somehow this motive could not apply to vaccines. It is not possible that there is a single adverse effect or a single superfluous vaccine.

Somehow unlike any other endeavor in the world, even well studied and carefully managed subjects (like say nuclear power), every vaccination choice made is perfect and should not be discussed.

This is your first post:

Well you know it’s brainwashing when they cannot even allow any type of middle ground take on the situation. Like they’re fiercely defending faceless corporations that we’re freed from all liability in the 80s so they can’t be sued if they fuck up and are not subject to the same stringent requirements of testing and reporting that other types of drugs are subject too. If it’s all totally legit why not argue for more transparency and test findings and review if for no other reason than to shut anti vaccine arguments down? It’s not defending vaccines on principle that’s weird it’s operating on the assumption that the current system is perfect and needs no improvement and is beyond reproach. That’s always been my problem with the vaccine advocate crowd it actually makes them look far worse than who they are attacking.

This isn't a "simple argument for transparency". This is calling anyone who disagrees with you brainwashed, in your own words. You are going to get a hostile response. It makes you reprimanding a moderator for hurting your feelings both hilarious and hypocritical. Now, addressing your argument:

1. You can go and look up every single ingredient that is in every vaccine, what they're there for, and what they do, right this very second. You can also look up independently-funded test findings about vaccines currently on the market, FDA inquiries, CDC inquiries, and university reviews. How much more transparent can the system get? Do you want to be given a personal tour of the production sites by the head of Pfizer?
2. Pharmaceutical businesses are set up to make money. "Pill-pushing" plays into pharmaceutical companies' financial interests for an obvious reason: more opiods sold on the white and grey markets = more money for them. Selling a deliberately faulty product (vaccines) is not in their best interests because the instant this is found out (which would be very quickly without a massive conspiracy that you yourself say doesn't exist), the federal government- not Joe Schmoe who you claim they are protected from (I would love to see any kind of source on that, by the way), but the FDA- would hit them with a massive lawsuit involving jail time for defrauding the government so hard that their heads would fly into orbit. "Do not directly poison the American people" is one of the only things our byzantine bureaucracy can agree on. In addition, the other pharma giants would get the business instead. Therefore, it is in the direct interest of pharmaceutical giants that they provide the highest quality product they can.
Your paranoid itches would require that pharmaceutical companies act against their own direct short-term and long-term financial interests to be true. This is why that motive could not apply to vaccines; overmedication is in the direct financial interests of a pharma corp, and bad vaccines aren't.
As for "useless vaccines": please, name which vaccines you think are "useless". Surely you know better that medical professionals (who are the ones who determine vaccine regimens, by the way: not pharma giants, but the CDC, an independent organization run with the direct goal of defending the public health).

EDIT: If your response to this post does not show any signs that you have applied a non-trivial amount of cognitive energy to understanding my points, this is my last high-effort response to you. I will not continue to lead a stubborn ass to water.

 

[Graffiti canvas]

Holy shit, this FB group is REEEALLY trying to sell it.

https://www.facebook.com/EBOLAVaccineResistanceMovement/

 

[Emperor Julian]

Both sides of the Vax community are idiots. The pro-vaxxers for asking folks to shove shots down our asses and the anti-vaxxers for thinking NOT vaxxing your kids or wife will save humanity from death. The good thing about anti-vaxxers is that third world folks are using their diseases to whip out the stupid. Either way? NO ONE WINS! Oof.....

Anti vaccers are not only a danger to themselves but others due to issues of herd immunity. For example say your unvaccinated ass is around someone who can't have it you're stupid bullshit may have sentanced someone to death.
https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-immunity-how-does-it-work

So the pro-vaxxer is totally right and anti-vaxxers are totally wrong.

 

[Tanti-Fanti]

Both sides of the Vax community are idiots. The pro-vaxxers for asking folks to shove shots down our asses and the anti-vaxxers for thinking NOT vaxxing your kids or wife will save humanity from death. The good thing about anti-vaxxers is that third world folks are using their diseases to whip out the stupid. Either way? NO ONE WINS! Oof.....

I need sources for the first point because I've never ONCE seen a pro -vaxxer ( you know the majority of the population) advocate for 10 shots going into a baby at once. It's one thing to be concerned about how people who are immune-compromised get their shots and what we put into vaccines. It's another to completely forgo them because you think you know better than a professional.

One side does win in this. The side that vaccinates. Because people won't die. Because it prevents the disease from evolving to a point in which it can kill us and it makes those who are immune-compromised able to live in society a bit more safely (for the most part).

What good is not vaccinating doing to the general population? How's measles and mumps and things like that going to benefit modern society? If anyone can give me an answer I'll gladly listen. Because right now measles outbreaks are killing children who don't have the ability to fight against it. And right now you have these people bringing their un-vaccinated children by their own admission to these vulnerable people.

This isn't the same as the stupidity found in other debates, it literally is a matter of life or death.

 

[AP 297]

Holy shit, this FB group is REEEALLY trying to sell it.

https://www.facebook.com/EBOLAVaccineResistanceMovement/

People like this amaze me. Stephanie Messenger was a person whose blog was found before. She blamed her child's death on vaccines even though the kid was diagnosed with Alexanders Disease.

Most of them seem to blame vaccines for things that can often be attributed to bad genes, environment, or other factors. To them, vaccines are the perfect villain. Never mind the fact that for most drug companies, vaccines aren't extremely profitable and are at times only produced as a good to enhance public health at the request of governments.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/124/Supplement_5/S492.abstract

https://magazine.jhsph.edu/2002/fall/vaccines.html

This Atlantic below article sums it up. Yes, they do make some money, but it isn't a lot and often there have been shortages when the vaccines weren't that profitable. Essentially we socialize vaccines to keep their supply stable and prevent catastrophic outbreaks from destabilizing everything.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/02/vaccines-are-profitable-so-what/385214/

But that argument is historically unfounded. Not only do pediatricians and doctors often lose money on vaccine administration, it wasn't too long ago that the vaccine industry was struggling with slim profit margins and shortages. The Economist wrote that "for decades vaccines were a neglected corner of the drugs business, with old technology, little investment and abysmal profit margins. Many firms sold their vaccine divisions to concentrate on more profitable drugs."

In fact, vaccines were so unprofitable that some companies stopped making them altogether. In 1967, there were 26 vaccine manufactures. That number dropped to 17 by 1980. Ten years ago, the financial incentives to produce vaccines were so weak that there was growing concern that pharmaceutical companies were abandoning the vaccine business for selling more-profitable daily drug treatments. Compared with drugs that require daily doses, vaccines are only administered once a year or a lifetime. The pharmaceutical company Wyeth (which has since been acquired by Pfizer) reported that they stopped making the flu vaccine because the margins were so low.

“Historically vaccines were produced at a relatively low price and sold with a low profit margin. They were add-ons to other products—mostly drugs—that pharmaceutical manufacturers were producing," explains Neal Halsey, professor of pediatric infectious diseases and international health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. "The people working in vaccines described themselves as the stepchild of others, and they had to fight hard for the resources to develop new vaccines.”

Big Pharma isn't pushing this. It is the government trying to avoid an outbreak. We've had more of them lately because of the anti-vaxers. Completely preventable diseases that do significant harm. Honestly, I get every vaccination I can get within reason, even Tetanus. When my time comes up, I want the shots. I figure let the anti-vaxers remove themselves from the gene pool this way.

 

[Meowthkip]

Because I already knew you were a moderator when I posted it. Posting the rules was not meant combative but as a simple reminder, we are all human, we all make mistakes.

And to be honest I think this post you made is an example of such a mistake.

I may be completely wrong in every single post on the subject of vaccines. Certainly the ratings make it look like some people think so. But I am writing honestly and frankly and I stand behind what I type.

I think when it gets to the point where you feel the need to start telling other people not talk to me for being "an exceptional motherfucker", for one "late" rating, that maybe you're taking things a little too personal. I mean we can all get riled up sometimes in these discussions, I get it.

Are you a fucking tanuki, m8, because you got some fucking balls. And a complete lack of any self-awareness. LMAO

How am I "late" for "making a mistake," as you put it? You're inferring that I'm slow, or that I missed something. I missed nothing. Usually rating sperging is fucking stupid as hell but I can't help but feel like you wanted to leave some kind of negative rating but still hold some kind of moral high ground where there is none, because you're apparently okay with babies dying from measles because BIG PHARMA. Your posts are dripping with pretension and a stunning display of over-confidence that I am genuinely confused and amused.

 

[UY 690]

Guys! Why are we replying to Sawmill? He's wanting us to hate him so he can use it against us for even more debates to last 7 weeks. We know vaxxing will save human lives. But anti-vaxxers will disappear in the next couple years if we don't pay them any attendance. We have to ignore him at all times before it's too late. Even if we give him links? He will still call them fake news. :/

 

[Meowthkip]

Guys! Why are we replying to Sawmill? He's wanting us to hate him so he can use it against us for even more debates to last 7 weeks. We know vaxxing will save human lives. But anti-vaxxers will disappear in the next couple years if we don't pay them any attendance. We have to ignore him at all times before it's too late. Even if we give him links? He will still call them fake news. :/

Shhh, you'll scare him off.

 

[A Witty Name]

Ignoring the fact that we probably have a new halal on our hands, anti-vaxers based out of Minnesota are holding measles infection parties to get their child infected on purpose.

 

[Ginger Piglet]

Ignoring the fact that we probably have a new halal on our hands, anti-vaxers based out of Minnesota are holding measles infection parties to get their child infected on purpose.

I've heard about this. I think I posted something from that Ashara Wood character on here a while back about this sort of thing. She's this superannuated hippie who seems to be at least a second generation anti-vaxxer and was taken to a pox party because her parents didn't trust the chem-a-killz. This was back in the 50s, no less.



Why can't anti-vaxxers just be rounded up and sent to leper colonies.

(Is that A-logging?)

 

[CSECAdmin]

So I'm sure this has been said hundreds of times by people here(But I didn't have time to read every response here), but neither side is entirely in the right.

I'm not Anti-Vax, but I don't believe all of them are good, or necessary. Some don't have enough science behind them.
Also, lets think about how well the Influenza Shot is doing. Oh wait, they have to change it every year, because it doesn't work right. Yet they push it every year as a preventative.
They aren't taking the time to get stuff tested, and get it right.

However, you need some vaccinations, because they are tried and true, and prevent some very bad diseases. There is proof that disease cases have gone down, due to Vaccinations.

 

[Piga Dgrifm]

Ignoring the fact that we probably have a new halal on our hands, anti-vaxers based out of Minnesota are holding measles infection parties to get their child infected on purpose.

If only there was another way to make sure they don't ever get Measles at an advanced age, but alas!

 

[Ginger Piglet]

Also, lets think about how well the Influenza Shot is doing. Oh wait, they have to change it every year, because it doesn't work right. Yet they push it every year as a preventative.
They aren't taking the time to get stuff tested, and get it right.

Wrong. Influenza is extremely difficult to vaccinate against because it mutates an awful lot and a vaccine against one strain won't of necessity be effective against another. It is also not just one virus but a whole array of them. It is thus not possible to "get it right" with a vaccine against influenza.

 

[Tanti-Fanti]

So I'm sure this has been said hundreds of times by people here(But I didn't have time to read every response here), but neither side is entirely in the right.

I'm not Anti-Vax, but I don't believe all of them are good, or necessary. Some don't have enough science behind them.
Also, lets think about how well the Influenza Shot is doing. Oh wait, they have to change it every year, because it doesn't work right. Yet they push it every year as a preventative.
They aren't taking the time to get stuff tested, and get it right.

However, you need some vaccinations, because they are tried and true, and prevent some very bad diseases. There is proof that disease cases have gone down, due to Vaccinations.

No. The Influenza shot is not "wrong". They change it every year because things like the common cold and the flu EVOLVE. Just like many diseases do. They have to keep changing it because it evolves at a rate that's not controllable. Those outbreaks you see on TV? Just another strain of the same disease. But certain diseases like polio, are able to be contained with one shot. They are manageable. We generally are iffy on flu shots because you can get another version of the flu that you just have to deal with anyways so in that case it's up to you whether you go for it or not. They have to test these things in order to even release it to the public.

Anti-vaxxers are in the wrong because they are actively bringing vulnerable people to get infected, aren't getting shots for contagious diseases like measles which kill you really fast if you're immuno-compromised, and generally have 0 evidence to prove it is beneficial to society.

I don't know why we suddenly have people in this thread trying to justify anti-vaxxers. Their antics of trying to help others by risking people is just hilariously sad.

 

[Graffiti canvas]

Also, lets think about how well the Influenza Shot is doing. Oh wait, they have to change it every year, because it doesn't work right. Yet they push it every year as a preventative.
They aren't taking the time to get stuff tested, and get it right.

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read in this thread and you belong in a facebook group.

Flu strains mutate incredibly fast and change genetic material significantly enough every couple of years to render previous vaccines ineffective.

Science has to keep up with those changes through constant sampling and analysis of the current strain, develop and produce an altered vaccine based on predictive indicators as to what it's going to be by time the flu shots can be manufactured en-masse and distributed months from now.

The fact that we have functioning vaccines at all for the flu is pretty fucking amazing.

 

[cactus]

I'm not Anti-Vax, but I don't believe all of them are good, or necessary. Some don't have enough science behind them.

Not gonna bother with the flu stuff because other people covered better than I could, but have you not heard of the FDA motherfucker?

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

So I'm sure this has been said hundreds of times by people here(But I didn't have time to read every response here), but neither side is entirely in the right.

I'm not Anti-Vax, but I don't believe all of them are good, or necessary. Some don't have enough science behind them.
Also, lets think about how well the Influenza Shot is doing. Oh wait, they have to change it every year, because it doesn't work right. Yet they push it every year as a preventative.
They aren't taking the time to get stuff tested, and get it right.

However, you need some vaccinations, because they are tried and true, and prevent some very bad diseases. There is proof that disease cases have gone down, due to Vaccinations.

The fact that this is your first meaningful content on this site immediately makes me think you're a Sawmill sock or some shit. Exact same stupid shit as he was saying.