Defeners/Le 90s Kids

[A-№1]

Oh, the Disco Sucks crowd was much bigger and rowdier than you give them credit for.

Oh I never said there weren't a lot of them. Or that they weren't rowdy. Or that they weren't passionate in their hatred for disco. It's just my recollection that most of the biggest, rowdiest, most passionate disco haters were kids. Certainly they were more into their hatred for disco than disco "fans" (though I think disco "consumers" is more accurate than "fans") were in support of it; for them it was just something to dance to while trying to hook up.

I personally think what really killed disco wasn't all the hate against it but rather two simple facts of the music marketplace in the '70s and '80s:

1. Disco was music people went to clubs to listen to and dance to, but not so much buy records of to listen to in their own homes.
2. The people who were actually buying records started including a number of ex-teens turned twenty-somethings (including many future '80s yuppies) who now had their own jobs and their own disposable incomes but retained their dislike for disco.

The music industry simply followed the money, though they made some strange (bad) decisions on the way. The very idea of disco radio stations quite frankly baffled me even then. I was never into disco, but I could understand the appeal it had for people who liked to dance. However the idea of people listening to it over the radio while at work etc. was completely ridiculous.

FWIW I think I read somewhere the top selling artists of the '70s were Fleetwood Mac and Simon & Garfunkel. No really, I am not making that up. Fleetwood fucking Mac. Both hardly qualify as disco or rock and roll. In fact I would be surprised if anything disco even made the list; maybe the Saturday Night Fever movie soundtrack, but if that's the case it's only because a lot of people saw that movie. Disco got a lot of butts into dance clubs and sold a lot of mixed drinks (also a lot of cocaine) but never sold a lot of records.

 

[Jonzun]

But seriously, the "Disco Sucks" thing was more generational than aesthetic. IIRC the disco scene was mainly 20-30 year olds and the "Disco Sucks" kids were all under 20 or so and too young to get into the dance clubs because the clubs served alcohol. And even if they did manage to get into a club (this was before 21 became the national drinking age), they were generally too young to get laid anyways, which, by my own observation, was most of the appeal of disco. So the whole "Disco Sucks" thing was in a large part sour grapes instead of a purely aesthetic opinion. Those over 20 who weren't into disco generally just ignored it as puff dance pablum, but usually didn't exhibit the hate and rage that the kids did. Given that some of those kids went on to start what would become punk, well they had a lot of rage to exhibit.

As far as the 20-30 year olds who did go to dance clubs, we have to remember that disco largely predates Betamax and even cable television in most areas, never mind widespread internet, so there wasn't a lot of in-the-home entertainment back then. People tolerated disco because there often wasn't much else to do on a Friday night, and going out drinking and dancing (and maybe getting laid) is better than going out just drinking which is better than staying home and watching one of the three channels total on the television. Truly the '70s were dark times.

I think that's a really important point to make; many youth cultures are rooted in generational rebellion which I would say Disco Sucks is no exception. I must admit I don't have much knowledge of the Disco Sucks movement outside of studying the aesthetics of dance music within a post-modernist context, so this is interesting to know.

The reason I chose to compare deafeners to Disco Sucks was more to argue how they are both regressive rather than revolutionary in their forms of rebellion. Initially I wanted to make the argument that both were anomalies in terms of youth subculture in that instead of rebelling their parents culture, they actively embraced it; however after you provided more context to the generational rebellion of disco it would make sense that its criticism of the genre didn't have to solely involve criticism of its aesthetics.

Did it work? Because that's really the only thing that matters there.

Haha, no. I'm going to be honest that I'm using the term date very loosely; this was a girl that was living in another country that I met on another forum but somehow found my dating profile on another site and started talking to me. I don't think I need to elaborate how things turned out.

 

[Abethedemon]

This one makes no sense.

 

[RecordStoreToughGuy]

Oh I never said there weren't a lot of them. Or that they weren't rowdy. Or that they weren't passionate in their hatred for disco. It's just my recollection that most of the biggest, rowdiest, most passionate disco haters were kids. Certainly they were more into their hatred for disco than disco "fans" (though I think disco "consumers" is more accurate than "fans") were in support of it; for them it was just something to dance to while trying to hook up.

I personally think what really killed disco wasn't all the hate against it but rather two simple facts of the music marketplace in the '70s and '80s:

1. Disco was music people went to clubs to listen to and dance to, but not so much buy records of to listen to in their own homes.
2. The people who were actually buying records started including a number of ex-teens turned twenty-somethings (including many future '80s yuppies) who now had their own jobs and their own disposable incomes but retained their dislike for disco.

The music industry simply followed the money, though they made some strange (bad) decisions on the way. The very idea of disco radio stations quite frankly baffled me even then. I was never into disco, but I could understand the appeal it had for people who liked to dance. However the idea of people listening to it over the radio while at work etc. was completely ridiculous.

FWIW I think I read somewhere the top selling artists of the '70s were Fleetwood Mac and Simon & Garfunkel. No really, I am not making that up. Fleetwood fucking Mac. Both hardly qualify as disco or rock and roll. In fact I would be surprised if anything disco even made the list; maybe the Saturday Night Fever movie soundtrack, but if that's the case it's only because a lot of people saw that movie. Disco got a lot of butts into dance clubs and sold a lot of mixed drinks (also a lot of cocaine) but never sold a lot of records.

Saturday Night Fever is something like the second best selling soundtrack of all time, so I wouldn't say nobody was buying disco albums. Problem was it was a fad (hell, KISS and Blondie released disco singles), and almost all of the songs began to sound alike after a while. Just like most pop music, a lot of disco was crap. We don't really have many "classic" disco songs still kicking around like other genres. Or maybe I'm not listening to the venues where it's played.

Not saying your analysis still isn't spot on; likely the reason SNF sold so well is because it's a soundtrack. Also, I think those same yuppies ended up spurring the New Wave movement, which has more than a few disco influences, even though a lot of people classify it as a sub-genre of punk.

 

[nad7155]

The music industry simply followed the money, though they made some strange (bad) decisions on the way.

That has always been the case.

 

[Meowthkip]

Saturday Night Fever is something like the second best selling soundtrack of all time, so I wouldn't say nobody was buying disco albums. Problem was it was a fad (hell, KISS and Blondie released disco singles), and almost all of the songs began to sound alike after a while. Just like most pop music, a lot of disco was crap. We don't really have many "classic" disco songs still kicking around like other genres. Or maybe I'm not listening to the venues where it's played.

Not saying your analysis still isn't spot on; likely the reason SNF sold so well is because it's a soundtrack. Also, I think those same yuppies ended up spurring the New Wave movement, which has more than a few disco influences, even though a lot of people classify it as a sub-genre of punk.

I dunno, man, Boney M.'s "Rasputin" should be considered a classic as far as I'm concerned.

 

[A-№1]

I think that's a really important point to make; many youth cultures are rooted in generational rebellion which I would say Disco Sucks is no exception.

Oh absolutely. Yes there were some older people who espoused Disco Sucks, but the vast, vast majority were kids. In fact now that I think about it, most of the older people were largely just in it to sell stuff to those kids.

The reason I chose to compare deafeners to Disco Sucks was more to argue how they are both regressive rather than revolutionary in their forms of rebellion.

I'm not so certain the defeners qualify as generational rebellion, though. They seem to be rejecting the musical choices of their peers rather than their parents. And the Disco Sucks kids weren't so much looking back to rock as looking aside from disco; there was plenty of contemporary rock and roll for them to consume. They weren't listening to Elvis etc. Meat Loaf's Bat Out of Hell came out in the '70s and was tremendously popular. Hell, most of the major hard rock groups now considered dinosaurs got their starts in the '70s with the Disco Sucks kids.

I think the defeners are more an example of just another regular old subculture like homestuck fans or bronies, only defeners have selected decades old popular music as their thing instead of a webcomic or plastic horse dolls.

this was a girl that was living in another country that I met on another forum but somehow found my dating profile on another site and started talking to me.

And she was someone you thought would be impressed by quoting Sarkeesian. Honestly, I suspect you dodged a bullet there.

Saturday Night Fever is something like the second best selling soundtrack of all time,

But again, it was a soundtrack album for an inexplicably popular movie. So it doesn't really reflect the success of disco record sales as a whole, and there were other non-disco albums that weren't soundtracks that sold a lot better. That Fleetwood Mac You Can Go Your Own Way album (I don't remember the actual title) sold a hell of a lot better than Saturday Night Fever in the 70s, and has probably managed to keep its sales lead even in the following decades (though for total sales up to today Pink Floyd probably blows both away).

The other thing about Saturday Night Fever is that because it was a soundtrack album, by definition it was pretty much a "best of genre" compilation. So just about every disco song that disco fans might actually want to buy to listen to in their home was on that one album. So disco fans (and Travolta fans) bought that one disco album and no others.

Yes some people were buying disco records, just not many of them. Not enough to keep the music industry's interest. If someone wants to take the effort of finding a list of top selling albums of the '70s, I have no doubt they'll find Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Eagles, The Stones, Simon and Garfunkel, and so on. I would be extremely surprised if Saturday Night Fever isn't the only disco album to make the list. You might find the Bee Gees in there somewhere, but probably for their pop stuff, not for any of their disco offerings.

Edit: I think it's important to add this. The thing about disco is that it really never was supposed to be thought of, or treated as an artistic genre in its own right. It's a genre, but not artistic. It was always just meant to be dance club background music for 20-30 year olds to listen to while they tried to hook up with each other. Upon hooking up and finally getting someone back home, the last thing they'd put on the hi-fi is more disco. That's the time for Marvin Gaye or Barry White, not the Bee Gees. Disco is basically elevator music for people who want to dance, and elevator music doesn't sell a lot of records either. Discussing the artistic merits of disco music is like debating the artistic merits of the prints on a roll of paper towels.

Problem was it was a fad (hell, KISS and Blondie released disco singles), and almost all of the songs began to sound alike after a while.

Is there anything KISS hasn't done to try to make a buck?

Also, I think those same yuppies ended up spurring the New Wave movement, which has more than a few disco influences, even though a lot of people classify it as a sub-genre of punk.

The people who classify New Wave with Punk are rarely punks. The Dead Kennedys once pulled off a brilliant stage act regarding that.

 

[RecordStoreToughGuy]

Ayup. I've never agreed with the people that lump New Wave with punk; to me it's always seemed to fit better as a midway between pop and rock. I think they just don't know what to do with it; the synthesizers frightened and confused the catalogers.

And I definitely agree with your assessment of the SNF soundtrack being a distillation of the best of the genre. If it hadn't had a movie behind it, it would not have reached as wide an audience, either. The Fleetwood Mac album you're looking for is Rumors, and it is possibly one of the legendary Best Albums Ever Recorded, and it's number three on the list of top selling albums of the 1970s. Saturday Night Fever is number 5, and it actually is the only disco album in the top ten. Michael Jackson's Off the Wall is the only other one in the top twenty at 19, which is actually surprising to me. The next album that could be considered disco is Earth, Wind, and Fire's All In All at a lowly number 68. There are no other disco artists on the list.

Incidentally, Pink Floyd's The Wall is the best selling album of the decade, and Led Zeppelin dominates the Top Ten with IV at number 2, Physical Grafitti at 7, and Houses of the Holy at 10.

It's funny that for as big a mark as it left on the 70s (it's probably the easiest shorthand for evoking the period next to bell bottom pants and avocado green kitchen appliances), it really was not as profitable as one would expect. One would think disco albums were flying off the shelves, but as you've pointed out, nobody was listening to them at home.

And yeah, if there's a way to make a buck doing something, KISS has probably tried it. XD

 

[A-№1]

Ayup. I've never agreed with the people that lump New Wave with punk; to me it's always seemed to fit better as a midway between pop and rock. I think they just don't know what to do with it; the synthesizers frightened and confused the catalogers

I think a lot of it was also due to the contemporaneous influx of actual punk bands with the new wavers. The industry wonks probably thought that because both were coming from the same place at the same time, they must be the same thing. (Yes, I know punk didn't just start in England, but a lot of people at the time weren't aware of that. Some still aren't.) Also so damn many things were crammed into the "New Wave" label by the record companies once it hit America that fuck knows what it actually means any more.

The Fleetwood Mac album you're looking for is Rumors, and it is possibly one of the legendary Best Albums Ever Recorded, and it's number three on the list of top selling albums of the 1970s.

Yeah, that was it. I kept thinking it was "Whispers" or something but I knew that couldn't be right. You may have noticed I'm not much of a Fleetwood Mac fan. I remember the record, and I remember that it was really popular. And I remember that for some time you simply could not get away from that fucking song (you can go your own way except for away from that goddamn song).

Saturday Night Fever is number 5, and it actually is the only disco album in the top ten.

I think that one album is also the sole reason why the Bee Gees claim to be a "top selling act of all time", even though it's not really their album. They're just on it.

Michael Jackson's Off the Wall is the only other one in the top twenty at 19, which is actually surprising to me. The next album that could be considered disco is Earth, Wind, and Fire's All In All at a lowly number 68. There are no other disco artists on the list.

Is Off the Wall really disco? I thought it was pop / funk. I'm not very familiar with EW&F, apart from recognizing the name, but I thought they were pop funk or soul as well. Maybe I should head on over to youtube to find a sample.

Incidentally, Pink Floyd's The Wall is the best selling album of the decade, and Led Zeppelin dominates the Top Ten with IV at number 2, Physical Grafitti at 7, and Houses of the Holy at 10.

Absolutely no surprises there.

It's funny that for as big a mark as it left on the 70s (it's probably the easiest shorthand for evoking the period next to bell bottom pants and avocado green kitchen appliances), it really was not as profitable as one would expect. One would think disco albums were flying off the shelves, but as you've pointed out, nobody was listening to them at home.

Well like I said above, disco was very profitable for club owners and liquor distributors and cocaine dealers, just not record labels. Because those things were the real core of the whole disco phenomenon. The music was almost incidental. Or at least for mainstream middle class vanilla white America it was. The music may have had more significance in the gay communities etc. where disco started but that's just baseless supposition from me.

Obligatory attempt to keep all this at least slightly on topic: Is there actually such a thing as a "disco defener"?

 

[Durable Mike Malloy]

Obligatory attempt to keep all this at least slightly on topic: Is there actually such a thing as a "disco defener"?

Of course there are! What better way to baffle and annoy one's parents, if one's parents are from the Disco Sucks generation?

"You don't understand me, Dad!" *runs into bedroom, slams door, starts blasting Donna Summer*

 

[RecordStoreToughGuy]

Off the Wall and the Earth, Wind and Fire albums all have multiple genres attached to them, mostly R&B, Soul, Funk, and Disco. I included them because of the mention, but if we wanted to reclassify them as funk and R&B exclusively, then SNF is relegated to the loneliest disco album on the top 100.

And yeah, there's some kid somewhere that's all "My school only listens to EDM like Tiesto and Daft Punk and I'm like DONNA SUMMER IS THE GREATEST DISCO SINGER EVER U PHILISTINES!"

 

[Mr. Duck]

I feel kinda embarrased to say this, but i used to be like these guys when i was on high school, but thank god it wasn't for too long, and since then i've been listening to a lot of different generes, i used to limit myself to 80's Thrash Metal and 70's classic rock (both of which i still enjoy), but then as i grew up i started listening to different stuff like Funk, Rap, Progressive Rock-Metal, Synthwave, and others, i believe these people will eventually grow up and realize how dumb they were by limiting themselves to just a few generes of music, but even then there are some people in their 20's or even 30's who still complain about "modern" music and how older stuff was better, Buckley explains this in more detail:

As for "Le 90's Kids XDD", most of them are people who are born mid to late 90's and barely remember (if they even remember) that decade, and try to associate a decade in which they barely lived as "better" because it makes them look "cool" between each other, there is nothing wrong with liking stuff from past decades, but when they try to associate an era which they don't belong as theirs and never stop talking about it as "DA BEST THING EVAR XDD" it becomes annoying as hell.

 

[Xarpho]

As for "Le 90's Kids XDD", most of them are people who are born mid to late 90's and barely remember (if they even remember) that decade, and try to associate a decade in which they barely lived as "better" because it makes them look "cool" between each other, there is nothing wrong with liking stuff from past decades, but when they try to associate an era which they don't belong as theirs and never stop talking about it as "DA BEST THING EVAR XDD" it becomes annoying as hell.

90s kids nothing. To put it in perspective, a college freshman entering college just this last September would've been in kindergarten when 9/11 happened.

 

[Durable Mike Malloy]

As for "Le 90's Kids XDD", most of them are people who are born mid to late 90's and barely remember (if they even remember) that decade, and try to associate a decade in which they barely lived as "better" because it makes them look "cool" between each other, there is nothing wrong with liking stuff from past decades, but when they try to associate an era which they don't belong as theirs and never stop talking about it as "DA BEST THING EVAR XDD" it becomes annoying as hell.

You know, I've been thinking about this probably a bit more than I should.

It's been repeatedly pointed out that defener kids latch on to mainstream media from previous generations, while reviling anything that is popular today. Moreover, this process is noticeably acritical - statements like "One Direction sucks! I love the Beatles!" are often made without any attempt to articulate why one artist or genre is preferable to another.

This leads one to suspect that media qua media are somewhat incidental to defeners. Like there is nothing actual music nerds enjoy more than explaining how the Neumann U247 condenser tube mike was integral to the Beatles' warm, full-bodied sound at the top end, whereas defeners are oddly disengaged from the nuts-and-bolts details of their supposed passion?

Some of these kids just seem to be antagonizing their friends who like popular things.

But others appear to be invested in a fantasy version of the past, in which they would've been the popular kids who liked cool stuff. The voice of history has told them which media stood the test of time, so they know what they should've liked if they had lived in a previous era. But if they had actually lived in the past, they would probably still be on the social margins, struggling to navigate the shifting sands of what is popular and what is good.

Perusing the lolcow threads, there are plenty of object lessons in the danger of not outgrowing the latter mindset. Like the annoying-as-hell phase is just a phase - it's really pathetic when people get stuck there forever.

 

[Coster]

90s kids nothing. To put it in perspective, a college freshman entering college just this last September would've been in kindergarten when 9/11 happened.

tfw me

Yeah, like, I don't see the point as labeling yourself the decade you were born, or want to be born in. We're all gonna die anyway.

 

[Jonzun]

I'm not so certain the defeners qualify as generational rebellion, though. They seem to be rejecting the musical choices of their peers rather than their parents. And the Disco Sucks kids weren't so much looking back to rock as looking aside from disco; there was plenty of contemporary rock and roll for them to consume. They weren't listening to Elvis etc. Meat Loaf's Bat Out of Hell came out in the '70s and was tremendously popular. Hell, most of the major hard rock groups now considered dinosaurs got their starts in the '70s with the Disco Sucks kids.

I think the defeners are more an example of just another regular old subculture like homestuck fans or bronies, only defeners have selected decades old popular music as their thing instead of a webcomic or plastic horse dolls.

Totally agreed, these were the points I was trying to make by defining them as regressive but I poorly worded my argument, so apologies. If anything deafeners are a poignant example of how we live in a time almost absent of a revolutionary youth subcultures, which I think is due in part to how the internet has arguably made all music mainstream by removing the boundaries of exclusion such as cost and location. I do still believe however that the development of deafeners is partly down to a reluctance of embracing progression in music, which follows a historical trend of hostility towards forms of dance music. Admittedly discussing how British music tabloids created a culture of "indie vs hip hop" in the late 80s / early 90s would have been a better example to base my argument on compared to the Disco Sucks movement due to the flaws which you correctly pointed out earlier.

 

[Trombonista]

Would MylarBalloonFan count as a defener?

 

[Colress]

what the fuck does defener mean?

 

[c-no]

Would MylarBalloonFan count as a defener?

IIRC, he thinks the technology of today is terrible compared to technology of the 90's, right? If he thinks something from the previous era is better than today, then it could make him a defener.

 

[Coster]

what the fuck does defener mean?

It's a misspelling of "defender."