Law Trump: Take Guns First, Due Process Second - Those Who Trade Freedom for Security Deserve and Receive Neither

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http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second
http://archive.is/wTOwY





President Trump on Wednesday voiced support for confiscating guns from certain individuals deemed to be dangerous, even if it violates due process rights.

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

Trump was responding to comments from Vice President Pence that families and local law enforcement should have more tools to report potentially dangerous individuals with weapons.

“Allow due process so no one’s rights are trampled, but the ability to go to court, obtain an order and then collect not only the firearms but any weapons,” Pence said.

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court," Trump responded.

Trump met with lawmakers on Wednesday to discuss gun laws and school safety in the aftermath of a Feb. 14 shooting at a high school in Parkland, Fla., that left 17 people dead.

The suspected shooter, Nikolas Cruz, was able to legally purchase the AR-15 reportedly used in the shooting despite numerous calls to law enforcement about his unstable behavior.
 
Speaking of the ATF... one of the fundamental problems with any debate over gun control--for or against--is that the agency created to enforce all the gun laws we pass has been deliberately hobbled by legislative riders and underfunded by Congress so that it can't even enforce the laws we already have on the books. As someone pointed out, the Brady Bill contains a lot of measures similar to what people are asking for today, but the ATF is honestly incapable of enforcing any of said laws or obeying its own regulations. Congress has even prevented the ATF from consolidating its records into a computer database, forcing them to go through box after box of paper archives instead.

So even if any new laws are passed, NRA-bought politicians will just make it almost impossible for the ATF to enforce them or investigate any violations. Even if violations are found, it takes many years for any kind of resolution or punishment. Both sides get what they want.


https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/atf-gun-laws-nra/

https://www.thetrace.org/2017/04/congress-atf-permanent-director-fast-and-furious/

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...ATF-underfunded-and-under-the-gun-5022600.php

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/01/12117/atfs-struggle-close-down-firearms-dealers
what a fucking rabbit hole. I never would've expected something like this to happen
 
So what's the underlying reason for the gun violence then? Lax parenting? Family Breakdown? Social breakdown? Education breakdown? Internet hugboxes? Lack of mental health resources and treatment? All of the above?
it's a complex topic with no easy answer. what has changed is the increasing isolation-yet-not-isolation that many school shooters seem to share, as many appear to be partially medicated, are socially isolated, yet have echo chambers and outlets for aggression online among like-minded fellows. that sort of isolation doesn't force someone to adapt and overcome adversity or change their behavior to something more socially acceptable, it seems to promote extremism and "stewing" where their impulses are rewarded with attention and a positive response. i'm not a psychologist, but that's completely different than when i was growing up in the 70's and 80's where nobody cared about guns, they cared about how you acted with them and if you were being threatening or unsafe.

i think that there has been so much panic and attempts to remove liability with zero tolerance that it breeding resentment and internalizing anxiety that some kids buckle under it and treat a gun like some holy relic of power. just my opinion, and probably not one shared by many.

I don't think anyone is interested in providing the funding to figure out what it is honestly. Humans are a near infinite and disposable resource.
people are interested. institutions are interested. politicians and the people that derive power from the debate and controversy in and of itself are not interested in it.

People on /r/guns already admit to buying magazines to guns they don't even own.
these sorts of people have a (justified) position that gun control equals confiscation or a complete ban and don't want to lose out on their ability to either profit from it or acquire it.

if gun control advocates don't want to constantly invoke paranoia and accusations of gun bans, they need to either stop dancing around the issue and push for an amendment that repeals the 2nd Amendment entirely; or they need to admit that they're utterly ignorant on firearms topics and listen to people that actually have advised workable, agreeable gun control backed by verifiable research into the topic (like Obama's $10 million CDC report).

unfortunately reality either has unfortunate implications (gun violence is almost entirely drug and gang related with an overwhelming representation among African-Americans stemming from economic and cultural disintegration of their family and community) or forces them to admit that no law will change anything, it is the actions of people that will (where many many of these shooters all have prior histories of violence and even arrests, yet none were reported or convicted of anything, ergo they are green-lit for a gun purchase).

on the other side you have gun rights advocates that refuse to accept more responsibility for control of their firearms. affirmative security for firearms you control is a solid way to stem the flow of firearms to criminals who overwhelming acquire their firearms from straw purchases (usually family members or intimate associates) or stolen from uninvolved persons who have them laying around unsecured.

i need to recuse myself from pretty much all of these threads; just read the laws - those are the things that are enforced and that will put you in prison and think about the mechanisms that both create those laws and feed information to law enforcement so they have a cause to act on their authority.
 
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it's a complex topic with no easy answer. what has changed is the increasing isolation-yet-not-isolation that many school shooters seem to share, as many appear to be partially medicated, are socially isolated, yet have echo chambers and outlets for aggression online among like-minded fellows. that sort of isolation doesn't force someone to adapt and overcome adversity or change their behavior to something more socially acceptable, it seems to promote extremism and "stewing" where their impulses are rewarded with attention and a positive response.

Please excuse the snipping for length.

There is a problem, which is not confined to the US, with there being a growing class of people who don't fit in - or at least perceive that they don't and are therefore unwilling to try - to our society as presently organised.

There have been significant socio economic changes in first world countries in the past four decades.

Unskilled or lightly skilled manual and manufacturing work has been significantly outsourced to developing nations. In the sixties, even the class muppets were going to get some kind of job after school, and in most first world countries, employment protections and unions were stronger, so as long as the muppets showed up most of the time, they would stay employed. This is no longer the case. Work instability is common even in the professions now. At the sharp end, zero hours contracts and termination without notice are a thing. There are still unskilled jobs available, but they are in the services sector. Food, retail, etc. That means customer facing. That means the people skills to not flake out on a bitch customer and to turn up mostly washed. Muppets don't always have these. Not having these means a spotty chain of minimum wage McJobs as a work history. That means struggling to house yourself, let alone improve your standard of living with time.

Educational systems reform has meant that attainment is now measured to a greater degree by ability to turn work in consistently, and to do group work. Increasing importance of service industries has ensured schools have been 'encouraged' to focus on softer skills like working in groups and presenting. Some people are naturally bad at these. Some people have difficulties with the consistent motivation to keep plodding along turning in your papers. These people are now doing worse on the current attainment measurements. That makes them less likely to obtain employment or enter further education.

Learning disabilities are better screened for and supported now. But they are often supported in 'additional learning streams' within mainstream school. So now there is a clearly identifiable class of people who would have been the 'slow' folk in a mainstream school decades ago (when the only alternative was special school and they weren't THAT fucking special) who are marked out as retards but expected to share spaces with the normies who they perceive (and to be fair, often do) look down their noses at them for being speds.

Socio economic changes, often deliberately encouraged by first world governments to improve tax takes and keep housing prices high, have quickly reshaped the normie family model into one where both parents work. Normie mothers of small kids no longer vacate the job market, freeing up room for younger misfits and speds. Wages in comparable terms have fallen in terms of what lifestyle they can buy you. In the sixties, seventies and even most of the eighties, a standard desk job for dad would support mum at home and a kid or two without significant financial hardship. This is no longer the case. This not only keeps women in the job market, it makes a spouse who can't work or won't work consistently a huge drag on the family's standard of living. It very markedly increases the chances of the kids growing up in poverty, or comparative poverty for their area. This has the knock on effect of making a potential life partner who can't bring home a regular wage unattractive as fuck to young normies who can and do bring home a regular wage.

This leaves a small, but identifiable subsection of the populace who are disproportionately likely to be worse off now in terms of their life chances than they would have been if born forty years ago.

They are disproportiately likely to be young, male, low income, have an identified learning disability, have poor educational attainment, limited or no work history, a restricted IRL social circle, and to be single and childless.

There is a unifying factor over and above that that they share. They feel life has given them a rough deal based on the above, they are pissed about it, and they are able thanks to the Wonders of the Internet to seek out amd find communities of others like themselves who will provide validation, a sense of belonging and an echo chamber for their grievances when their IRL circles tell them to lose weight, get a job, put down the vidya, get a girlfriend, and they don't believe those goals are attainable for them.

The internet is a place where mostly anonymous strangers can egg other mostly anonymous strangers on in their violent revenge fantasies. Most of the time it comes to nothing. But there are some real idiots and some real unhinged motherfuckers in these echo chambers, too.

Sometimes they get weapons, and they actually fucking do it.

This isn't a problem that will go away in first world countries without a lot of serious thought. In the UK, our gun laws are strict as fuck, and our speds go join Isis. In the US, your speds take guns to school.

You can pass laws making it harder for speds to do violent sped things, but reducing the number of dropout speds is going to be a lot fucking harder, and it's a problem that the political class doesn't want to look too closely at.
 
I'm glad to see we're a year+ in and Trump still believes its his role to wave magic wand and make inconvenient things go away without consequence.
 
So did Trump just shoot his chances for 2020 away?
Does he look like he ever had any?
Most people voted him just because Clinton was a super bad candidate. A vote for him was a move to shake the idiots of the democratic party and high class. And if the demos don't wake up, you'll definitely end up with a conservative counter-revolution.
People made fun of me in another thread for saying Trump won't be re-elected, but he's really more of a momentary event than a idol. He just does weird shit and people vent their frustrations on him
 
He was just as blasphemous to republican party policy during his run, LMAO remember when he denounced the wars started by the bush administration at a primary debate?? Everyone nearly shit a brick on stage. People voted for the guy, not the party or policies.

Shitting on Bush has been a conservative pasttime since like 2005, though. I don't know of any conservatives who are cool with confiscating guns illegally.
 
Shitting on Bush has been a conservative pasttime since like 2005, though. I don't know of any conservatives who are cool with confiscating guns illegally.
He wasn't shitting on bush, he was shitting on going to war after 9/11. If you don't like those examples you can use his complete disregard for family values via cheating on his wife constantly with women, talking about his dick size during the primary debates, never mind the secularism that he barely bothered to lie about. I'm not upset about any of this crap, it's just obvious he has no real party loyalty. He chose republican because it was a winnable primary imo. I don't know what would affect his 2020 prospects, it's almost entirely dependent on the democratic nominee.
 
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The video for the entire 28th meeting.
The transcript for the entire meeting.

TL;DR: It's a pretty interesting transcript and I recommend reading as much of it as you can, but the gist of it is that he spent quite a bit of time slapping Feinstein's nonsense to the floor with one-word replies, talking about removing the option for gun purchases from people who are clearly mentally ill, laughing at all of them for being frightened of the NRA instead of trying to work with them, taking a huge swipe at previous administrations for doing absolutely bugger-all to fix this mess, and generally just bonking Feinstein over the head whenever she starts trying to wander off into generic, anti-gun talking points.

Oh gosh it was a complete about-face just to drag people into the negotiating table, exactly how he'd done with his DACA negotiations. Geeze what a swell surprise that nobody could have possibly predicted.
 
This is just like with DACA when he offered Dems a plan a few months ago that was even more ambitious than the plan they wanted and yet they still walked away from it, and then he used it against them.

This though is a bit more concerning though since it's getting into constitutional territory. I'm just hoping it's another one of Trump's bait-and-switches though.
That's exactly what it is. He puts out some hints that he'd agree to something insanely against party lines (Like Amnesty with DACA) with zero intention of it ever happening.

It causes dems to go nuts and try to push half-baked, never-gonna-pass legislation.

Republicans act mad that Trump said it, rally against the dem bills, and effortlessly defeat them.

The end result is the dems looking crazy and being handed another loss while the repubs are rallied, get another win, and get to say "Trump knew what he was doing"
 
Please excuse the snipping for length.

There is a problem, which is not confined to the US, with there being a growing class of people who don't fit in - or at least perceive that they don't and are therefore unwilling to try - to our society as presently organised.

There have been significant socio economic changes in first world countries in the past four decades.

Unskilled or lightly skilled manual and manufacturing work has been significantly outsourced to developing nations. In the sixties, even the class muppets were going to get some kind of job after school, and in most first world countries, employment protections and unions were stronger, so as long as the muppets showed up most of the time, they would stay employed. This is no longer the case. Work instability is common even in the professions now. At the sharp end, zero hours contracts and termination without notice are a thing. There are still unskilled jobs available, but they are in the services sector. Food, retail, etc. That means customer facing. That means the people skills to not flake out on a bitch customer and to turn up mostly washed. Muppets don't always have these. Not having these means a spotty chain of minimum wage McJobs as a work history. That means struggling to house yourself, let alone improve your standard of living with time.

Educational systems reform has meant that attainment is now measured to a greater degree by ability to turn work in consistently, and to do group work. Increasing importance of service industries has ensured schools have been 'encouraged' to focus on softer skills like working in groups and presenting. Some people are naturally bad at these. Some people have difficulties with the consistent motivation to keep plodding along turning in your papers. These people are now doing worse on the current attainment measurements. That makes them less likely to obtain employment or enter further education.

Learning disabilities are better screened for and supported now. But they are often supported in 'additional learning streams' within mainstream school. So now there is a clearly identifiable class of people who would have been the 'slow' folk in a mainstream school decades ago (when the only alternative was special school and they weren't THAT fucking special) who are marked out as exceptional individuals but expected to share spaces with the normies who they perceive (and to be fair, often do) look down their noses at them for being speds.

Socio economic changes, often deliberately encouraged by first world governments to improve tax takes and keep housing prices high, have quickly reshaped the normie family model into one where both parents work. Normie mothers of small kids no longer vacate the job market, freeing up room for younger misfits and speds. Wages in comparable terms have fallen in terms of what lifestyle they can buy you. In the sixties, seventies and even most of the eighties, a standard desk job for dad would support mum at home and a kid or two without significant financial hardship. This is no longer the case. This not only keeps women in the job market, it makes a spouse who can't work or won't work consistently a huge drag on the family's standard of living. It very markedly increases the chances of the kids growing up in poverty, or comparative poverty for their area. This has the knock on effect of making a potential life partner who can't bring home a regular wage unattractive as fuck to young normies who can and do bring home a regular wage.

This leaves a small, but identifiable subsection of the populace who are disproportionately likely to be worse off now in terms of their life chances than they would have been if born forty years ago.

They are disproportiately likely to be young, male, low income, have an identified learning disability, have poor educational attainment, limited or no work history, a restricted IRL social circle, and to be single and childless.

There is a unifying factor over and above that that they share. They feel life has given them a rough deal based on the above, they are pissed about it, and they are able thanks to the Wonders of the Internet to seek out amd find communities of others like themselves who will provide validation, a sense of belonging and an echo chamber for their grievances when their IRL circles tell them to lose weight, get a job, put down the vidya, get a girlfriend, and they don't believe those goals are attainable for them.

The internet is a place where mostly anonymous strangers can egg other mostly anonymous strangers on in their violent revenge fantasies. Most of the time it comes to nothing. But there are some real idiots and some real unhinged motherfuckers in these echo chambers, too.

Sometimes they get weapons, and they actually fucking do it.

This isn't a problem that will go away in first world countries without a lot of serious thought. In the UK, our gun laws are strict as fuck, and our speds go join Isis. In the US, your speds take guns to school.

You can pass laws making it harder for speds to do violent sped things, but reducing the number of dropout speds is going to be a lot fucking harder, and it's a problem that the political class doesn't want to look too closely at.
This post is fucking great and addresses a lot of the issues surrounding gun control and mental illness. School shootings like this, that involve a whacked out sped shooting normies/their bullies, are a relatively recent phenomenon in American history. Nobody in politics will seriously address the deeper, darker, more dangerous faults of society and will instead try to pin everything down to one issue they can grandstand on. Aside from all the things you mentioned, which again are all excellent points, one thing to consider is that Americans value individualism far more than other people do; it's just something ingrained in our economic and political thinking, and is one of the reasons why the United States has emerged to become the world's superpower. However, the problem with individualism become apparent when it comes to societal norms. People have their own interests that they enjoy and views that they hold, which is fine so long as you don't try to force other people to like it. So whenever a sped on the fringe of society is reasonably told to stop being a sped for their own good, they feel existentially challenged to give up what makes them them and they lash out, sometimes violently.

As it relates to Trump's comments: I disagree with them because I feel they violate the constitution. Another problem is the guidelines in which someone would have their guns taken away: Who gets to decide what mental illness and what actions someone has to take to qualify for their right to bear arms being taken away? It really is a slippery slope that some other politician down the line can use to justify more harsh measure against their political enemies.
I will say that I agree with Trump's comments about mental institutions. Yes, there were abuses going on and they can't be ignored, but mental institutions were at the very least a place to keep the crazies off the street or away from their families that don't want/couldn't take care of them.
 
the ATF is legally bound to not use the background checks as any form of gun registry. that's directly in the law because national gun registries, historically, are completely worthless, are expensive to maintain, and are virtually instantly out of date unless there is a mechanism to consistently update them. that isn't hobbling - that's reality.

It's also not something the feds are really equipped to do. Things like the vast majority of licensing and registration are traditionally exercises of state police power. States are better equipped to maintain such things.
 
And what would you say those faults are?

The post I quoted points out some of those faults with respect to why people feel left out in society, in addition to what I posted about individualism. I don't want to get too deep into it, because there's no easy answer to that and I'd have to write a lengthy essay about it, but the gist of it is that the problems with western civilization in general happened with World War I and were further exasperated with World War II. The third just as damaging catastrophe (although in a different way) is deindustrialization, the effects of which have had grave consequences that no politician is willing to address or can really do anything about. Basically, people in general, not just the speds, feel completely left behind in the current system. Again, I don't want to write an essay on this so I'll leave it at that.
One of the faults I will talk about is that the massive expansion in government power over the last century has led to a dependency on politicians and bureaucracies to fix everything, which of course has only made things worse because most politicians are out of touch weirdos that are terrible at their job. Our bureaucracies are similarly incompetent; for the gun control debate, just look at the ATF, the organization that would in effect be responsible for enforcing any gun legislation. It has a long history of massive fuckups that have gotten people killed (Ruby Ridge, Waco, the numerous gunrunning operations to Mexican cartels, etc.), yet the solution for a lot of people is to give them more power until they inevitably fuck up big time again. It's an endless cycle of the government creating a problem that the government has to fix.
 
Please excuse the snipping for length.

There is a problem, which is not confined to the US, with there being a growing class of people who don't fit in - or at least perceive that they don't and are therefore unwilling to try - to our society as presently organised.

There have been significant socio economic changes in first world countries in the past four decades.

Unskilled or lightly skilled manual and manufacturing work has been significantly outsourced to developing nations. In the sixties, even the class muppets were going to get some kind of job after school, and in most first world countries, employment protections and unions were stronger, so as long as the muppets showed up most of the time, they would stay employed. This is no longer the case. Work instability is common even in the professions now. At the sharp end, zero hours contracts and termination without notice are a thing. There are still unskilled jobs available, but they are in the services sector. Food, retail, etc. That means customer facing. That means the people skills to not flake out on a bitch customer and to turn up mostly washed. Muppets don't always have these. Not having these means a spotty chain of minimum wage McJobs as a work history. That means struggling to house yourself, let alone improve your standard of living with time.

Educational systems reform has meant that attainment is now measured to a greater degree by ability to turn work in consistently, and to do group work. Increasing importance of service industries has ensured schools have been 'encouraged' to focus on softer skills like working in groups and presenting. Some people are naturally bad at these. Some people have difficulties with the consistent motivation to keep plodding along turning in your papers. These people are now doing worse on the current attainment measurements. That makes them less likely to obtain employment or enter further education.

Learning disabilities are better screened for and supported now. But they are often supported in 'additional learning streams' within mainstream school. So now there is a clearly identifiable class of people who would have been the 'slow' folk in a mainstream school decades ago (when the only alternative was special school and they weren't THAT fucking special) who are marked out as exceptional individuals but expected to share spaces with the normies who they perceive (and to be fair, often do) look down their noses at them for being speds.

Socio economic changes, often deliberately encouraged by first world governments to improve tax takes and keep housing prices high, have quickly reshaped the normie family model into one where both parents work. Normie mothers of small kids no longer vacate the job market, freeing up room for younger misfits and speds. Wages in comparable terms have fallen in terms of what lifestyle they can buy you. In the sixties, seventies and even most of the eighties, a standard desk job for dad would support mum at home and a kid or two without significant financial hardship. This is no longer the case. This not only keeps women in the job market, it makes a spouse who can't work or won't work consistently a huge drag on the family's standard of living. It very markedly increases the chances of the kids growing up in poverty, or comparative poverty for their area. This has the knock on effect of making a potential life partner who can't bring home a regular wage unattractive as fuck to young normies who can and do bring home a regular wage.

This leaves a small, but identifiable subsection of the populace who are disproportionately likely to be worse off now in terms of their life chances than they would have been if born forty years ago.

They are disproportiately likely to be young, male, low income, have an identified learning disability, have poor educational attainment, limited or no work history, a restricted IRL social circle, and to be single and childless.

There is a unifying factor over and above that that they share. They feel life has given them a rough deal based on the above, they are pissed about it, and they are able thanks to the Wonders of the Internet to seek out amd find communities of others like themselves who will provide validation, a sense of belonging and an echo chamber for their grievances when their IRL circles tell them to lose weight, get a job, put down the vidya, get a girlfriend, and they don't believe those goals are attainable for them.

The internet is a place where mostly anonymous strangers can egg other mostly anonymous strangers on in their violent revenge fantasies. Most of the time it comes to nothing. But there are some real idiots and some real unhinged motherfuckers in these echo chambers, too.

Sometimes they get weapons, and they actually fucking do it.

This isn't a problem that will go away in first world countries without a lot of serious thought. In the UK, our gun laws are strict as fuck, and our speds go join Isis. In the US, your speds take guns to school.

You can pass laws making it harder for speds to do violent sped things, but reducing the number of dropout speds is going to be a lot fucking harder, and it's a problem that the political class doesn't want to look too closely at.
Shit I couldn't have said it better myself. Had the same idea but I couldn't quite articulate it. I don't know how old you are but even so I imagine you probably don't remember the time right after Columbine where Rosie O'Donnell ambushed Tom Selleck on her show about the NRA since he has been an active member and a conservative Hollywood actor. Selleck is a member of the NRA board and at the time (May 1999) did an ad for the "I am the NRA" campaign.

She was pretty classless in her attack and he brought up some great points. Back in the day a troubled young man would take a gun and blow his brains out. Now (and keep in mind this was almost 20 years ago when he said it but it still is valid) they nurse a hurt and go and kill a bunch of people before taking their own lives. He asked "What has changed?" I think this post is the answer to that.

We have become a colder, more violent society not just here in the US but the world in general. Hearing stories from former prison guards in my line of work (sad fact is that Texan prison guards make less than a security guard like me...yeesh) that the prison industrial complex is all kinds of fucked up. I don't know if I mentioned the stories of people getting crazy sentences and the parole system is all kinds of fucked up. It's big business to cage people for crimes. The problem is, you don't really reform most people doing that, you just make them more violent and ruthless. After all, if you're going to send them back to that cage, why not shoot it out with the cops or go for broke in general?

I'm not trying to blame violent media because I watch it and while I own guns, I myself can't imagine the horrifying reality it is to use a weapon on another human being. I've hunted and I have seen what my guns are capable of doing. Someone who only consumes media that glorifies or downplays what it does to another living creature may make someone who is already kinda possessing some loose screws in the head to not fully appreciate the ramifications and responsibilities of owning a deadly weapon.

I however am not an isolated loner. I have a small close knit circle of friends and I am close with my immediate family and maintain gainful, if modest, employment. So while not a giant party animal, I can't relate to someone who is socially isolated and sees no hope for the future.

Anyways, for anyone curious, here's the best clip I could find for it. I understand people who want to restrict or ban guns, but I view it as a very emotional response. Selleck was classy as he always is and Rosie just comes off as a giant bitch.

 
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