[–]Significant-Oil-8254
I mean
I've met some pretty entitled trans women in my time but
they're definitely in the minority
[–]Nabi1990
I've never liked this allegedly universal "socialised as a box of stereotypes" kind of thinking.
Wouldn't a cis girl growing up with lots of brothers potentially be "socialised as a boy" to some extent (in terms of stereotypical behaviour)? I guess people do treat men differently from women, but that basically only applies to cishet men and women. The moment you're neither, you're treated as someone different, and usually not in a good way (at least growing up in the nineties and early two thousands in Eastern Europe, it felt like that).
I do relate to almost everything OP writes about trans girls growing up, since I'm a trans woman who's afraid of her own shadow, too (and I didn't have many friends growing up because I didn’t fit in with the boys, but when I tried to make friends with girls, awkward rumours and misunderstandings followed).
It's surprising how many unnecessary assumptions people make purely based on physical appearance without thinking about that person possibly having a personality as well.
[–]girl_skyrim_luv
I had a trans man try to say this shit to me on sunstack. It was the most infuriating and awful conversation I have had with a tranaperson.
It took all I had not to commit the ad hominem of turning it back and saying that he was just a misogynistic rock that didn't understand the experience of a real woman.
[–]BooperOfManySnoots
I keep saying this, pre realization gay people aren't "socialized straight", pre realization disabled people aren't "socialized abled", etc. But for SOME REASON (transmisogyny)
it's ok to say that trans women are socialized male, SO ok in fact that it's something I've even heard inside trans spaces. It's a really handy tool for unsercutting conversation about the unique axis of oppression that trans women very much do face, as well as a way to undercut general validity of our gender and experiences. It is first and foremost a transmisogynistic tool of oppression, and even if those who use it do not realize it it is 100% "a way to shut up those whiny tr
nny bitches so we can keep exploiting them for sex and social leverage". Some of the biggest offenders of this I've seen have *been trans men, who are at the end of the day not oppressed along transmisogynistic lines are are still, as men, very much capable of benefiting from this exploitation, as all men of a certain marginalization are for women of their same one.
[–]WashSufficient907
I think it is extremely valid to mention the way that binaries and gender roles which are forced upon us shape our experiences. There shouldnt be any particular way a man or woman should have to behave, but there ARE those expectations and it can be so dysphoric to experience!
My gf, for example, hates the way she was forced to be, as you said, socialized as a male person growing up and it feels freeing and euphoric to step away from that. Socialization, culture, community, etc are all relevant to one's experience w gender and that can be both positive and harmful.
I also feel like you are ignoring what that person was trying to say, which is that afab and amab people may have different experiences transitioning due to having being forced to experience a" male" or "female" puberty. May not be relevant to everyone, but please don't discount the experiences of people who are different than you!
Edit: holy wow,
y'all would so much rather twist someone's words/tone to suit your discomfort than listen to trans men or afab folx who may have different experiences with gender than you 
Immediately writing them off as a terf instead of considering gender outside of your own individual experience or thinking with some nuance and objectivity is insane to me. Not to mention,
anyone who has ever lived as a male, consensually or not, has experienced male privilege. That's probably what they mean by "entitlement" and it doesnt matter if you were shy or fem or percieved as gay or whatever!!! They didn't express themselves the best as they could have and y'all are taking it as a personal attack instead of an opportunity to learn about other people's experiences with transitioning.
Y'all really fail to show up for the community outside of your own in this sub and this does nothing but stifle understanding amongst the trans community. Think beyond your own sensitivity and insecurity for once.
Your transmisogyny and you bringing into trans subs some stupid gender wars are not welcome here.
You are the one here who is discounting the experiences of people who are different than you. Please read, learn, and don't feel entitled to speak over us. Thank you.
[–]TouchingSilver
I've always categorically refuted the notion that I was "socialised as male". Family and society certainly had a damn good go at socialising me as male, but they were throughly unsuccesful. Defying male socialisation from an early age means you're never afforded any of the potential benefits of that socialisation. They are always kept locked away from you.
If experiencing constant ridicule, humiliation, chastisement and violence is "having male privilege" then you can bloody well keep it, thank you very much.
I was acutely aware of the fact that I was never treated on an equal footing with the male members of my family who where a similar age to me. I was always treated as lesser and inferior. And defying male socialisation was absolutely the reason why that was.
My sister actually got away with murder, whereas I was brutalised regularly with no justification purely because I didnt meet the requirements excepted of me just because of what I had between my legs when I was born. I never had male privilege and will always dismiss assertions to the contrary from ignoramuses who know damn all about me.
[–]IHerdULiekPoniz
i was socialized a beast of burden. a horrible, malformed creature whose every movement creaked and gasped like a warning, or perhaps a prayer to be released from this mortal shell.
[–]Stunning_Actuary8232
Frankly, this is TERF coded language. It’s BS, as you noted we were never socialized as male.
They tried to brainwash us and torture us, but we never socialized male. All the while knowing we’re female and hearing and internalizing the misogyny spewed forth by our culture. We socialized female because we are female. The just tried to beat the male into us, which of course didn’t work, but hurt like hell itself. Between the misogyny we internalized and the hatred towards trans women in particular (because it’s bad to be a woman so no one should be one if they theoretically have access to male privilege, it’s sacrilege to give that up [like we have a choice]) is it any wonder we’re afraid of our own shadows and want to hide from society? People are such effing idiots, TERFs in particular who are just tools of the patriarchy.
[–]Bugaloon
Being socialised male was such a surreal experience, you had people like your FATHER making sexist comments like it was nothing and you'd get hit and ostracised if you didn't agree and join in. I still remember as like a 14 y/o driving in the car with my dad and he whistled at a lady we drove past, then he awkwardly tried to explain why that was normal acceptable behaviour to my dumb ass only for it to end up being a problem with ME that I didn't understand it
[–]Ryli_Faelan
Saying we're socialized as entitled boys is laughable. I've always been extremely sheepish, shy, anxiety ridden, and had a major inferiority complex. I'm still recovering from that. And then I met other trans girls and found that a LOT of us are like that, most likely because society has taught us to hate ourselves and think of ourselves as inferior to cis people.
This person isn't an ally if they're speaking FOR you and not actually willing to break down their perceptions of us and listen to you.
[–]KozenyCarman
"Yep. Ok. I was socialized male, got it.
And what would you say about a hypothetical cis girl who was socialized the exact same way I was? Told by everyone that she was a guy all her life only to realize otherwise when she was well into adulthood. Would she also be a socialized entitled boy? Or would you have an ounce of empathy to spare for her?"
[–]CosmicCultist23
No but seriously.
It's a mistake to assume that people wielding "male socialization" are acting with any degree of good faith (it DOES happen, but it's generally just another tool people use to try to invalidate trans women and will likely be replaced by another tool the moment it's shown not to be effective).
Personally,
I of course always look back at my own history with "male socialization" and find it laughable that anyone would think I had anything like a "normal boyhood" as far as socialization is concerned. I never really vibed with masculinity, and I was always pushing against the masculine expectations placed on me, intentionally and not. I was the only "boy" child regularly in the house(s), and I have three slightly younger sisters. My dad's side of the family was and is very conservative fundamentalist christian, and so we got a LOT of gendered messaging about "modesty", "purity", "proper man/womanhood", and things like that.
I didn't understand why there was more of a focus on modesty and purity towards my sisters, and I found myself internalizing a lot of the messaging that was intended for them. So even in that clearly and strictly gendered environment and with no real understanding of myself and my identity, I STILL found myself as a fourteen year old "boy" being terrified to tell my dad that I had a girlfriend, or feeling guilty/immodest for wearing shorts above the knees, and things like that.
Very silly. Very dumb. Very inaccurate and useless as a tool for criticism or really anything except to open the door to a more complex discussion.
[–]Throttle_Kitty
I was raised by women who aren't subservient, quite, and obedient, and will call out any fucking sexist prick who thinks those traits are inherent to or required by womanhood.
If you think because im a trans woman you're allowed to be sexist to me, you're an agent of the patriarchy and an enemy to all women.
[–]wackyvorlon
We were not socialized male, we were traumatized.
[–]louisa1925
I didn't get socialised either way. Spent most of my time alone.
[–]Mysterious_Alarm_160
Many of us bullied and unable to fit in especially with the 'entitled boys'
[–]Nic0ko
Not even all cis straight men are male socialized. Male socialization does absolutely exist, but acting as if every single amab person is inherently male socialized solely due to their anatomy is pure bioessentialism and borderline eugenics. Not to mention, male socialization isn’t even gender-specific.
Conservative southern white cis women are arguably more male-socialized and are more likely to uphold patriarchal norms than queer/poc cis men. There’re a lot of factors that contribute to male-socialization, or broadly speaking, gender-socialization. This is exactly as to why omnicausality and intersectionality are so important. TERFs fail at both.
[–]One-Organization970
The only thing my experience of being treated as a male gave me was the ability to articulate precisely how many ways women are fucked over in how we get treated. Weird to go from being treated like a person to not.
[–]SCP-iota
If they're a cis woman, try explaining it to them like this: imagine starting a new job and, on your first day, noticing that the men at the company tend to not take the other women seriously. It's just the first part of your first day, so you haven't personally been on the receiving end of the misogyny yet, but you can already tell it's there because, as someone who relates to other women more than to men, you notice and internalize the way you see the place treating the other women, and that shapes how you are when you're there.
It's the same type of thing for trans women: even before we consciously know it, we relate more to women than to men, so we see a patriarchal world from day one and that affects our socialization the way it also affects cis women, even if the patriarchy isn't personally enforced on us yet.
For most of the people who go on about trans women having male socialization, when pressed,
they will eventually reveal that they don't actually believe that trans women have always had female brains.
I think those are the same general "type" of girls (autists who don't quite fit in)--and "trans" is how it all gets acted out now days.
