Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[A Very Big Fish]

And then a sequel is made where the blind veteran is now the protagonist after the revelation from the previous movie.

I doubt Stella will that treatment in Season 3.

I didn't know it got a sequel. That is... baffling.

 

[LucasSomething]

Interesting thread on vox not being a thread.

https://old.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1nk9tpx/i_find_it_impossible_to_see_vox_as_a_real_threat/

Let me explain.

I saw a new poster for Hazbin season 2 where Charlie, Sera, and Emily look scared.

So the main antagonist in Hazbin season 2 is allegedly going to be Vox and the other Vees. And from what we have gotten, it looks like they are trying to rise up against heaven.

After watching Helluva Boss and Hazbin season 1, I just... can't take them seriously. My main problem is well... the powerscaling both series have set up.

I'm not talking about pixel scaling or even calculations, I'm talking about the hierarchy of hell itself.

First, In helluva boss, we see the Goetia's. Most notably, Stolas. We see Stolas be insanely powerful. He can turn people to stone, summon himself to Earth, posses people. He's insane when compared to any sinner we have seen.

To top it all off, we see the sins, and Satan makes stolas literally look like nothing.

In season 1 of Hazbin, we see Adam make a complete fool out of Alastor, Vox's rival. And had pretty much free reign before Lucifer stepped in. Even though the Hazbin gang had holy weapons. Adam was literally taking on an Army of Sinners (even though there were other exorcists, Charlie and Vaggie agreed he was the one who needed to be dealt with)

So, why am I bringing up Adam, Stolas, and Satan?

Well, it's simple, as stated before, Lucifer stopped Adam, and thanks to the known hierarchy, Lucifer is ABOVE Satan and Stolas.

And Heaven should have other characters like Lucifer, right? Unless I'm completely wrong and Lucifer is actually the strongest character in the verse. (Well, probably besides God, but that's a whole other can of beans)

But I guess my point is that sinners in hell feel underwhelming powerful, and it's hard to see Vox leading an army of them as threatening tbh. Or at least threatening enough to make the characters in the poster feel scared.

These powerscalers are right, Vox is below goetia and sins. Even if Alastor is a fraud, there is no way Vox realistically he on the same level as Adam or any top tier, unless you give him crazy plot armor or make the heroes be stupid, which is not impossible considering how Stolas was easily jumped by striker.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

These powerscalers are right, Vox is below goetia and sins. Even if Alastor is a fraud, there is no way Vox realistically he on the same level as Adam or any top tier, unless you give him crazy plot armor or make the heroes be stupid, which is not impossible considering how Stolas was easily jumped by striker.

I think the way Vox can work as a threat is if Season 2 is split into two plots where Sera and Emily are dealing with the ramifications of the Exorcist stuff being well known as well as Pentious going to Heaven. There's also Lute and Eve who could cause problems up there.

Vox would be the threat that Charlie would have to deal with especially when he's taking in all the sinners who Charlie wants to redeem which is a personal threat to her.

Lucifer would either need to be written out somehow or be into conflict with Charlie as while he supports her dream, the shit with Vox would probably justify his earlier resentment of sinners.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

I mean, St.Peter is def gay in every possible way. Also, I said once, but will repeate it. Thanks Viv, huuuge thanks for having a serial killer pansy being ace. Really love such representation, really makes me wanna spring from joy and buy more of your declining merch.

I'm convinced the only reason Alastor is ace is because if he had any sexual interests, people would rightfully point out that he at least partly killed for sexual pleasure (as most serial killers do when they claim a victim, be it overt like Gacy or Bundy, or more subtle reasonings) and Viv can't have Alastor actually turn out to be evil.

These powerscalers are right, Vox is below goetia and sins. Even if Alastor is a fraud, there is no way Vox realistically he on the same level as Adam or any top tier, unless you give him crazy plot armor or make the heroes be stupid, which is not impossible considering how Stolas was easily jumped by striker.

I said it before ITT, but if you really had to have this be S2, then the villains should have been Overlords in general trying to sabotage the Hotel and gather even more power for themselves instead of just the Vees, reason being most of them actually liked the exterminations (mainly because it gave an incentive for Sinners to sell their souls to people in exchange for more safety during them) and Sir Pentious' redemption means there's potentially a way out of contracts and many of the new Sinners from here on out are going to straight to the hotel before even thinking about going to an Overlord.

You could of course have the Vees still be the face of the Overlords and the big threat at the very end of the season, but all the actions shown the material we got where they're trying to take down Charlie's reputation is widely and officially supported by all (or at the very least vast majority of) the Overlords. It won't be perfect, but the stakes would make a lot more sense.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

I really wished Viv kept moxies mom to be that type of mom that guilt trips and always has that passive aggressive tone

Moxxie's mom doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it for more than five seconds. She hates violence and killing...but decided to marry a mob boss. There's also the fact that she's a Wrathian where violence is encouraged and even priased. So why she is like this, I have no clue.

Which brings up another issue. Moxxie seems to take after his mother and is uncomfortable with senseless killing for the most part. So...how did he end up falling for Millie? In the original pilot, it made more sense as he was only a bit of snob but very much adored Millie's violent nature. He wrote and sung an entire song about it. But in the actual show, he has a moral compass that prevents him from killing randos that aren't a target and even struggles with some of the targets themselves if he feels they don't deserve. Meanwhile, Millie will go on a killing rampage and actually enjoy the bloody carnage she causes.

This just came to my mind because the more I think of Moxxie and Millie being a couple, the less I'm now seeing actual reasons for why either one love each other the way they do.

I'm convinced the only reason Alastor is ace is because if he had any sexual interests, people would rightfully point out that he at least partly killed for sexual pleasure (as most serial killers do when they claim a victim, be it overt like Gacy or Bundy, or more subtle reasonings) and Viv can't have Alastor actually turn out to be evil.

Well technically, being asexual means you have little or no sexual attraction to other people. You can still have sexual desires. So him finding a sexual thrill in cannibalizing people is still very much possible.

 

[The tired cat]

Well technically, being asexual means you have little or no sexual attraction to other people. You can still have sexual desires. So him finding a sexual thrill in cannibalizing people is still very much possible.

Is the cannibal aspect even a thing anymore? Like, I feel like even that's been tossed into a bin. We never see Al eat corpses (we only see him dine on a elk when he's in his room), you cannot call eating the loansharks as cannibalism, and seems he only visits the cannibal district for Rosie. Heck, even in the flashbacks when he was mortal there didn't seem there was any indication of cannibalism.

In the original pilot, it made more sense as he was only a bit of snob but very much adored Millie's violent nature.

You can tell in the pilot they were these polar opposites of each other, Millie was a hothead and kill crazy, while Moxxie was more professional and zoned in on the target. Hence why their romance worked and was rather nice. But as you said, him having this weird moral compass, does make you ask "Wait, HOW are you two married anyway?"

Moxxie's mom doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it for more than five seconds. She hates violence and killing...but decided to marry a mob boss. There's also the fact that she's a Wrathian where violence is encouraged and even priased. So why she is like this, I have no clue.

Honestly, only way I can see it working if when she was young, she was basically the same kill crazy wild girl that Millie is. Hence why she and Crimson fell in love for each other and maybe she helped him rise to power faster, but when she had Moxxie, her killing urges have died down, as desire for him to have a good childhood took over.

 

[Gondolindrim]

Reminds me of the movie Don't Breathe.

The "villain" is a blind army vet, who lost his child in an accident, who three young adults decide to rob. So of course, any normal person is cheering for him when he wastes the first kid. Then the film seems to realize that the villain is actually way too sympathetic, and suddenly the plot hard pivots and they reveal something completely vile about the blind old man to try to shift sympathy from the vet to the thieves.

Of course, the issue is that its entirely possible to like none of the characters, which is how I left the movie.

That's what I thought Last House On The Left would be: Asshole protagonists against evil villains running a scooby doo spookhouse, but no the family in the house is clearly the sympathetic party and the gang of rapists remain the bad guys. Like it's not hard to establish good and bad, it's pretty basic narrative.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Honestly, only way I can see it working if when she was young, she was basically the same kill crazy wild girl that Millie is. Hence why she and Crimson fell in love for each other and maybe she helped him rise to power faster, but when she had Moxxie, her killing urges have died down, as desire for him to have a good childhood took over.

Or Crimson could have been different when they first met and he gradually changed over the years. Or he might have manipulated her - we see in the show that like any good psychopath he can affect a charming facade when he wants to. Either way she might have stayed with him out of love or hoping to "fix him".

 

[Tablet County]

Hitler's relationship with the subject of religion was... complex. To put it shortly (and incompletely), while he did believe in God (in opposition to the popular opinion of him being an atheist/catholic, whatever fuels the arguer's narrative), he was NOT a fan of the teachings of Christianity, Protestantism, or even his own initial Catholicism either. He def loved what Islam was up to though. Also a huge Nietzsche fanboy.

Should I also mention Himmler's obsession with the occult?

I'm open to corrections/additions by people more well-versed on the subject than I am.

There's a story I've heard that may or may not be true where it's said that Hitler once told Mussolini that he believed he was the incarnation of an ancient Aryan spirit (or something to that effect) and Benito described himself as being "completely disoriented" for several hours.
I choose to believe it's true because it's funny, and the funny things are always true.

I'm actually glad you brought him up, because Lewis is a really good illustration of the problem with so many modern-day creatives and why so many of them seem to pale in comparison with people like him. Lewis was a very smart man with a vivid imagination who was incredibly well-read and intellectually curious. He also had a life full of experiences, both positive and negative, that went on to influence him as a writer, person, and theologian. His mother died when he was a kid and he was left with a distant and demanding father and got shuttled around to various schools and tutors. He served in WWI as an infantry officer, lost several friends, and was nearly killed himself by an errant artillery shell. One of his friends who died had asked him to look after his mother if he was killed, and Lewis took this request so seriously that he went to live with her and spent the rest of her life taking care of her. He rejected his Christian faith as a teenager and spent a long time, as he put it, being "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world." He ultimately returned to Christianity after years of atheism thanks to the influence of his friends Tolkien and Hugo Dyson and wound up becoming one of the foremost lay theologians the Church of England ever produced. All throughout his academic career, he worked with and taught many very smart people, and his friends in the Inklings, including Tolkien, Owen Barfield, and Charles Williams, helped him refine the Space Trilogy and the Narnia series. They also occasionally did competitions where they read aloud from the books of legendarily shitty author Amanda McKittrick Ros to see who could read her drivel the longest without laughing, so sitting around and mocking no-talent lolcows over a beer is a grand and honorable tradition that we should all be proud of.

When you put it like that it makes wanting to be creative in the modern age feel like a lost cause.

 

[A Very Big Fish]

There's a story I've heard that may or may not be true where it's said that Hitler once told Mussolini that he believed he was the incarnation of an ancient Aryan spirit (or something to that effect) and Benito described himself as being "completely disoriented" for several hours.

I don't know if that specifically was true, but Hitler did have a weird theory about nations/people groups having a kind of "spirit".

Honestly, the best way to describe Hitler's religion is "unique". There was a video I saw where the Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin went through everything he could find out about Hitler's religion, and called Hitler, "a Pseudo-Scientific Evolutionary Pantheist."

I'll just quote Norm Macdonald:

"The more I learn about this "Hitler" fella, the more I don't care for him."

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

I don't know if that specifically was true, but Hitler did have a weird theory about nations/people groups having a kind of "spirit".

Honestly, the best way to describe Hitler's religion is "unique". There was a video I saw where the Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin went through everything he could find out about Hitler's religion, and called Hitler, "a Pseudo-Scientific Evolutionary Pantheist."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DU1AG3hlG0M
I'll just quote Norm Macdonald:

"The more I learn about this "Hitler" fella, the more I don't care for him."

Look, Hitler was a weird dude. He was a vegetarian and was against animal cruelty even when he oversaw the Final Solution.

 

[LucasSomething]

Moxxie's mom doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it for more than five seconds. She hates violence and killing...but decided to marry a mob boss. There's also the fact that she's a Wrathian where violence is encouraged and even priased. So why she is like this, I have no clue.

-vivzie wants every character to have daddy issues and angst
-vivzie hates women = mom dies = she was a saint so you feel sad regardless if it makes no sense
-vivzie likes mafia suits so moxie's clone I MEAN dad is an evil mob boss regardless if it makes no sense

I believe this is how much thought vivzie puts on these things.

 

[Re(Runner)48]

-vivzie wants every character to have daddy issues and angst
-vivzie hates women = mom dies = she was a saint so you feel sad regardless if it makes no sense
-vivzie likes mafia suits so moxie's clone I MEAN dad is an evil mob boss regardless if it makes no sense

I believe this is how much thought vivzie puts on these things.

Okay so what I dont understand is Moxxie saying his dad didn't have to be like that. NIGGA WHAT?!? YOU'RE IN HELL!! HES A DEMON YOU'RE A DEMON!! YOU EXPECT YOUR FATHER BORN FROM (where ever the hell Imps originally came from.) TO BE A NICE GUY!? ARE YOU A RETARD?

I honestly dont get the thoughts behind this comparison. They aren't nor were Imps ever human. If anything they should all be anomalies because they even have the compacity to love another person.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Okay so what I dont understand is Moxxie saying his dad didn't have to be like that. NIGGA WHAT?!? YOU'RE IN HELL!! HES A DEMON YOU'RE A DEMON!! YOU EXPECT YOUR FATHER BORN FROM (where ever the hell Imps originally came from.) TO BE A NICE GUY!? ARE YOU A RETARD?

I honestly dont get the thoughts behind this comparison. They aren't nor were Imps ever human. If anything they should all be anomalies because they even have the compacity to love another person.

Helluva Boss has this really weird sense of morality that is never consistent. They can't decide if they want to follow Earth standards or their own made-up standards. Like Moxxie's and Millie's relationship was considered taboo for the majority of season 1 because of how much they loved for each other. But now well....almost every relationship in this show is like that.

This is why so many people say you could make Helluva Boss take place on Earth because very little changes would have to be made to make it fit in that setting.

Or Crimson could have been different when they first met and he gradually changed over the years. Or he might have manipulated her - we see in the show that like any good psychopath he can affect a charming facade when he wants to. Either way she might have stayed with him out of love or hoping to "fix him".

Apparently the people behind this show can't seem to understand that you don't stay the same as you were ten years ago. People change over time.

People believe that Stella was already this screaming, violent person to Stolas this entire time, but it makes more sense for this to have been a slow change over time for the 17+ years she's been married.

 

[AnOminous]

I'm convinced the only reason Alastor is ace is because if he had any sexual interests, people would rightfully point out that he at least partly killed for sexual pleasure (as most serial killers do when they claim a victim, be it overt like Gacy or Bundy, or more subtle reasonings) and Viv can't have Alastor actually turn out to be evil.

Having him be presented as this mysterious badass and then getting cucked and having his ass kicked the moment there was any actual fight is maybe the most retarded thing Vivz has done. Also the asexual thing is dumb if you're trying to absolve him of being a sex pervert, because serial killers who only get off from killing have a warped sexuality that is mutated into violence from some crossed wires in the brain.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Also the asexual thing is dumb if you're trying to absolve him of being a sex pervert, because serial killers who only get off from killing have a warped sexuality that is mutated into violence from some crossed wires in the brain.

"Yes, he was a mass-murdering psychopath, but he WASN'T a rapist. You like him, right?"

 

[The tired cat]

-vivzie likes mafia suits so moxie's clone I MEAN dad is an evil mob boss regardless if it makes no sense

I mean, mafia suits are indeed stylish. So cannot fault that logic. Still, wish Crimson did look like his beta version that was shown one time, that kinda fit more of powerful mobster vibe.

 

[Second Missing Primarch]

When you put it like that it makes wanting to be creative in the modern age feel like a lost cause.

I'm sorry I gave you that impression. I certainly don't think it is. I think wanting to be creative in this day and age is more crucial than ever. It's true that we're living in an age of creative sterility where media companies are vomiting out live-action remakes and annual COD sequels and so many writers, animators, and others are just iterating slightly on whatever the flavor of the month is in their circles (I want to scream every time I read a book description and it just starts with a list of popular tropes), but that's why it's so important to strive for creativity.

Remember that Faulkner saying I posted? You can use experience, observation, and imagination. You probably won't ever fight in a trench war or look after your dead friend's mother, but that doesn't mean you can't use your own experiences to fuel your creativity, or to study the experiences of those who did those things and try to put yourself in their shoes. Think about the places and people you've encountered. Go sit in a park and people-watch. Talk to people who have done or seen the things you want to write or paint or draw. Take up a new hobby. Go overseas for a bit, if you can, or just travel to a different part of your own country, someplace you've never been before.

And, most of all, if you want to tell a good story, read. Great authors read books like other people drink water. C.S. Lewis had hundreds of books in his personal library. Hemingway had almost 9,000. Tolkien's library was so extensive that there is now a book dedicated solely to collating all the volumes he owned, borrowed, or otherwise used for his own writing. Frank Herbert read over 200 books as background research for Dune. People like Mary Shelley, H.P Lovecraft, and Joseph Conrad grew up surrounded by books and parental figures who encouraged them to read and write, and they never stopped doing either until they died. If you want to be a better storyteller, you have to be a reader. I can guarantee you that Vivzie's work would be a hundred times better if she just picked up a copy of The Screwtape Letters or The Divine Comedy or any of the early church fathers' writings on demonology and applied what she read in there to her own work. Hell, some true crime books on the psychology of criminals and serial killers would do wonders for her portrayal of those characters.

 

[The Nothingness]

Okay so what I dont understand is Moxxie saying his dad didn't have to be like that. NIGGA WHAT?!? YOU'RE IN HELL!! HES A DEMON YOU'RE A DEMON!! YOU EXPECT YOUR FATHER BORN FROM (where ever the hell Imps originally came from.) TO BE A NICE GUY!? ARE YOU A RETARD?

I honestly dont get the thoughts behind this comparison. They aren't nor were Imps ever human. If anything they should all be anomalies because they even have the compacity to love another person.

Helluva Boss has this really weird sense of morality that is never consistent. They can't decide if they want to follow Earth standards or their own made-up standards. Like Moxxie's and Millie's relationship was considered taboo for the majority of season 1 because of how much they loved for each other. But now well....almost every relationship in this show is like that.

This is why so many people say you could make Helluva Boss take place on Earth because very little changes would have to be made to make it fit in that setting.

For such a "progressive" show, it sure likes using the traditional concept of a monogamous pairing. Why not have characters be in multiple relationships at once and have it not be an issue? Why can't Loona date Vortex as he also dates Beelzebub? The Loo Loo Land episode seemed to imply Stella was more pissed that Stolas slept with the help than having a extramarital affair. Crimson had no problems trying to force his son into another marriage even though he is already married (I don't recall Crimson saying the marriage with Millie would be null and void).

What we have is another missed opportunity added to the evergrowing list of missed opportunities.

 

[SpiderBitch]

For such a "progressive" show, it sure likes using the traditional concept of a monogamous pairing. Why not have characters be in multiple relationships at once and have not be an issue? Why can't Loona date Vortex as he also dates Beelzebub? The Loo Loo Land episode seemed to imply Stella was more pissed that Stolas slept with the help than having a extramarital affair. Crimson had no problems trying to force his son into another marriage even though he is already married (I don't recall him saying the marriage with Millie would be null and void).

What we have is another missed opportunity added to the evergrowing list of missed opportunities.

Polyphobe vivzie arc incoming?

Funnily enough ive seen a shitton of zoomers shitting on polygamy lately.
Including doing stuff like saying 'you look polyarmorous' to fat dangerhairs.
Even a lot of the generally woke ones are in on it, its like their one sexuality-phobia free pass (besides the dirty hets ofc)