Katholic Kiwi Kathedral (Catholicism General) - It's a place for Catholic Kiwis to discuss Catholicism and inquirers to inquire.

[des Pudels Kern]

Dude at a restaurant was talking to me about his failed marriage and I was giving my take from the religious POV. Dude said Jesus wasn't real and was invented by Constantine, so I just said Jesus was the most attested to guy in the ancient world and then he started threatening me. "Say Jesus again and I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you." So I just went full autism and started saying Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life until he left. I was all full of adrenaline because I was sure bro was gonna just fuck me up.

Pray for that guy.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

Dude at a restaurant was talking to me about his failed marriage and I was giving my take from the religious POV. Dude said Jesus wasn't real and was invented by Constantine, so I just said Jesus was the most attested to guy in the ancient world and then he started threatening me. "Say Jesus again and I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you." So I just went full autism and started saying Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life until he left. I was all full of adrenaline because I was sure bro was gonna just fuck me up.

Pray for that guy.

Did he wear lavender?

 

[Chemo]

>Pope Leo XIV followed Chad Pecknold, co-founder of the Postliberal Order blog.

https://t.me/CIG_telegram/59244

https://postliberalorder.com/

 

[A Very Big Fish]

Dude at a restaurant was talking to me about his failed marriage and I was giving my take from the religious POV. Dude said Jesus wasn't real and was invented by Constantine, so I just said Jesus was the most attested to guy in the ancient world and then he started threatening me. "Say Jesus again and I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you." So I just went full autism and started saying Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life until he left. I was all full of adrenaline because I was sure bro was gonna just fuck me up.

Pray for that guy.

The Constantine invented Christianity myth is bizarre. If you're just inventing things, why on Earth would he choose to deify a random Jewish carpenter from the back woods of Israel? People say it would give him some greater level of control over the masses, but how? He's already the emperor, and half the time in the Roman empire, the emperor was borderline divine in their life.

Of course there are other problems, like the fact that we were already something like 20+ popes in at that point, and its a bit hard to make laws like the Edict of Milan, granting toleration to Christianity if it a. Just started to exist, and b. was invented by Constantine, a man who effectively ruled the world, who was persecuting it? Also, I need to stress, the Edict of Milan granted Christians tolerance, it wasn't until Emperor Theodosius I and the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD that Christianity became the state religion of Rome.

And even if you just ignore all documentation prior to Constantine's life, was Eusebius just lying about literally everything? Was he a co-conspirator to Constantine? Was the tomb of the Holy Sepulcher planted by Constantine under a pagan temple? How did he even manage to do that?

The better conspiracy is that Constantine became Christian so that he could try and control the masses better, though of course, this still doesn't work, because at the time, Christianity was still a minority religion. It would be like if Trump converted to Baháʼí to try and exert more influence on Americans. It doesn't follow.

>Pope Leo XIV followed Chad Pecknold, co-founder of the Postliberal Order blog.

https://t.me/CIG_telegram/59244

https://postliberalorder.com/

I think I'd be too paranoid to post anything, anywhere if there was a chance that the pope would see it.

 

[Großmann]

The Constantine invented Christianity myth is bizarre. If you're just inventing things, why on Earth would he choose to deify a random Jewish carpenter from the back woods of Israel?

Yeah, but pastor Jim-Bob told me this in a sermon last week about the Whore of Babylon, which is the Roman Catholic Church led by ROBERT PREVOST (you won’t catch me calling any man “father” Matthew 23:9 KJV).

 

[Squid Diddler]

Dude at a restaurant was talking to me about his failed marriage and I was giving my take from the religious POV. Dude said Jesus wasn't real and was invented by Constantine, so I just said Jesus was the most attested to guy in the ancient world and then he started threatening me. "Say Jesus again and I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you." So I just went full autism and started saying Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life until he left. I was all full of adrenaline because I was sure bro was gonna just fuck me up.

Pray for that guy.

This is real proselytism, other Catholics take note, we need more of this, the prots have had a monopoly on autistically bearing witness in the face of an ass-beating for far too long

 

[Oligarca Caballero]

The better conspiracy is that Constantine became Christian so that he could try and control the masses better, though of course, this still doesn't work, because at the time, Christianity was still a minority religion

I mean, by this point a considerable part of his army was christian (Diocletian had to purge christians in the army, think about Saint Sebastian) so he did have a very clear political motivation to convert, especially because he had to consolidate power against 4 different pretenders at that time and christianity offered political unity against the decadent and fragmented paganism. Still, it was a big gamble specially given the fact that the senatorial elites were still largely pagan and opposed to christianity.

 

[self-diagnosed dumbass]

This is real proselytism, other Catholics take note, we need more of this, the prots have had a monopoly on autistically bearing witness in the face of an ass-beating for far too lon

At risk of starting shit, disagree. We should approach our fellow humans with far more compassion than what that kiwi described. Think of St. Therese de Liseux- when wronged by her fellow nuns, she went out of her way to be kinder and even more accomadating to them. If we see someone in pain and bring up Jesus and they say they don't believe, would it not bring them closer to Him to still be shown compassion, empathy, and love? I want others to be able to say: "See the Christian- they love their neighbor, even the unbeliever." Jesus would not autistically rile up someone who is already struggling. But He also wouldn't be on fucking kiwifarms so catch me throwing the first stone here.

 

[GeekUSA]

Has anyone here ever thought of attending or has have attended an Eastern/Non-Roman mass? I believe they're a good reminder that the Catholic Church is a universal institution that has many unique expressions of the faith, but all are united.

 

[des Pudels Kern]

If we see someone in pain and bring up Jesus and they say they don't believe, would it not bring them closer to Him to still be shown compassion, empathy, and love?

Feel free to disagree with my response. In that moment I wasn't sure what to do. I didn't want to let someone else take the Lord's name out of my mouth, and I did ask him to stop threatening me to which his responses were "say his name again" to which I obliged. I have a lot of room to grow and I fail more often than not so I see your response as constructive criticism. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Squid Diddler]

Feel free to disagree with my response. In that moment I wasn't sure what to do. I didn't want to let someone else take the Lord's name out of my mouth, and I did ask him to stop threatening me to which his responses were "say his name again" to which I obliged. I have a lot of room to grow and I fail more often than not so I see your response as constructive criticism. Thanks for the insight.

You did nothing wrong. In the face of hate, sometimes all we can do is continue to bear witness with courage. You did that.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

At risk of starting shit, disagree. We should approach our fellow humans with far more compassion than what that kiwi described.

I'd agree with this, but it is just not possible with some people.

Think of St. Therese de Liseux- when wronged by her fellow nuns, she went out of her way to be kinder and even more accomadating to them.

This is the reason why. Most people are nowhere near as Saintly and assuming other to be so, one must be one himself, but most who assume to be so, are just pansies larping as holier-than-thou out of sheer ignorance.

If we see someone in pain and bring up Jesus and they say they don't believe, would it not bring them closer to Him to still be shown compassion, empathy, and love?

No, because they literally do not care and if they're radical about it as the aforementioned guy possibly wearing a lavender shirt, they'll just get bigger mad and hate you and God the more if you act like a pansy whimp, passively pushing YOUR ideals on them as if you're so much less of a sinner than them.

I want others to be able to say: "See the Christian- they love their neighbor, even the unbeliever."

I want a lot of things too.

Jesus would not autistically rile up someone who is already struggling. But He also wouldn't be on fucking kiwifarms so catch me throwing the first stone here.

Exactly.

Here's a better advice. If you, due to some character flaw, are prone to getting angry (something I have) and you see that you cannot have a progressive conversation with some moron atheist, then the best thing for you to do is to politely walk away and not even think about it. Don't get dragged down by a dumbass and get shreked by XP, as the old saying goes.

 

[Chemo]

At risk of starting shit, disagree. We should approach our fellow humans with far more compassion than what that kiwi described. Think of St. Therese de Liseux- when wronged by her fellow nuns, she went out of her way to be kinder and even more accomadating to them

I'm not going to outright disagree with you here because you have scripture and tradition on your side, however, what I will say is I think discernment is required. The reason I say discernment is required is because compassion is something that evil people often attempt to weaponise against Christians. They appeal to and then shame you, using compassion and scripture as a stick to beat you with in order to manipulate you into conforming to their will. This is something that comes up often in debates about migration, for example. You have outright atheistic communists and neoliberals who abhor and are antagonistic to God trying to use compassion and scripture as a weapon. As a general personal rule, if I'm dealing with a Christian – or at least someone I'm convinced or believe to be a Christian – I'll engage in good faith and allow it into the conversation, but if you're not a Christian, then I'll be ruthlessly worldly in my approach if I suspect that articles of faith are being manipulated to further unjust or evil agendas.

>The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.
Luke 16:8

>Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:16

As for St Therese and her abundant charitable disposition. That's very commendable and certainly the ideal, but let's not delude ourselves here, that's not the only picture of a saint. St Peter was a lot of things, and one of those things was impulsive. Christ took what could be described as sometimes a sharp and another a blunt tone with Peter. Let's not forget he cut off a chap's ear in the garden of Gethsemane, but he's still a saint. Now, I'm not saying go around cutting off ears and noses like Dolph Lundgren in Universal Soldier, I'm just pointing out the fact that saints can be flawed. Peter had the temperament he had, and yet he was still called to serve Christ, and I'm sure there was a massive difference between the Peter in Gethsemane and the crucified Peter. Personally, for ease of communication with others, I call myself a Christian to save autistic explanations no one asked to hear, but in the privacy of my mind, I say I'm becoming a Christian because I think that reflects more accurately.

But He also wouldn't be on fucking kiwifarms so catch me throwing the first stone here.

I don't know about that, He was often accused of keeping poor company.

 

[Chemo]

Has anyone here ever thought of attending or has have attended an Eastern/Non-Roman mass? I believe they're a good reminder that the Catholic Church is a universal institution that has many unique expressions of the faith, but all are united.

Actually a bit of news on this.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2025-05/pope-leo-xiv-to-eastern-catholics-the-church-needs-you.html

 

[self-diagnosed dumbass]

You have outright atheistic communists and neoliberals who abhor and are antagonistic to God trying to use compassion and scripture as a weapon

looking for clarification here- how could compassion be used as a weapon?

(Also yes, I am a Catholic. I would say I fall on the more mystical side, as my favorite saints are St. Therese de Liseux, St. Theresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross- I really like the Carmelites.)

Truly the hardest part of being a Catholic is the call to love thy neighbor. I do truly believe that even my worst enemy deserves love and care, even if I get nothing in return. It's fucking HARD to believe that. I don't sometimes. A lot of times. The more one is wronged for showing love the more one must reach out to God for that which one has lost or is lacking. I don't know. St. John of the Cross says "Where there is no love, put love- there will grow love."
It's radical. It's foolish. People call me naive, stupid. I've never been happier.
It also calls one to let go of wordly attachments, however - (basing this off of the Dark Night of the Soul by St. JoC) to fully embrace what we have with Christ. I don't necessarily mean give up everything one owns and join a convent or live on the street, but to let go of the attachment you have to posessions and the fear of losing them?

I know I am going to regret posting this because it opens me up to a lot of ridicule from strangers (and also for not taking the time to explain it as well as I would like- but then I never would) but I've spent a lot of time discerning the cloistered Carmelite life and I feel compelled to share what following Christ means to me when seeing fellow Christians facing the same fear and uncertainty in this world. Love is the only solution.

 

[des Pudels Kern]

I've spent a lot of time discerning the cloistered Carmelite life

God bless you for that! I wish I had the balls to discern anything. I converted a little old and set in my ways. Pray for me I'll pray for you.

 

[Chemo]

looking for clarification here- how could compassion be used as a weapon?

It was already in my post, in controversial and contentious topics like migration, we have certain people trying to quote scripture, something they make little secret of despising but love to trot out if it can be used as a manipulative tactical advantage. So, let's keep it controversial and contentious and use migration/asylum/refugees as the context.
>Love thy neighbour.
I'm a bit rusty on this stuff because I barely scrape the minimum requirements to be considered Catholic, but my understanding is that the Catholic definition of love defined by Aquinas is to will the good of the other. Now, with that in mind. You're commanded to love your neighbour as yourself, that is, to will the good of your neighbour as you do for yourself. So, suppose you're supporting an open- or very lax-border policy. The result of this policy is your next-door neighbour's just married son and spouse can't afford a home because demand is way outstripping the supply. The neighbour to your left can't get a job despite being a graduate, this time because supply outstrips demand. The neighbour across the road, his son isn't a graduate but is working in an Amazon warehouse for poxy wages that can't be negotiated because that requires a monopoly on labour to leverage improved wages and working conditions, but an endless stream of migrants shatters that monopoly to negotiate and improve workers' lot in life. Not only that, but he's a minority in the warehouse who speaks English, and he's surrounded by foreigners constantly talking in a foreign language, and that makes him feel alienated in his own country. Every one of them is suffering a cost of living crisis. Remember, Aquinas defined love as willing the good of another. Is supporting an open – or lax – border policy resulting in good for your neighbours, or is it adversely affecting them? Is having an oversimplified and misguided compassion for the stranger impeding the command to love – will the good of – your neighbour?

Christianity is a sacrificial religion. If you want to make personal sacrifices then GREAT, however, it's crucial that it be YOU that makes the sacrifice. Where some Christians can run into problems is supporting things that impose sacrifices on others they didn't agree to using their own free will. As for the mysticism, I'm of the view Catholicism is intrinsically mystical. What's more mystical than the transubstantiation of the Eucharist into Christ's body? What's more mystical than baptism washing away your sins and initiating you into Christ's Church? What's more mystical than Christ hearing your confession and forgiving your sins? Mass is intrinsically mystical.

 

[Local Farmer]

I'm a bit rusty on this stuff because I barely scrape the minimum requirements to be considered Catholic, but my understanding is that the Catholic definition of love defined by Aquinas is to will the good of the other. Now, with that in mind. You're commanded to love your neighbour as yourself, that is, to will the good of your neighbour as you do for yourself. So, suppose you're supporting an open- or very lax-border policy. The result of this policy is your next-door neighbour's just married son and spouse can't afford a home because demand is way outstripping the supply. The neighbour to your left can't get a job despite being a graduate, this time because supply outstrips demand. The neighbour across the road, his son isn't a graduate but is working in an Amazon warehouse for poxy wages that can't be negotiated because that requires a monopoly on labour to leverage improved wages and working conditions, but an endless stream of migrants shatters that monopoly to negotiate and improve workers' lot in life. Not only that, but he's a minority in the warehouse who speaks English, and he's surrounded by foreigners constantly talking in a foreign language, and that makes him feel alienated in his own country. Every one of them is suffering a cost of living crisis. Remember, Aquinas defined love as willing the good of another. Is supporting an open – or lax – border policy resulting in good for your neighbours, or is it adversely affecting them? Is having an oversimplified and misguided compassion for the stranger impeding the command to love – will the good of – your neighbour?

I feel the need to clarify myself since I’m not sure if you are referring to me since I have quoted scripture to some of the people who come in and shit up this thread. My point isn’t that I believe we should allow in 1 trillion immigrants to the point where it’s unsustainable, but I also don’t necessarily believe that we shouldn’t treat this as a humanely as possible. There has to be some sort of balance between “trade racists for refugees” and “Total Immigrant death”

There is a common criticism that gets constantly repeated on this thread in which users will blame almost all of the immigration on Catholic/Christian charities instead of the governments who have the actual power to end this problem and blame either Catholicism or Christianity as a whole for treating this issue with Charity. Governments are allowed to serve in the interest of their people, but the Church, by definition, has to serve everyone. I don’t necessarily blame the people who do work in those charities because they are doing nothing wrong within the eyes of scripture, the tertiary effects are not their fault either due to a 4 year long lax border policy in the US. I believe that deportation is something that is absolutely justified but I think it’s important to stress that we should treat them with Human Dignity that Christ calls for us.

 

[Chemo]

I feel the need to clarify myself since I’m not sure if you are referring to me

I'm not, I'm speaking of the internet in general and not people in this thread or on this site as a whole.

There has to be some sort of balance between

Mate, the time for balance was decades ago. There's people in the West insisting the Titanic has already hit the iceberg and lifeboats are in short supply. Suppose the West becomes just like Rio, Kabul, Lagos, what then? Where go? Anyway, I'm not one of those people who believes the Titanic is sinking, the problem was created by policy and it can be reversed by policy.

There is a common criticism that gets constantly repeated on this thread in which users will blame almost all of the immigration on Catholic/Christian charities

Well, they're partially right. I suffered this recently with the Jesuits where I am accepting USAID money to facilitate human trafficking on an industrial scale into my country and I had to put my knuckles out there to be wrapped for it. The Church shouldn't be involved in such skulduggery and its a shameful sacrilege of Christ's Church. The U.S. - and E.U - is guilty of funding it but Christian charities shouldn't be taking the money but because they did they share culpability.

Look, the problem is one of PERVERSION. Since we're on the topic of love and what it means. Understanding what it means to love someone is to will their good, well, what is good? God is the highest good. Being married is good. Having children is good. Having friends is good. All these boxes can be ticked right where people are and yet that's not enough for them. When they come to the West what do they really want? They want houses they can't afford. They want S.U.V's they can't afford. They want a social life they can't afford. They want easy access to abundant sex. It's pure obscene materialism and that is proven to more often that not draw people away from God. How is that willing the good for these people? Nowhere in scripture does it say I have to invite the world into my home and provide them with permanent housing, healthcare, education, etc and especially not in a way that deprives my neighbours. The scriptures are being perverted for nefarious reasons. Read about any famous Catholic saint and they nearly always lived austere lifestyles. An austere lifestyle is good enough for the saints but apparently its not good enough for the rest of the world. Catholics seriously need to sort ourselves out and be consistent.

 

[Squid Diddler]

looking for clarification here- how could compassion be used as a weapon?

(Also yes, I am a Catholic. I would say I fall on the more mystical side, as my favorite saints are St. Therese de Liseux, St. Theresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross- I really like the Carmelites.)

Truly the hardest part of being a Catholic is the call to love thy neighbor. I do truly believe that even my worst enemy deserves love and care, even if I get nothing in return. It's fucking HARD to believe that. I don't sometimes. A lot of times. The more one is wronged for showing love the more one must reach out to God for that which one has lost or is lacking. I don't know. St. John of the Cross says "Where there is no love, put love- there will grow love."
It's radical. It's foolish. People call me naive, stupid. I've never been happier.
It also calls one to let go of wordly attachments, however - (basing this off of the Dark Night of the Soul by St. JoC) to fully embrace what we have with Christ. I don't necessarily mean give up everything one owns and join a convent or live on the street, but to let go of the attachment you have to posessions and the fear of losing them?

I get what you're saying, love everyone, see them as humans worthy of compassion, treat them as you would have them treat you, etc. But sometimes there are greater goods at stake. Let me pose a hypothetical- if you have a family that depends on you with young children, do you show compassion to the homeless crack addict by taking them into your home? No of course not. Similarly, do you let policies get passed that let dangerous criminals with no respoect for you, your country, your family, or your beleifs move into your neighborhood where they will have free reign because that is the "nice" thing to do? This sort of thing has been posed as "suicidal empathy." Does God command us to love others to our own death? Yes this could be argued. What about the death of our families, cultures, neighbors, and society? That I don't see.

There has to be some sort of balance between “trade racists for refugees” and “Total Immigrant death”

No honest Catholic should be saying "total immigrant death" aside from memery. It's more, "not our circus" at worst.