Listened to the episode...
It's weird how anything anyone on Kiwi Farms does becomes what "Kiwi Farms, a website" does. Someone posting Fuentes' home address on Twitter isn't Twitter doxing Fuentes, it is someone on Twitter doxing Fuentes... But if it is on the Kiwi Farms then suddenly it IS the website that did it as a whole. This is such a common thing and it is absurd to me. Kiwi Farms is still small compared to Twitter or Instagram but it is large enough where it isn't a singular monolith, there are disagreements and different factions on the site that fucking HATE each other.
Excerpts and musings about them
Here, Herzog mentions a seeming bias against leftwing figures while rightwing ones are given a pass. I somewhat agree there is a bit of a imbalance here but it's, in my opinion, moreso the fact that lefties are easier to make fun of and share embarrassing shit openly for no discernible reason. Also a lot of the rightwing figures she mentions are below the Farms paygrade (how many Twitter accounts get entire threads?) or just are not as funny independently. Though here I think Herzog and Singal are just unfamiliar with the site and the fact that Ben Shapiro, Ethan Ralph, America First and its notable members, Sargon of Akkad, WhatIfAltHist, Rev says desu, and many others who are at least aligned with the rightwing side of the culture war if not outright conservative personalities entirely. There is an imbalance, I don't disagree there, but I'd argue it is overstated AND largely because the medium-large creators for the last 10 years have largely been leftwing fuckers that are too online to just ignore that the "mean kys forum" is talking about them.
Here, Singal is remarking about how when LFJ first appeared there was disagreement over if they're worth looking into or not and that "Kiwi Farms" was divided on that. But then that "they" did dox LFJ. Now... Look. How the fuck did someone get LFJ's birth certificate? You do get into victim blaming allegations but what makes a birth certificate just publicly available where only a day later someone just posts it? At some point it's "you put yourself out there and someone noticed you and your sloppy security is to blame for them obtaining this breadth of information."
Singal does note that the thread broadly ignored this doxing and moved on. There wasn't interest in this dox at the time.
This clip cuts out Herzog reading
Moon's post. I've indicated where I cut from one part to another with a 00s sitcom whoosh sound.
They're reading this post in the second half. Singal and Herzog both agree that the included link is likely to be the one with LFJ's information... But fail to notice (and I chalk this up to being unfamiliar with the site or forums overall) that it's just a page link and not a post link. Imagine if I sent YouTube an email like this and just linked to the account posting vids instead of a specific video with a timestamp saying "right here, this is where it is". Not likely they'll take action on it, right? I also think it is notable to mention that LFJ went right for the AUP/TOS attempt instead of requesting they alert the website operator to remove the content but that's reading malice into things. It could, although likely, just be that LFJ just wanted that post of their information taken down but I think they're trying to cloak and dagger this shit due to how they went about it. Makes no sense to link to a page and not even indicate where on the page it happens so a moderator or CS rep can quickly find the post in question.
Singal is too willing to be charitable to LFJ to me. I think it's partly because he's not well versed in this manner of attack and is used to the "25 year olds try to remove something via change dot org petition" method instead of this more civilised and insidious method where they try to rulebook and be "professional" about things. Could be me being too charitable to Singal but I do strongly feel that is the case here.
Herzog meanwhile does dig a bit deeper but ultimately misses the mark. You can see Jesse come around a bit here which immediately follows the last audio clip.
But he's still being charitable to LFJ, he just concedes in a "maybe that is the case" way.
Following on, Singal says this:
Which I think is a byproduct of his initial read on the topic clouding his judgement. Is it that "Kiwi Farms, a website" is convinced that she's in with TransLifeLine or that LFJ is doing this for TransLifeLine? They don't have to be working together in direct meetings for LFJ to want to step in and defend them. LFJ can just decide "I must defend this charity for my heckin' trans comrade folx!" without any communication with Greta or that other fucker.
Jesse DOES go on to say he can see that communication happening but that there isn't evidence of it that he has seen. Which I believe is true. We don't know of any marching orders or direct "yeah try and take them down with your Google email Liz!" messages.
They then move to the consent accident claim.
Kiwi Bros... Look... I broadly agree with their takes on each side increasing the stakes and never just letting things be and that the "consent accident" stuff is overblown and repeated too much for how little is there. LFJ's retelling with doghair isn't a compelling or convincing story but there just isn't anything beyond it that has any substance to it. There is that other story from someone but none of it is enough to know much of anything since no one has told a full and complete story, end to end. If anything LFJ makes this worse for themselves by fighting against it so viciously instead of letting it be forgotten. This is only a problem because LFJ is less than candid about what happened and tries to constantly hide the bits and pieces they did share. If they hadn't deleted their posts then this would be a lot of noise over nothing but because they're trying to hide things it makes them appear guilty. It is also LFJ's fault because "consent accident" is so vague it could mean anything up to and including rape. They can't blame misreadings of this on some "media literacy" shit because they used some fucked phrase created by and for retard degens that could mean rape.
Singal and Herzog then remark about Flow Chemical and basically agree the case is bad, Australia has shit Internet laws, and other things. Nothing to note here aside from Singal loving Section 230. Singal does misunderstand what Flow Chemical did but I mean... Look you have to accept some flaws and this is going to be one of them: most people are not aware of how the Internet works. It also isn't too instrumental here that this aspect be correct, in my opinion. Now in other articles that debate the existence of the site and go into what Internet hosts "should" do... THEN it really fucking matters to get this right.
Herzog does remark that what happens with Patrick S. Tomlinson is beyond the pale, most of what Kiwi Farms does is fine but that's beyond what should be allowed to her. To that... I mean isn't most of that the O&A forums? I'm not well versed on the Tomlinson stuff so maybe I'm wrong but the main people doing it seem to openly brag over there and then KF is just documenting that site over here. Also misses the whole "Tomlinson... If you stopped reacting to every god damn fucking post then it would at least lessen how much happens to you" idea.
They then talk about how Mailfrawd is a retard, had bad infosec and opsec... Touched the god damn cow in what I'd call an attempt at "soft" life ruination and is being swept for by people when they really did go beyond what is acceptable.
That's a wrap for me.
