Greer v. Moon, No. 20-cv-00647 (D. Utah Sep. 16, 2020)

[lolwatagain]

Can't he just add more witnesses though, as long as he follows all those pesky rules about disclosure while doing so?
I'm no lawyer, but I read the "stipulation" more as "We'll consider the matter of the family witnesses closed", than "No more witnesses ever".

Not that Greer is ever going to properly name, disclose, depose, and call a witness, but still.

If we held Rusty to the standards of every other party, which should be the case for a pro-se plaintiff in disclosures, then he should be excluded from calling himself or Null as witnesses at trial. You're required to amend your disclosures as you learn additional information in discovery, but at this point Rusty should know if he or Null would have information that would require either of them being called as a witness in this case. He has no reason to not include either himself or Null on his witness list, and what each would testify about.

And Null would actually be prejudiced if Rusty is allowed to testify at trial, because the stipulation prevents Rusty from being deposed. But at this point the definition of "liberally construed" has been stretched so thin by these courts, I almost think they would justify it by saying that he used the letter "i" in his disclosures, so he clearly meant to disclose himself as a witness.

 

[reptile baht spaniard rid]

I’d pay any amount of money to hear the phone call between Russel and his dad, the sounds of his slobbering begging and pleading into the phone, but dad I neeeeeed you, oh and you have to hire a lawyer too for this bullshit case you want no part of.

There has to be an elaborate German word for the feeling you feel when “you get a call from a lawyer about another suit against your retard son but then realize he’s the one who brought the suit and got you involved.”

Germans have very specific words.

 

[Kosher Dill]

If we held Rusty to the standards of every other party, which should be the case for a pro-se plaintiff in disclosures, then he should be excluded from calling himself or Null as witnesses at trial. You're required to amend your disclosures as you learn additional information in discovery, but at this point Rusty should know if he or Null would have information that would require either of them being called as a witness in this case.

I see, so the point of all this is that (at least for a normal case), every witness has to be either someone on your initially provided list, or someone you genuinely didn't know you'd need to call until you got discovery information from those initial people? That clears up a number of questions I had about this whole thing.

Thanks everyone for explaining this.

 

[reptile baht spaniard rid]

There can sometimes be a bit of a loop where the guys you listed mean defense wants to call someone else, which makes you realize you need someone else, etc. the whole point of lawyers and shit and the conferences is that these aren’t adversarial - you’re both trying to work out the facts as best you can, and how your interpretation of them is the best one.

People are too addicted to courtroom dramas and Phoenix Wright and shit. They should sit in on a basic bitch jury trial (not a publicized shitshow) sometime.

 

[StinkySnack]

There has to be an elaborate German word for the feeling you feel when “you get a call from a lawyer about another suit against your retard son but then realize he’s the one who brought the suit and got you involved.”

Germans have very specific words.

I’m pretty sure the standard “dummkopf” is sufficient.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

His shameless "I'm just a caveman pro se litigant" thing is beyond dumb now. OK, he's not a lawyer. But he completed a paralegal degree/certificate years ago. He's worked in a law office. Not every state requires law school to become a lawyer. He's had years of at least self-apprenticing (oxymoron, but you know what I mean). He's researched more caselaw, interacted with more courts, and litigated more than most lawyers in their first couple of years - who would be held fully accountable. Even if they, too, were dumb as a post.

His fuckups are due to being a stubborn mule and getting in his feelings, and general life-ineptitude, more than his ability to perform legal research or the form of his filings. Yeah, he styles things wrong and does not claims not to understand evidence or (apparently) process, but it's as much he refuses to accept the rules as it is failing to understand them or being especially at any disadvantage as a non-lawyer, given the Court's generosity of interpretation and technical points alike. If he were a lawyer he'd be behaving the same way, guaranteed.

And I love his new "Hardin has it so good bc he is self employed and so it's fair I waste his time," whereas I (newly*) have a JOB, excuse you, and my willingly checking my email during work time and getting flustered bc someone emailed me about this thing I caused them to be involved with is their fault."

*"Also now I am delayed bc this stupid lawsuit that I brought and Hardin WON'T LET ME WIN, WHICH IS SO SNEAKY isn't my whole JOB like it is Hardin's, so even though I've delayed for months and years for various reasons when I didn't have a job, now my excuse for delay is that I do, and it is really rude of Hardin, who by the way is forcing me to continue suing his client and arguing about things that are already dismissed, not to respect that."

And the whole "omg he contacted witnesses" is so blatantly wrong, it's clear he is just lying.

 

[a hapless toad]

I’m pretty sure the standard “dummkopf” is sufficient.

Or fremdschämen.

 

[Swole McPole]

Can confirm. We were told what discovery entails, what disclosures were and how to answer them. However, it's been years since he was in school and it took him five years to complete a two year degree. He also hasn't worked in the field in years. I know I've forgotten a lot about what I learned in school since I haven't used it.

But the first thing they teach you on any course once you've finished high school is how to research your subject when you don't know something. It's inconceivable that they wouldn't point him at the place where he could pick up the rules of civil procedure for any given court. And if that's beyond his intellectual capacity, then he's a retard and they had no business allowing him to pass the course.

 

[Accept Only Substitutes]

But the first thing they teach you on any course once you've finished high school is how to research your subject when you don't know something. It's inconceivable that they wouldn't point him at the place where he could pick up the rules of civil procedure for any given court. And if that's beyond his intellectual capacity, then he's a retard and they had no business allowing him to pass the course.

I had an entire class focused just on legal research and how to use that research in memos to the lawyer you work for/legal briefs.

 

[Sexy Senior Citizen]

Hardin WON'T LET ME WIN

That will never not be funny to me. He genuinely thinks Null shouldn't be allowed to fight back, let alone win, because Null is a meanie and Russell has plights.

 

[I Shidded I Farded I Came]

And I love his new "Hardin has it so good bc he is self employed and so it's fair I waste his time," whereas I (newly*) have a JOB, excuse you, and my willingly checking my email during work time and getting flustered bc someone emailed me about this thing I caused them to be involved with is their fault."

Yeah the whining about Hardin having time to do his job (because Josh pays him) is pretty wild. Entirely on brand for Russ though.

 

[Nick G]

And Null would actually be prejudiced if Rusty is allowed to testify at trial, because the stipulation prevents Rusty from being deposed.

This is the key point. Say that this case goes to trial with no subsequent developments related to witnesses, and Greer says 'I changed my mind' or 'I didn't understand what I agreed to' and attempts to testify himself. He will be prevented from testifying, not simply because he previously said he wouldn't in the stipulation, but because Defendants sacrificed their right to depose Russel on the basis of this representation.

The 2nd point in the stipulation makes it clear that Defendants are giving up their right to depose Greer solely based upon Greer's representation that there will be no testimony.

2. No other witness has been disclosed by Plaintiff, and Plaintiff does not intend to call any other witness at trial as part of his case in chief. Therefore, the subpoena issued to Russell Greer is withdrawn.

I believe the purpose of the 3rd point is to strengthen the 2nd, by explicitly stating that if Russel changes his mind, the stipulation cannot be used to argue Defendants forfeited their right to depose Russel.

3. If Plaintiff attempts to disclose any additional witness, or to call any witness other than Nathan Greer and Scott Greer at trial, or to offer any testimony by any other individual than Nathan Greer and Scott Greer in support of any claim at issue in this case, this stipulation shall be null and void and have no further effect.

Putting this together, if Greer tries testify at trial, Harden has a clear cut argument that Defendants were prejudiced in a way that cannot be remedied except from the exclusion of Russel's testimony. That is a significantly stronger argument than simply claiming "Russel agreed he wasn't going to testify earlier."

 

[Bogliacci]

Yeah the whining about Hardin having time to do his job (because Josh pays him) is pretty wild. Entirely on brand for Russ though.

Love how he says "I can't meet with hardin at those times I have work, I told him that!!!" and in his exhibit it's literally a single line of "I have work." and he never brings up a time that'd work or anything.

 

[Dizzyuntildeath]

There has to be an elaborate German word for the feeling you feel when “you get a call from a lawyer about another suit against your retard son but then realize he’s the one who brought the suit and got you involved.”

Germans have very specific words.

Ingratefaggenhiemer.

 

[Magnificent Penis]

only reason his case would be thrown out is it seperated from kiwifaarm stigma explain the whole lawyer process of the case.

in total this case is worth its time & weight being made into a book.

Hardin tried numerous times to bring up the fact that Russ is a trained paralegal and all these supposed "I didn't know any better" excuses are bullshit, but every time, the court goes :^) and completely ignores it. It's frustrating, but it is what it is.

 

[Apteryx Owenii]

Hardin tried numerous times to bring up the fact that Russ is a trained paralegal and all these supposed "I didn't know any better" excuses are bullshit, but every time, the court goes :^) and completely ignores it. It's frustrating, but it is what it is.

as soon as the court heard Russ talk during the hearing it knew exactly how much weight to give the fact that he's a "trained paralegal"

 

[Sexy Senior Citizen]

I think this case will end with Russ losing. Note my choice of words: Russ will lose, but Kiwi Farms will likely not win because Null is a meanie who says the gamer word. I don't think Russell will be sanctioned. I don't think the case will be dismissed with prejudice. I do think the ruling will be along the lines of, "Russell, you are an absolute retard. Come back with arguments that are less retarded or an actual lawyer and I'll let you try again."

 

[TheOtherSideofMakeBelieve]

He's a complete dunce and it's pretty clear he bullshitted his way through paralegal school somehow. No self respecting person would write the way he does in his filings in a draft for an assessment. Hell, I would be embarrassed if I wrote an email to a professor in that way.

It took him five years to complete a two year program (I'm sure it's just because he had to go on his mission, of course). Imagine having to deal with Russell for 3+ years longer than you should have been forced to, they were basically in the same position as Null, just they were being paid to deal with him rather than having to spend money to deal with the nuisance. If all it took to make Russell go away was to bump up his grade a couple (dozen) points wouldn't you do it?

There has to be an elaborate German word for the feeling you feel when “you get a call from a lawyer about another suit against your retard son but then realize he’s the one who brought the suit and got you involved.”

Germans have very specific words.

I threw this into google translate just to see what it would spit out and, given the current state of the american educational system under No Child Left Behind, it actually returned a phrase that I found to be quite beautiful and poignant. It translated retard as zurückgebliebenen which, when translated back into english, comes out as those left behind

 

[Bill Evans 45]

my willingly checking my email during work time

"I can't meet with hardin at those times I have work, I told him that!!!"

It would be interesting to cross reference his social media posts against the times Hardin proposed and his alleged work hours.

 

[Kiwi Lime Pie]

I think it was Nippleless Woman that went to the same diploma mill as Rusty. She pointed out that they didn't really teach you anything, and that she had to relearn everything while on the job. Something Rusty never took into account.

This sounds similar to my recollection: What she learned was either insufficient or incorrect and she found this out during her first job on the field where she effectively had to unlearn stuff to do it the right way.

Love how he says "I can't meet with hardin at those times I have work, I told him that!!!" and in his exhibit it's literally a single line of "I have work." and he never brings up a time that'd work or anything.

It also shows much of a control freak he is. Any reasonable person would say, "Date 1 at that time doesn't work. How about date 2 at this time?" and work something out. Negotiation and deals are not in RG's legal vocabulary. The only outcome he wants is the one that makes him feel the best and gives him most control over someone else.