Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Mystery Spy]

the thought process of these DEI retards is genuinely alien to me

It‘a actually easy, really. They are incapable of empathy or thinking about anyone that isn’t themselves, or getting asspats from their clique.

Woketardards love to create echochambers, and exclude anyone that dare to disagree with them. In Reddit they ban you, and in a job, they will fire you and black list you. Once you censor any dissenting voice, it’s easy to delude yourself that everyone thinks just like you.

It’s always so satisfying when reality hits them, and turns out their cult is in fact a minority.

 

[Overly Serious]

Is MCU dialogue that bad these days?
Asking after seeing this video, If Batman Had Marvel Dialogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrHpmha05EE

https://preservetube.com/watch?v=DrHpmha05EE

That video is just a weird misfire to me. Marvel writing is plagued with an excess of bathos and melodrama but I don't recognize anything in that video as being an accurate parody of it. They're just doing bad writing but it's not bad in the same way that MCU writing is bad.

 

[Nick Obre]

That video is just a weird misfire to me. Marvel writing is plagued with an excess of bathos and melodrama but I don't recognize anything in that video as being an accurate parody of it. They're just doing bad writing but it's not bad in the same way that MCU writing is bad.

Yeah, a lot of what people call "Marvel humor" really isn't in the Marvel movies. I don't even know where that kind of humor is from, outside of things that are explicitly comedic.

 

[Overly Serious]

Yeah, a lot of what people call "Marvel humor" really isn't in the Marvel movies. I don't even know where that kind of humor is from, outside of things that are explicitly comedic.

I think it's just bad humour. Just because you mock something you think is bad, doesn't mean your mockery is actually funny, either. In fact that applies to so much "comedy" today from SNL to Rick and Morty that I should probably take a deeper look at it sometime. They're just doing what they think is bad dialogue and unable to distinguish between that and other bad dialogue. And the MCU dialogue isn't actually that bad usually, it's just very one note.

 

[dick brain]

Yeah, a lot of what people call "Marvel humor" really isn't in the Marvel movies. I don't even know where that kind of humor is from, outside of things that are explicitly comedic.

I think it's just bad humour. Just because you mock something you think is bad, doesn't mean your mockery is actually funny, either. In fact that applies to so much "comedy" today from SNL to Rick and Morty that I should probably take a deeper look at it sometime. They're just doing what they think is bad dialogue and unable to distinguish between that and other bad dialogue. And the MCU dialogue isn't actually that bad usually, it's just very one note.

I distinctly remember rewatching FFH and NWH and thinking "oh, this is where the meme comes from". But I couldn't point to any specific examples. Which I think is the point: quips that are forgettable because they're meaningless and add nothing.

Alternatively, I've noticed that even good Marvel stuff tends to compulsively insert comedy into serious, high-stakes scenes or interpersonal drama. It almost feels like they're mandated to have a joke every 90 seconds, and it reminds me of people who use humor as a coping mechanism to keep themselves from really engaging with their emotions. And it often comes in the form of interjected dialogue that really doesn't need to be there. So maybe that's what people are referencing.

 

[Nick Obre]

Alternatively, I've noticed that even good Marvel stuff tends to compulsively insert comedy into serious, high-stakes scenes or interpersonal drama. It almost feels like they're mandated to have a joke every 90 seconds,

That, and not the other thing, is a valid criticism that Marvel gets all the time. There's that Whedon quote about "make it painful, make it dark, but then tell a joke". And it works, but not if you abuse it, or indeed put it everywhere.

and it reminds me of people who use humor as a coping mechanism to keep themselves from really engaging with their emotions. And it often comes in the form of interjected dialogue that really doesn't need to be there. So maybe that's what people are referencing.

And that's kind of the thing, it's appropriate for some characters. Stark is the one with that exact character trait. He's not the only one, but not everyone should be doing it.
It's like Thor, his humor should come from the fish out of water thing, or Cap from his overly earnest and old-fashioned nature. When they start doing it, it becomes a gimmick. And by now the gimmick is everywhere.

 

[dick brain]

That, and not the other thing, is a valid criticism that Marvel gets all the time. There's that Whedon quote about "make it painful, make it dark, but then tell a joke". And it works, but not if you abuse it, or indeed put it everywhere.


And that's kind of the thing, it's appropriate for some characters. Stark is the one with that exact character trait. He's not the only one, but not everyone should be doing it.
It's like Thor, his humor should come from the fish out of water thing, or Cap from his overly earnest and old-fashioned nature. When they start doing it, it becomes a gimmick. And by now the gimmick is everywhere.

I kind of disagree that it works. Or at the very least it sacrifices emotional depth for the sake of providing a feel-good experience and keeping asses in seats. It feels like in Harrison Bergeron where some people have to wear a hearing aid that interrupts their thoughts every 30 seconds with random noises to keep them from thinking too hard about anything, except in this case it's for feeling rather than thinking. I'm not asking for high art, but there's something inherently cowardly about not trusting your story to move your audience, or not trusting your audience to endure it or engage with or value the experience. My thoughts on it aren't fully formed, but I definitely think the movies are worse because of it.

I wonder if they just lifted the formula wholesale from Iron Man because it worked there without thinking about why it works for Stark as a character. Even as far back as the first Avengers, the roundtable scene with the "He's adopted" and "I understood that reference" lines feels pretty out of character and whiplashy given the context of the conversation.

 

[Quarterback Rex Grossman]

I think it's just bad humour. Just because you mock something you think is bad, doesn't mean your mockery is actually funny, either. In fact that applies to so much "comedy" today from SNL to Rick and Morty that I should probably take a deeper look at it sometime. They're just doing what they think is bad dialogue and unable to distinguish between that and other bad dialogue. And the MCU dialogue isn't actually that bad usually, it's just very one note.

I think a lot of Marvel's nonsense is more attitude and reactions then one-liners, like someone giving a dramatic speech only for a character to make a stupid joke in response: like in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 with that "welcome to the frickin guardians, only he didn't say frickin" line after the blue dude said something serious.

That said, I heard "that just happened" in an episode of Psych recently. I bring it up because there were redditors saying they couldn't find any instance of that ever being used and it was just made up by critics of quirky, random humor.

 

[starborn427614]

I think a lot of Marvel's nonsense is more attitude and reactions then one-liners, like someone giving a dramatic speech only for a character to make a stupid joke in response: like in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 with that "welcome to the frickin guardians, only he didn't say frickin" line after the blue dude said something serious.

That said, I heard "that just happened" in an episode of Psych recently. I bring it up because there were redditors saying they couldn't find any instance of that ever being used and it was just made up by critics of quirky, random humor.

Guardians 2 had a problem with humour in general, it was too in love with its own jokes. Mercifully they reigned it back for 3 and it was all the better for it.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

because there were redditors saying they couldn't find any instance of that ever being used

That's the problem with culture and social interactions being online. It's harder to find examples unless you're willing to go back years and know exactly what you're looking for.

Like calling John Mulaney a "wife guy" people thought that wasn't true but if you hear him on podcasts or interviews she's all he talks about and it's very weird. Knowing what happens to their relationship later.

"That just happened" was a total lolcats era phrase. It's like narwhal bacons at midnight. It was huge in the late 2000s to talk like that. I guarantee you someone said it on Chuck after some guy gets blown up.

 

[Nick Obre]

If nothing else, you can find that humor in things like Forspoken and the Saint's Row reboot

 

[Oilspill Battery]

There's an insane moment where

I'm not trying to be mean, but like at this point how is this any more engaging than watching toddlers smash dolls toogether?

I've seen a comic where wolverine regenerates from a drop of blood. You have a blatantly overpowered main character that's immortal, invincible, indestructible, never in any threat or peril whos problems half the time get solved by asspulls and who's power level wildly fluctuates depending on how many times the writer saw his shadow this week.

Like. Can you imagine if any other medium did this?

I'm thinking on all the good movies/books I've ever read in my life and not a single one has "Whoa, the main character is literally invincible and is never in any peril or danger even when their fucking head gets exploded!" as a selling point.

It feels like american comics as a whole are held to such a catastrophically lower standard that the level of writing that would considered unacceptably dogshit in any other medium is considered par for the course for comics.

I'm curious now, outside watchmen is there literally ANY superhero comic that could be considered a standalone classic that transcends the medium?

Inbetween the literally hundreds of thousands of stories, writers and artists over nearly a hundred years, you'd think by the monkey typewriter principle the comic industry would have produced at least one dune or neuromancer or whatever, but... no. It seems that appart from watchmen that somehow arrived on the scene by sheer divine fucking providence, its literally pure pulp all the way down.

And I don't mean "Oh issue 73# of spiderman run 38# is really good by comic book standards as long as you're familiar with cyan hulk and yellow batman beforehand!"

I mean "Yeah, I'm torn between lord of the rings or the adventures of glub shitto."

Like fuck it, maybe lord of the rings is too high a standard let's be fair and use a more comperable medium, how about a fucking death note? A ghost in the shell?

Why are comics incapable of producing anything that's even remotely thought provoking?

Idunno its just weird that comic books dug a pit for themselvse and have been wallowing in it for nearly 100 years, tens of thousands of writers and millions of pages and not a single one has escaped the sludge pit even by sheer fucking accident.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Idunno its just weird that comic books dug a pit for themselvse and have been wallowing in it for nearly 100 years, tens of thousands of writers and millions of pages and not a single one has escaped the sludge pit even by sheer fucking accident.

I mean, you literally mentioned Watchmen. That definitely qualifies as Monkey writing Shakespeare.

American comic book writers, due to the Hayes Code, have been filtered down to only wanting to write Capeshit. They don't have it in them to write any other genre in the way the Japanese do where they isolate a specific audience and cater to it. Fujoshi read romance novels; they would love a graphic novel about Fabio's shirt bursting apart at the seams every other panel. They don't make comics like this because the competent veterans are like Ethan Van Scriver.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

I mean, you literally mentioned Watchmen. That definitely qualifies as Monkey writing Shakespeare.

American comic book writers, due to the Hayes Code, have been filtered down to only wanting to write Capeshit. They don't have it in them to write any other genre in the way the Japanese do where they isolate a specific audience and cater to it. Fujoshi read romance novels; they would love a graphic novel about Fabio's shirt bursting apart at the seams every other panel. They don't make comics like this because the competent veterans are like Ethan Van Scriver.

The hayes code was a thing for 30 years in an industry that is over 90, hasn't been a thing for 50 years and comic books are still sludge when compared to other mediums.

Blaming the hayes code for modern comics being shit today is like second generation african immigrants blaming slavery for their ills.

Yeah sure they were filtered back then, but most of these writers/artists are gone now and have been replaced on people who grew up with watchmen and shit but comics are still colourful key jangling at best.

Manga also has a shitload of slop in it as does everything according to Sturgeon's law, but that implies only 90% of it is shit, while comic books somehow transcend Sturgeon's law by being 100% shit with literally a single exception, that being watchmen, and I brought it up because the exception proves the rule.

Watchmen proves you CAN transcend 100 years of literal pulp. Its just that nobody has done it before or since.

Honestly if it wasn't for watchmen I wouldn't have even made this comment because I would have genuinely thought that the medium is fundumentally incompatible with good storytelling because what other explenation even is there?

But its not incompatible, so what the fuck gives? How is it statistically possible that not a single other autist at marvel or dc has been given access to a pen long enough to rival watchmen in over 100 fucking years and millions of fucking attempts?

Even if we exclude the years under the hayes code that's still 50 years of comics that are incapable of being anything more than disposable pulp. Even the "good" comics need to be qualified that they are only "good" as long as you lower your standards to a comic book level.

If someone tells me "I just read neuromancer, I need something similar to read." I can recommend ghost in the shell, I can't recommend DC's cyborg.

They don't make comics like this because the competent veterans are like Ethan Van Scriver.

Even independant comic book artists for the most part play by the tropes. Yeah cyberfrog is probably a lot more competent than the average comic, but its still playing by comic book standards instead of trying to transcend them.

If someone asks me for something good to read, I can recommend watchmen, death note, ghost in the shell, Vagabond, Lone wolf and cub, unironically as readable pieces of media that will appeal to and satisfy an uninitiated adult with real (or even high) standards, I can't really do the same with cyberfrog.

 

[Michael Wade]

It's cliche but manga gets more genuine feels then American comics unless they are significantly older or indie. There's a lot of reasons, but when shitty writing isnt involved its usually because the status quo never changes and interesting ideas are not explored.

The last time I had genuine feelings while reading a comic was the new transformers where Prime steps on a dear by accident and actually is the main character for once.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

death note

that's just dbz with rube goldberg schemes instead of standing there and going WUAHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

you should probably check out old EC stuff, horror/scifi/etc anthologies, sometimes working with Bradbury types

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

But its not incompatible, so what the fuck gives? How is it statistically possible that not a single other autist at marvel or dc has been given access to a pen long enough to rival watchmen in over 100 fucking years and millions of fucking attempts?

Well, feminism and DEI sabotaged that industry harder than movies. Ya Boi Zack is a lol calf now, but he was right to point to that cause for why 21th century comics are bad and overpriced.

Back to EVS-types, he is a product of getting filtered and selection bias in a functioning comics industry. Back when it was a business, EVS was the kind of person they would hire because of the Marvel Method. Creative types min-max either prose or drawing, but can't do both. Since both are college-level subjects to master, artists aren't that aware of classical subjects and how to write in similar ways.

 

[Seventh Star]

Even independant comic book artists for the most part play by the tropes. Yeah cyberfrog is probably a lot more competent than the average comic, but its still playing by comic book standards instead of trying to transcend them.

I mean it depends what you consider a western comic book. I'd consider Cerebus and Asterix pretty good, but they aren't capeshit.

 

[Vibralldo]

I think a lot of Marvel's nonsense is more attitude and reactions then one-liners, like someone giving a dramatic speech only for a character to make a stupid joke in response: like in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 with that "welcome to the frickin guardians, only he didn't say frickin" line after the blue dude said something serious.

That said, I heard "that just happened" in an episode of Psych recently. I bring it up because there were redditors saying they couldn't find any instance of that ever being used and it was just made up by critics of quirky, random humor.

I hate the fear of seriousness that modern writing has too

There's a scene in Wolfenstein 2 where BJ and his pregnant wife Anya are having a heartfelt talk about BJ's mortality. Instead of letting the gravity of the situation linger, the comedy character Super Speshe comes out of the toilet behind them and says "the toilets work! Is this a bad time?"

They're afraid of being seen as cheesy, so they self sabotage their serious moments to make themselves seem like they're too cool to have actual emotions.

It's like the modern ugly on purpose aesthetic that iDubbbz does:

"I dress like a white trash loser with a bad moustache and greasy mullet on purpose, so you can't criticize me because it's part of the style!"

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

I'm curious now, outside watchmen is there literally ANY superhero comic that could be considered a standalone classic that transcends the medium?

Dark Phoenix and Kingdom Come off the top of my head. Watchmen only gets as much praise as it does because critics are faggots who prefer 3edgy5u misery pornand naval gazing to anything with a happy or cathartic ending.

It's cliche but manga gets more genuine feels then American comics unless they are significantly older or indie. There's a lot of reasons, but when shitty writing isnt involved its usually because the status quo never changes and interesting ideas are not explored

When interesting ideas are explored in western comics, they're usually in the context of what's come before, e.g. Blackest Night. That tends to make them inaccessible to outsiders, though.


Manga in the west benefits strongly from both the import filter (nobody's going to bother licensing or translating whatever the Japanese version of the 77th attempt making Ms. Marvel a thing) and the fact that the business of manga is run as a business, ruthlessly trimming the fat and focusing on the bottom line. Western comics, in contrast, are just IP farms for conglomerated parent companies, so it doesn't matter how badly they're run. As a result, they get taken over by people who prefer office politics to putting out product. This is why perennial underperformers like Mags Visaggio can hang around for years despite never putting out anything that could be reasonably considered a success.