The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

Sanning is completely wrong (he dismisses all contemporaneous Nazi data on Jewish populations, in favor of secondhand and speculative "data," which he often misquotes: and he also dismisses deportation data like the Höfle telegram and the largely intact Auschwitz deportation records).

But as Aves aptly notes, resettlement would still be absurd if Sanning is correct.

Suppose only 1,500,000 Jews disappeared in the Nazi camp system instead of the real figure of over 3,000,000. Of those suppose 1,000,000 were resettled in Jewlantis. It is still completely absurd that there is not a single witness to resettlement, or residue of infrastructure, communications (letters to and from the resettlement), economic activity, etc.

Sanning is the superior study as detailed by Rudolf. You were challenged by codoh. You demurred. You also refused to write an essay they could respond to or go on rodoh with a response. You don't have an excuse. Therefore you were defeated.

 

[mgc]

Sanning is the superior study as detailed by Rudolf. You were challenged by codoh. You demurred. You also refused to write an essay they could respond to or go on rodoh with a response. You don't have an excuse. Therefore you were defeated.

A bit OT but is rodoh still an active forum? iirc they were shut down.

I am busy the next month preparing a chapter of my PhD thesis, but a response to Faulk/Sanning is in the works, rest assured.

 

[Chugger]

Im not going to answer on things I don't have much information on. We can certainly speculate though,

Possible reasons;

Lack of motivation to tell terrible stories about nothing much happening

do you think they were better off than the average Russian or Ukrainian under occupation?

Not existing as actual humans but as numbers on pages

Mattogno et al disagree with you here, they think documents like the Korherr report are legit and represent reality more or less. So what are your references in substantiating this point?

 

[Chugger]

1. Hmmm. Eastern Europeans in the east. In ww2. Too vague.

Mattogno et al think they were transported into occupied USSR, so I'm asking you if they were treated better than the people already there.

2. Given above.

i have no idea what you're talking about. the idea that the Germans faked the Korherr report and other documents is dumb, so needs to be substantiated

 

[mrolonzo]

Pie and Oglooger were quite right to call me out re Khmer Rogue, which is an example of a non-Nazi regime that not only commited genocide, but actually attempted to exterminate an entire ethnic group. (This is not the same thing; most genocides do not involve the wholesale attempt to wipe out an ethnic group, but simply targeted and systematic killings of civilians within an ethnic group.)

The Muslim minority in Cambodia, who were certainly targeted for elimination, were a separate ethno-religious group (Chams), not merely Cambodian Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chams

So the Khmer Rogue genocide did involve an attempt to eliminate entirely (not through killing in all cases, but through killing and cultural genocide) an ethnic group, namely the Chams. Not knowing enough about the subject, I assumed the Cambodian Muslims were just differentiated by religion.

Wow. A peddler blunders around thinking he is knowledgeable because he's "doing a phD". Color us surprised.

A bit OT but is rodoh still an active forum? iirc they were shut down.

I am busy the next month preparing a chapter of my PhD thesis, but a response to Faulk/Sanning is in the works, rest assured.

LMAO. Fuck off faggot you're posting here regularly.

do you think they were better off than the average Russian or Ukrainian under occupation?


Mattogno et al disagree with you here, they think documents like the Korherr report are legit and represent reality more or less. So what are your references in substantiating this point?

1. Not sure

2. Given above.

Mattogno et al think they were transported into occupied USSR, so I'm asking you if they were treated better than the people already there.


i have no idea what you're talking about. the idea that the Germans faked the Korherr report and other documents is dumb, so needs to be substantiated

1. Not sure

2. Given above.

 

[mgc]

Wow. A peddler blunders around thinking he is knowledgeable because he's "doing a phD". Color us surprised.

I do not think admitting to a mistake (about my analysis of another genocide, not the Holocaust) is a sign of weakness. It is part of doing history and learning.

As to why I have not made my response to Faulk and Sanning yet, but am posting here - it takes a lot more time and energy to create videos than to post here.

 

[Chugger]

1. Not sure

So your best answer to the question of the silent witnesses, is that nothing much happened to them?

"Lack of motivation to tell terrible stories about nothing much happening"

what might "nothing much happening" look like? remember during this time in occupied USSR 15-20 million civilians died, a level of devastation unparalleled in world history

2. Given above.

You gave no references. This is not Mattogno and co's position. You think these guys are the best historians on the subject, so your point of disagreement with them needs to be substantiated.

 

[mgc]

What exactly is your position on the "problem of the disappeared Jews", zo? You seem quite evasive on this score.

Is it 1) They did not actually disappear (The Allies faked the deportation records and also lied about how many Jews they found in the camps at the end of the war)

Or 2) Resettlement?

Or 3) "I don't know"?

 

[Aves]

Define your terms. What's normal in world war two?

Dude, even in the context of WWII there still existed many witness statements of “normal” things. The polish witnesses I gave before by the ushmm weren’t all deported. Some of them weren’t even bothered much. Yet, they still talked about seeing Jews being taken away or their own “normal” deportations.

Also, it’s not about Jews talking dude, it’s historians. The holocaust is the single most recorded “conflagration” in human history. Thousands of historians, both affirmers and deniers, have spent years on this. Why has no one found or recorded these Jews?

 

[JohnDoe]

On the contrary, it must muster the determination either to seal off these alien racial elements, so that the blood of its own Folk will not be corrupted again, or it must without further ado remove them and hand over the vacated territory to its own National Comrades..

So Hitler here is calling for either the segregation (presumably through some kind of ghettoization scheme) or ethnic cleansing of Poles from the German Lebensraum.

Why does everything turn into genocide with you? Have you ever heard the quip 'if everything sounds like a dog whistle, maybe you're a dog?' Could be appropriate here, but most dogs are smarter.

What exactly is your position on the "problem of the disappeared Jews?"

I don't have one, why don't you prove your theory as to what happened? Start from proving the Jews disappeared and then work from there. Remember, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claims.

 

[mgc]

This was simply too big a blunder for you to avoid, thus the quick correction. Pie and oglooger's point stands.

What exactly is your point here? We agree that I was completely wrong about this element of the Khmer Rouge, as I promptly admitted. Is your claim that you do not make mistakes, or that making a mistake on an internet forum (promptly corrected) is discrediting, or that correcting mistakes is bad?

My mistake was not realizing that the exterminated Cambodian Muslims (Cham) were a distinct ethnic group, I had read about the extermination of the Cham years ago, but (writing today) thought that Cham was just the name of a Cambodian Muslim sect. But nope, I was wrong.

And fwiw, there are many historians who (while obviously admitting to the genocide) continue to deny that the Cambodians intended to extirpate any ethnic groups. From what I have read, they are quite wrong.

This source summarizes well the debate historians and lawyers had over the events in Cambodia as genocide several years ago, when the two survivors of the Khmer Rouge leadership were before a war-crimes tribunal. https://www.refworld.org/docid/55f6a1d64.html.

As my earlier mistake suggests, I am no expert on the Cambodian genocide and indeed have not read about it for years. But the fact that I was willing to concede a mistake (when I really did not have to, insofar as there are historians who reject the idea that the Khmer Rouge intended on total annihilation of an ethnic group), should show you my good faith if anything.

 

[Chugger]

What exactly is your position on the "problem of the disappeared Jews", zo? You seem quite evasive on this score.

actually I think he's much less evasive than the average revisionist here. the problem is there's just nothing to say, beyond referring to nebulous studies and threads that don't answer the main question we're asking .

i think he should just bite the bullet . the revisionist narrative has major major major problems

Why does everything turn into genocide with you?

ethnic cleansing is just deportation based on group (which obviously could turn genocidal but isn't necessarily so)

 

[mgc]

Start from proving the Jews disappeared

We have German records (the Höfle Telegram, Korherr Report, and Auschwitz deportation records, among others) indicating that over 3,000,000 Jews were deported to German concentration camps.

At war's end, the survivors found by the Allies in the camp system amounted to no more than 250,000 Jews (and probably much fewer). These Jews were taken to displaced persons camps.

So you have a problem of at least 2.75 million Jews disappearing in the Nazi camp system, over 90% of the deportees. This "problem" is the reason Mattogno (and his hangers-on, like Zo) have to invent the resettlement explanation.

IMO the better "revisionist" strategy would be promoting a conspiracy theory to the effect that the Allies lied about how many Jews they found in the camps. Of course that would be a baseless conspiracy theory too (and inconsistent with German documents, e.g. roll calls of how many Jews were in the camps late in the war), but less absurd on its face than Jewlantis (resettlement theory).

 

[Chugger]

We have German records (the Höfle Telegram, Korherr Report, and Auschwitz deportation records, among others) indicating that over 3,000,000 Jews were deported to German concentration camps.

all the paperwork, private documents (eg Goebbels diary), suggests at the very least a removal of most Jews from German territory.

The korherr report specifies explicitly "The Russian East" as the destination of 1.5 million deported Polish Jews. Revisionists acknowledge disappearance of millions of Jews into the claimed extermination camps (there's ample evidence of them getting to these places). But they believe they were transited out and resettled without leaving any paperwork, or all paperwork destroyed.

The witness testimony suggests that most Germans believed the Jews were being resettled in Russia. (though no testimony exists of anyone actually seeing resettlement or even reporting on credible rumors)

 

[mgc]

Another reason resettlement is impossible relates to the Korherr Report and German policy -

As even deniers recognize, German policy was always about expelling the Jews out of Europe.

Consistent with this aim, Korherr Report talks about Jews who have 'left Europe' by various means. In its first draft, the Report refers to the removal of 1.45 million Jews from Europe via "special treatment" in the Reinhardt Camps. Special treatment was of course the main SS code word for killing, as I have demonstrated here before, and can do so again if any of you doubt it.

Himmler did not like the use of the term "special treatment" in the document - again, widely known as the SS code word for killing - and instructed Korherr to remove it. Thus the second draft of the Korherr Report describes how 1.45 million Jews have 'left Europe' by being transited through the Reinhardt camps and resettled in the Russia east.

While running away from the first draft of the report (and Himmler's request for Korherr to drop the term "special treatment"), deniers obviously love the second draft of the document, since they think they can use it as "evidence" of "resettlement."

Yet we must remember that the Korherr Report is about Jews leaving Europe. The Germans could not have resettled the Jews in the (non-European) Russian East because they never occupied non-European Russia. (The North Caucausus are in Eastern Europe, not Asia.)

So it is literally impossible that they could have resettled the Jews in the "Russian east," as the second draft Korherr Report says they did. unless you are suggesting that they crossed enemy lines to drop off the millions of Jews.

 

[Aves]

What exactly is your position on the "problem of the disappeared Jews", zo? You seem quite evasive on this score.

Is it 1) They did not actually disappear (The Allies faked the deportation records and also lied about how many Jews they found in the camps at the end of the war)

Or 2) Resettlement?

Or 3) "I don't know"?

His position was that he thinks the Jews “scattered to the winds.” So they weren’t exactly thrown to the east but they all decided to leave to another country or just stay at home, and that none of them ever spoke on any of their deportations.

 

[Aves]

Dude, even in the context of WWII there still existed many witness statements of “normal” things. The polish witnesses I gave before by the ushmm weren’t all deported. Some of them weren’t even bothered much. Yet, they still talked about seeing Jews being taken away or their own “normal” deportations.

Also, it’s not about Jews talking dude, it’s historians. The holocaust is the single most recorded “conflagration” in human history. Thousands of historians, both affirmers and deniers, have spent years on this. Why has no one found or recorded these Jews?

And another thing I want to add here (I can’t edit the previous post).

When it comes to the holocaust, Jews are the center of attention. No one ever says “muh 11 gorillion” because there is far less attention on Gypsys or Poles. This entire thread is proof of that.

So why is it that these millions of Jews (whether it be 1, 2, or 6) deported and sent around camps unfindable? So much more evidence should exist, both by the Jews themselves and by the many, many holocaust historians spending years researching these Jews.

 

[Abbadon's Gate]

I'll be honest, I have no idea what the fucking is happening in this thread anymore and I have no idea who's on what side.

This is probably why you don't argue with stupid people, its impossible to tell who's who anymore.

 

[mrolonzo]

So your best answer to the question of the silent witnesses, is that nothing much happened to them?

"Lack of motivation to tell terrible stories about nothing much happening"

what might "nothing much happening" look like? remember during this time in occupied USSR 15-20 million civilians died, a level of devastation unparalleled in world history



You gave no references. This is not Mattogno and co's position. You think these guys are the best historians on the subject, so your point of disagreement with them needs to be substantiated.

What exactly is your position on the "problem of the disappeared Jews", zo? You seem quite evasive on this score.

Is it 1) They did not actually disappear (The Allies faked the deportation records and also lied about how many Jews they found in the camps at the end of the war)

Or 2) Resettlement?

Or 3) "I don't know"?

1. Nothing much. Boredom.

2. Russia is a big place so this point is refuted.

3. I gave multiple references, Sanning, Benz, Rudolf, threads with you in them, with HS and Johnathan Harrison in them. Oh and Stephen Challen too. You just don't want to read them.

Dude, even in the context of WWII there still existed many witness statements of “normal” things. The polish witnesses I gave before by the ushmm weren’t all deported. Some of them weren’t even bothered much. Yet, they still talked about seeing Jews being taken away or their own “normal” deportations.

Also, it’s not about Jews talking dude, it’s historians. The holocaust is the single most recorded “conflagration” in human history. Thousands of historians, both affirmers and deniers, have spent years on this. Why has no one found or recorded these Jews?

1. Jews were indeed taken away. So what?

2. Most likely because the numbers existed only on paper. This is the most logical explanation and easily fits with physical possibilities.

What exactly is your point here? We agree that I was completely wrong about this element of the Khmer Rogue, as I promptly admitted. Is your claim that you do not make mistakes, or that making a mistake on an internet forum (promptly corrected) is discrediting, or that correcting mistakes is bad?

My mistake was not realizing that the exterminated Cambodian Muslims (Cham) were a distinct ethnic group, I had read about the extermination of the Cham years ago, but (writing today) thought that Cham was just the name of a Cambodian Muslim sect. But nope, I was wrong.

And fwiw, there are many historians who (while obviously admitting to the genocide) continue to deny that the Cambodians intended to extirpate any ethnic groups. From what I have read, they are quite wrong.

This source summarizes well the debate historians and lawyers had over the events in Cambodia as genocide several years ago, when the two survivors of the Khmer Rogue regime were before a war-crimes tribunal. https://www.refworld.org/docid/55f6a1d64.html.

As my earlier mistake suggests, I am no expert on the Cambodian genocide and indeed have not read about it for years. But the fact that I was willing to concede a mistake (when I really did not have to, insofar as there are historians who reject the idea that the Khmer Rogue intended on total annihilation of an ethnic group), should show you my good faith if anything.

Stop being butthurt. You don't mind calling everyone names, now you get exposed over a blunder and want absolution?

We don't give a fuck about the Khmer rouge and what exactly they did. Its simply about what wartime groups can and have done. You wanted to paint the nazis as le ebil nazis by denying the comparison. This failed. That's all.

A bit of humility and honesty, perhaps even friendliness and respect would be noice but that's maybe a bit much.

actually I think he's much less evasive than the average revisionist here. the problem is there's just nothing to say, beyond referring to nebulous studies and threads that don't answer the main question we're asking .

i think he should just bite the bullet . the revisionist narrative has major major major problems


ethnic cleansing is just deportation based on group (which obviously could turn genocidal but isn't necessarily so)

The studies referred to are not nebulous but are in fact the top tier in the demographic study to date.

The revisionist narrative does have an ongoing issue with the exact fate of every jew. But of course this problem is not a threat to revisionism. The orthodoxy is defeated and has already admitted defeat.

We have German records (the Höfle Telegram, Korherr Report, and Auschwitz deportation records, among others) indicating that over 3,000,000 Jews were deported to German concentration camps.

At war's end, the survivors found by the Allies in the camp system amounted to no more than 250,000 Jews (and probably much fewer). These Jews were taken to displaced persons camps.

So you have a problem of at least 2.75 million Jews disappearing in the Nazi camp system, over 90% of the deportees. This "problem" is the reason Mattogno (and his hangers-on, like Zo) have to invent the resettlement explanation.

IMO the better "revisionist" strategy would be promoting a conspiracy theory to the effect that the Allies lied about how many Jews they found in the camps. Of course that would be a baseless conspiracy theory too (and inconsistent with German documents, e.g. roll calls of how many Jews were in the camps late in the war), but less absurd on its face than Jewlantis (resettlement theory).

Ive addressed this above with various studies.

Promoting conspiracy theories is literally your thing. Not ours.

Another reason resettlement is impossible relates to the Korherr Report and German policy -

As even deniers recognize, German policy was always about expelling the Jews out of Europe.

Consistent with this aim, Korherr Report talks about Jews who have 'left Europe' by various means. In its first draft, the Report refers to the removal of 1.45 million Jews from Europe via "special treatment" in the Reinhardt Camps. Special treatment was of course the main SS code word for killing, as I have demonstrated here before, and can do so again if any of you doubt it.

Himmler did not like the use of the term "special treatment" in the document - again, widely known as the SS code word for killing - and instructed Korherr to remove it. Thus the second draft of the Korherr Report describes how 1.45 million Jews have 'left Europe' by being transited through the Reinhardt camps and resettled in the Russia east.

While running away from the first draft of the report (and Himmler's request for Korherr to drop the term "special treatment"), deniers obviously love the second draft of the document, since they think they can use it as "evidence" of "resettlement."

Yet we must remember that the Korherr Report is about Jews leaving Europe. The Germans could not have resettled the Jews in the (non-European) Russian East because they never occupied non-European Russia. (The North Caucausus are in Eastern Europe, not Asia.)

So it is literally impossible that they could have resettled the Jews in the "Russian east," as the second draft Korherr Report says they did. unless you are suggesting that they crossed enemy lines to drop off the millions of Jews.

This is addressed above. Specifically by Stephen Challen.

And another thing I want to add here (I can’t edit the previous post).

When it comes to the holocaust, Jews are the center of attention. No one ever says “muh 11 gorillion” because there is far less attention on Gypsys or Poles. This entire thread is proof of that.

So why is it that these millions of Jews (whether it be 1, 2, or 6) deported and sent around camps unfindable? So much more contemporary evidence should exist, both by the Jews themselves and by the many, many holocaust historians spending years on them.

Should it?

In what form?

Where would be kept?

Given the above studies I mentioned and the huge problems with certainty here, exactly how many are you looking for?

 

[mgc]

His position was that he thinks the Jews “scattered to the winds.”

I unironically have no idea what that means.

Does he mean they were not deported? Or that they left their resettlement right away, and this is why there is no trace of this community of millions? Or that there were many smaller resettlements rather than one big one?