The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

I'll still revisit your other reply when I have time for more of a driveby comment as I did the one before.

I had no idea I could just say "that argument that puts my own version of events as improbable just doesn't interest me so I'll ignore it." I've already spent at least an hour reading your links.

You won't do 15 minutes of math and 5 minutes of research about cremation just to think about the unreasonability of what you had just said?

Perhaps if you guys are so concerned with the minute logistics of body cremation you can also do an in-depth study of the logistics of how much it would cost to supply millions of Jews in a warzone with livable supply of food, water, and heat per year

or possibly the logistics of how an "organization" could destroy likely hundreds of thousands documents pertaining to resettlement of millions of Jews in Russia + get millions of Jewish witnesses to be completely quiet about it (you'd think they'd say something accidentally just like they did with the auschwitz vacation) + get tens of thousands of Russian and German witnesses to stay completely quiet about it, and keep this up for decades , through dozens of different administrations and the fall of the USSR, and do this all without leaving a shred of concrete evidence of their actions . . .

if you could do this, I might entertain your fancies about a subject I have no interest in (this CSI shit--I'm a documents boy)

But alas, it seems you are not able to exercise even a fraction of the skepticism you show here on your own hypotheses. Shouldn't each theory be treated with equal scrutiny?

 

[Bonesjones]

Perhaps if you guys are so concerned with the minute logistics of body cremation you can also do an in-depth study of the logistics of how much it would cost to supply millions of Jews in a warzone with livable supply of food, water, and heat per year

or possibly the logistics of how an "organization" could destroy likely hundreds of thousands documents pertaining to resettlement of millions of Jews in Russia + get millions of Jewish witnesses to be completely quiet about it (you'd think they'd say something accidentally just like they did with the auschwitz vacation) + get tens of thousands of Russian and German witnesses to stay completely quiet about it, and keep this up for decades , through dozens of different administrations and the fall of the USSR, and do this all without leaving a shred of concrete evidence of their actions . . .

if you could do this, I might entertain your fancies about a subject I have no interest in (this CSI shit--I'm a documents boy)

But alas, it seems you are not able to exercise even a fraction of the skepticism you show here on your own hypotheses. Shouldn't each theory be treated with equal scrutiny?

We don't have to do that because the claim is that the Nazi's engaged in a industrial scale genocide of jews and other undesirables. That's the beginning of everything. The claim isn't that Nazi Germany was negligent in their treatment of POWs and civilians, which would be easily provable but remove all moral authority that the allies could claim since their own actions were far worse in behavior and scale.

 

[Chugger]

We don't have to do that because the claim is that the Nazi's engaged in a industrial scale genocide of jews and other undesirables. That's the beginning of everything. The claim isn't that Nazi Germany was negligent in their treatment of POWs and civilians, which would be easily provable but remove all moral authority that the allies could claim since their own actions were far worse in behavior and scale.

Wait so why exactly is your claim about what happened (resettlement of millions in Russia) above scrutiny? Is this how history works?

 

[byuu]

You won't do 15 minutes of math and 5 minutes of research about cremation just to think about the unreasonability of what you had just said?

Looking around myself a bit, 5 minutes of research only gives you the numbers of a traditional funeral cremation that were already mentioned.
Which is very fast and very complete for a single corpse.
It stands to reason that a process where you let a batch of bodies slowly dehydrate first which then act as fuel itself (without water the body is mostly fats and proteins) and doesn't require complete incineration would require far less fuel.
However my 5 minutes of research did not give me any numbers for this.

Also how much problem was fuel anyway? Sure oil was a huge problem - but coal? Germany was one of the largest coal producers in the world and the production only ramped up during the war.
However there were coal shortages in lots of civilian areas despite an abundance of coal. But they were caused by logistics problem and places constantly got too much coal while others got too little.

 

[Bonesjones]

Wait so why exactly is your claim about what happened (resettlement of millions in Russia) above scrutiny? Is this how history works?

How would you know how history works? You believe postwar narratives invented by the allies to recontexualize the past to absolve the allies of their own war crimes and mis deeds.

The Germans said they shipped hundreds of thousands, if not millions into the east, we have paperwork and solid factual basis. So that part isn't really up for debate.

You claim they were all murdered and when people ask where are the bodies you just shrug and go lol idk it's totally what happened though.

When you point to the evidence there was massive death, we can post historical records of the massive amounts of disease and malnutrition. This isn't an indication of the intentional genocide of anyone, its a sad fact of life that was the result of total war that both sides engaged in.

You claim they had gas chambers that killed millions on arrival and then they were cremated and buried. This is a huge logistics problem, far greater than a slave labor camp that was slowly starved to death by damaged infrastructure.

Again the problem is you take any fact presented to you and go SEE SEE THEY TOTALLY DID IT because you've been programed to think ideologically.

Pointing to the Nuremburg trials or David Irving flip-flopping as anything other than powerful people leaning on people to recant and follow the narrative or else shows a lack of critical thinking on your part.

Looking around myself a bit, 5 minutes of research only gives you the numbers of a traditional funeral cremation that were already mentioned.
Which is very fast and very complete for a single corpse.
It stands to reason that a process where you let a batch of bodies slowly dehydrate first which then act as fuel itself (without water the body is mostly fats and proteins) and doesn't require complete incineration would require far less fuel.
However my 5 minutes of research did not give me any numbers for this.

Also how much problem was fuel anyway? Sure oil was a huge problem - but coal? Germany was one of the largest coal producers in the world and the production only ramped up during the war.
However there were coal shortages in lots of civilian areas despite an abundance of coal. But they were caused by logistics problem and places constantly got too much coal while others got too little.

People are mostly water, they don't dehydrate, they rot. Saying their fat and protein could be used as fuel is like saying you can cook a steak by lighting it on fire first. That idea was put forth to justify the idea of massive cremation without the corresponding inputs.

 

[Kramer on the phone]

i agree with @Pissmaster why would anyone think guys like this would lie or exaggerate their suffering?

 

[byuu]

People are mostly water, they don't dehydrate, they rot.

So are fruits, I can still dehydrate them. I don't claim you can do that without any fuel whatsoever or something.

 

[Kramer on the phone]

i agree with @Pissmaster why would anyone think guys like this would lie or exaggerate their suffering?

in fact i will go through this thread later in the month and personally round up all the people defending the idea that these two's tribe is infallible and force them into a group to defend the honor of our current Holocaust surviving lolcows. You fuckers should thank adonai himself that DSP isn't a fucking Heeb. his a-logs would eat you alive!

@Chugger slightly off topic, do you believe Ethan Klein and Dick Masterson are infallible and have never exaggerated ever?

 

[Bonesjones]

@Chugger slightly off topic, do you believe Ethan Klein and Dick Masterson are infallible and have never exaggerated ever?

He will believe anything his JIDF script tells him to

 

[byuu]

i agree with @Pissmaster why would anyone think guys like this would lie or exaggerate their suffering?

Personally, I only trust these upstanding fellows:

 

[Kramer on the phone]

Personally, I only trust these upstanding fellows:
View attachment 2621543

i mean at least they're honest and open about who they are; they aren't grifters or schemers

 

[Lemmingwise]

Perhaps if you guys are so concerned with the minute logistics of body cremation you can also do an in-depth study of the logistics of how much it would cost to supply millions of Jews in a warzone with livable supply of food, water, and heat per year

There we go, now you're getting into the spirit of things. When challenged on a single part, attack the people instead.

Remember, it was your own claim, that most jewish bodies were disposed in open air crematoriums using wood and gasoline. Rather than defending it, you're now making an argument that it doesn't matter how the jews were killed, what matters is that they were killed.

Also how much problem was fuel anyway? Sure oil was a huge problem - but coal? Germany was one of the largest coal producers in the world and the production only ramped up during the war.

Thats nice and all, but it doesn't really support his previous claim does it?

After all he said:

The vast majority of Jews were burned thru open air cremation, and even at Auschwitz it seems likely that a large amount were burned outside. For this wood was used, as well as gasoline

If they had a gasoline shortage and a coal surplus, why the fuck did they use gasoline and wood?

Or rather, why did you think mentioning coal surplus was relevant at all.


And just to finish it off

It stands to reason that a process where you let a batch of bodies slowly dehydrate first which then act as fuel itself (without water the body is mostly fats and proteins) and doesn't require complete incineration would require far less fuel.

KEK


I do appreciate you doing some independant thinking on this. Let me know if you need me to explain what is retardedly funny about this.

Shouldn't each theory be treated with equal scrutiny?

Which theory is not getting scrutinised?

 

[Bad Gateway]

Ok so I'm not gay but I'm Swedish and have a fantasy where Germany win world war two and Sweden needs to export aryan twink boipussy slaves to high ranking SS officers for pleasure. I imagine I'm a shy little blonde twink with smooth pale skin and being brought into komedant heinrichs bedroom to give him pleasure. He is a tall broad shoulders kraut with a jawline that could cut a diamond and with massive daddy muscles and I'm a pathetic skinny little boipussy twink. He pulls me into his arms force kissing me and pressing my chest against his. He pins me down on the bed tearing my cute lil virgin panties off, he has waited for this for a long time. He teases my boipussy with his massive thicc German cock and then he goes all in. Fucking me with a force I've never felt before. Every thrust makes him moan with pleasure. I love the fact I give him pleasure. He cums deep into my sissy swede guts, breeding my booty hole then he cuddles me with his strong masculine German arms until I fall asleep on his chest.

Any other straight guys have similar fantasies?

 

[byuu]

Thats nice and all, but it doesn't really support your previous claim does it?

That's the other guy's claim. I have not looked at it myself.
I just tried to follow your claim that you just need of 5 minutes research.

Or rather, why did you think mentioning coal surplus was relevant at all.

Because some guy mentioned coal coke.

KEK

You don't think a slower and less thorough burning in batch would be more fuel efficient than the complete and quick incineration of a single corpse?

 

[Lemmingwise]

That's the other guy's claim

I noticed just after posting it and edited to fix that.

You don't think a slower and less thorough burning in batch would be more fuel efficient than the complete and quick incineration of a single corpse?

It is very fuel efficient to let bodies rot. The problems are disease, rats, stench, just to start with. If you've ever smelled a partially decomposed body, you'd realize what a hazard mass piles of decomposing bodies would be on the scale involved.

There is another fuel efficient solution that isn't such a health and environment hazard. Mass graves.

 

[Rapechu]

I am perceiving here that I have already won, so my involvement from here on will be limited. If you cannot address my main point, that the logistics of an alleged industrialized genocide don't make sense, then the classy thing to do would be to concede defeat

As other posters have already expressed, I am not claiming that civilians did not die in WW2, I am claiming that there was no intentional, industrialized genocide. The holocaust narrative is an intentional obfuscation of the deterioriated conditions in wartime Germany that treats it as if it were some sort of German master plan for there to be a nationwide food deficit. The fact that you yourself have posted transcripts of Germans discussing humane solutions only corroborates that this was not an intended suffering.

As for addressing David Cole, can I just first express how happy I am that both sides have decided to use him as the primary speaker? I could post dozens of links from the man, he was absolutely based, but I won't, not out of mercy for the opposition, but out of laziness, because I don't want to take the time to organize it all (though I may if sufficiently peeved).

Holocaust Survivor Finds 'Exterminated' Brother Through Appearance with Revisionists on 'Montel Williams Show'

The IHR, an independent, public interest history research and publishing center, seeks to promote peace and freedom through greater awareness of the past.

www.ihr.org

>For 50 years, Holocaust survivors Ernest Hollander and his brother Alex thought that their older brother, Zoltan, had been executed by the Germans in 1944. And for half a century, Zoltan thought that both his two brothers had been killed by the Germans during the war. But thanks to Ernest Hollander's appearance with revisionists Mark Weber and David Cole on the Montel Williams Show, the long-lost brothers were reunited several months later in San Francisco.

Basically, it turns out that the USSR was a 1984 police state shit hole. Both sides of the family had been told that the other had died and because of the iron curtain they could do nothing but accept this as fact. And ironically, it was because they went on TV to tell their sob stories about the holocaust to try to debunk David Cole, that the narrative they had been given was proven false and they were able to be reunited.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Please explain to me how the SS-Galician and the RONA and other Ost-Legionnaires were genociding themselves. I would like to hear the mental leaps of logic. Germans had plans to settle East Europe to farm undeveloped land, it was not a genocide.

From your post you seem to think that generalplan ost wasn't a genocidal plan, right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[byuu]

It is very fuel efficient to let bodies rot. The problems are disease, rats, stench, just to start with. If you've ever smelled a partially decomposed body, you'd realize what a hazard mass piles of decomposing bodies would be on the scale involved.

There is another fuel efficient solution that isn't such a health and environment hazard. Mass graves.

Did I say letting them rot? A slow burn over a few days doesn't really give the bodies a chance to rot.
But it's still fast enough.

And the claim was that they were originally buried but then opened to burn and crush the remains IIRC.

As other posters have already expressed, I am not claiming that civilians did not die in WW2, I am claiming that there was no intentional, industrialized genocide. The holocaust narrative is an intentional obfuscation of the deterioriated conditions in wartime Germany that treats it as if it were some sort of German master plan for there to be a nationwide food deficit. The fact that you yourself have posted transcripts of Germans discussing humane solutions only corroborates that this was not an intended suffering.

They just systemically rounded them up and deported them to a place where they died.
Just like Turks did with Armenians.
It happens.

 

[Rapechu]

From your post you seem to think that generalplan ost wasn't a genocidal plan, right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Well first of all, there is a complete lack of any sort of German documentation ordering an industrialized genocide of slavs. That should be the first clue. We do know from events like the Polish Action of the NKVD (where Polish civilians were massacred) and Katyn Massacre that the SOVIETS were intentionally genociding Poles, and blaming it on the Germans. This forms the foundation for any ideas of an intentional German genocide of Slavs. The Germans uncovered the massacres during Operation Barbarossa and informed neutral investigators from the red cross (which is the appropriate thing to do when you uncover a genocide). The soviets, predictably, responded with "no... it was you!" and the Brits backed them up well until the collapse of the USSR when the whole scam was leaked.

As for the intentions of Germans, it is not a secret, Hitler publicly outlined it in Mein Kampf and public speeches, with no genocidal tones at all. Imperialistic tones? Yes, but that was the norm for the day. Look at any map of the world in the 30s and see how many imperial acquisitions France and Britain had. Hitler had always intended to liberate Russia from the communists. His moral views were that Germany had millions of people and they were not food-independent. This led to mass starvations whenever a certain island went to war with them and blockaded food exports. If he could make eastern territories protectorates of Germany then Germany would no longer be at the mercy of global superpowers (and these territories would be better off than they were under communism). So ironically, Hitler was trying to prevent a repeat of the situation of mass starvation during war time which he is accused of causing.

 

[Chugger]

Which theory is not getting scrutinised?

You are not scrutinizing eg the logistics of how an organization could "destroy likely hundreds of thousands documents pertaining to resettlement of millions of Jews in Russia + get millions of Jewish witnesses to be completely quiet about it (you'd think they'd say something accidentally just like they did with the auschwitz vacation) + get tens of thousands of Russian and German witnesses to stay completely quiet about it, and keep this up for decades , through dozens of different administrations and the fall of the USSR, and do this all without leaving a shred of concrete evidence of their actions . . ."

https://embed.kiwifarms.st/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/page-48

I am perceiving here that I have already won, so my involvement from here on will be limited. If you cannot address my main point, that the logistics of an alleged industrialized genocide don't make sense, then the classy thing to do would be to concede defeat

Pray tell, how did you win? How do the logistics not make sense? Were there not enough trees in Europe and Russia to provide fuel for the burning of 4 million bodies? Did Germany not have not enough gasoline to do it?

Does this mean I have to simply accept the existence of a vast conspiracy for which there is no evidence? https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-10199921

The Germans said they shipped hundreds of thousands, if not millions into the east, we have paperwork and solid factual basis. So that part isn't really up for debate.

we've been through this I think. There's concrete evidence of the resettled Polish Jews being shipped east to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka (and sometimes shipped west to these places),

Shoah-Part 2: Interview with Raul Hilberg

Director Claude Lanzmann interviews Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg about the train schedules that represent the deaths of thousands of Jews, calling into q...

www.youtube.com

but no evidence of a single transport or even a single person going into the "Russian East" through any of these so called transit camps http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-challenge-to-supporters-of.html

And there isn't evidence of a single site in Russia housing any of these deported people, so too the hundreds of thousands of Jews deported from ghettos in Russia when they were also liquidated.

Instead there are reports like this,

Report to Hitler: "Jews executed: 363,211"

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

of 300,000 Jews being murdered in Russia during this exact time period Q3-4 1942 - corroborated by local reports of Jews being taken out of specific ghettos and shot

On 9 November 1942, the leader of 10th company of SS-Polizeiregiment 15, Helmut Saur, reported that the men were employed for "guarding at the assembly point, securing the individual transports to the execution site, which was about 4 km outside Pinsk". He goes on that "10,000 people were executed. On 30 October, the ghetto was searched through for second time, on 31 October for the third time and on 1 November for the fourth time. A total of about 15,000 Jews were brought to the assembly point. Sick Jews and some children left in the houses were immediately executed in the ghetto in the courtyard. In the ghetto, about 1,200 Jews were executed." (VEJ 8, document 219).​

Holocaust Denial & Himmler's Report to Hitler on "Jews executed: 363,211" (Part II)

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

and also statements like this about there being no more Jews in large parts of 'Russia'

Extract from a Nazi propaganda ministry functionaires report on a tour of RK Ukraine in June 1943:​

​

"Über die Judenfrage hörten wir ganz eindeutige und lapidare Feststellungen. Unter den 16 Millionen Einwohnern des Zivilverwaltungsgebietes Ukraine gab es 1,1 Mill. Juden. Sie sind restlos liquidiert. Wir sahen tatsächlich auf unserer ganzen Reise nur 4 Juden."​

​

"We heard very clear and succinct statements about the Jewish question. There were 1.1 million Jews among the 16 million inhabitants of the civil administration area of Ukraine. They were completely liquidated. We actually saw only 4 Jews on our whole trip."​

L'extermination des Juifs au jour le jour dans les documents nazis

Documents nazis contemporains illustrant la volonte d'exterminer les Juifs et le fait de cette extermination

phdn.org

You claim they were all murdered and when people ask where are the bodies you just shrug and go lol idk it's totally what happened though.

The bodies were destroyed, leaving "mountains" of ash, or ash mixed with sand. This is what archeologists found at the site of alleged death camps like Belzec.

I detailed this in a previous post, probably page 47 lol

@Chugger slightly off topic, do you believe Ethan Klein and Dick Masterson are infallible and have never exaggerated ever?

The only Jew I think about these days is Uncle D (because he has a new movie coming out) and I trust him without measure