The conventional sexual desirability of a complainant influences my belief in rape claims - Rape accusations, belief and incredulity, and Andrea Dworkin.

[Izdaja Slika]

Men rape ugly women. Men rape fat women. Rape is caused by rapists, not by the weight, health conditions, or beauty/ugliness of the people they choose to victimize.

You are essentially saying 'rape victims are chosen at random' and that none of the features of the victim influence the probability of an event. I simply don't believe it because it isn't true. 18% of the population is 65 or older, but they make up only 3% of rape victims. The majority of victims are under 35.

Acknowledging reality is not blaming the victim.

The men in Section 731 were able to "keep wood" for tortured women that had pus leaking out of their vaginas. The 90+ men who raped Giselle Pelicot were able to "keep wood" for an unconscious grandmother in her late 50s. The men who gang-raped Junko Furuta were able to "keep wood" for a teenager who they had starved and tortured to the point where she was unable to walk and her wounds had become infected. Did the mass rapes during the Bosnian War only target 10-out-of-10 hotties? Estimates of the number of women raped during the war range between 10,000 and 50,000 - were they all pretty and skinny? Come on, man. "She's ugly so she must be lying about what that man did to her" is what trans rights losers say when someone mysteriously gets pregnant in a woman's prison.

Rape as war crime is not what Dworkin claimed. I've read Dworkin's claim, and I simply do not believe it. I do not believe a waiter and bartender colluded to spike her drink and then rape Dworkin. I don't believe her subsequent osteoarthritis was a result of the rape, as she believed or at least claimed she believed.

 

[Izdaja Slika]

You could torture statistics to try to make your point, or you could just admit you are wrong and move on (or you could just move on without acknowledging you're wrong).

Admit that I'm wrong about what? That the characteristics of victims have some effect on who rapists victimise? I am not going to 'admit' I am wrong about that because I'm not wrong about that.

It's not that rapists can't get it up for old women. It's that older people are not as often in situations where they encounter a violent criminal.

I don't deny that rape is sometimes a crime of opportunity. Why wouldn't it be?

Or in Andrea Dworkin's case (and by the way, you've never heard of any rape victims gaining weight because they don't want men's attention? I personally know four or five women who gained weight after being sexually assaulted _specifically_ to drew less attention from males),

Where did I claim Dworkin gained weight because of the rape? The alleged incident occurred in 2000; she was already morbidly obese by the late 1980s.

a 65 year old is much less likely to be in a bar in the first place.

Why do you find it hard to believe that the characteristics of victims have an effect on who rapists choose to victimise?

Guess what percentage of people over 65 are victims of murder? Yes, that would be about the same number as you said: 3 to 5 percent.

People over 65 are a very small percentage of carjacking victims.

And: "Adults aged 65+ make up a very small, single-digit percentage (typically 1 to 2%) of overall crime victims nationwide."

I have one question for you: do you believe Dworkin's account?

 

[Izdaja Slika]

Is the conventional sexual desirability of a complainant something that influences your belief or disbelief in a rape claim? And whether it does or not, isn't it an empirical question and not an ideological one about whether conventional sexual desirability of a target influences a rapist's choice of target? If it is true that the conventional sexual desirability of a complainant correlates with being a target of sexual violence, would it not be both rational and moral to acknowledge that information in your belief formation?

Over on Stinkditch, I expressed my incredulity at claims that feminist writer Andrea Dworkin was drugged and raped at a hotel in 1999. This academic article summarises the claims and the context.

I don't believe that Andrea Dworkin was drugged and raped in that hotel. My disbelief arises from a number of factors (inasmuch as I can determine the influence of any factor on how it affects my belief). One of those factors is that at the time of the alleged rape, Dworkin was hypermorbidly obese, over 50, and not conventionally sexually desirable. For expressing this, I received a number of 'dumb' 'mad at the internet' and 'autistic' ratings. That's okay. I'm not complaining about the ratings system. I want to understand why people rated it that way and if they have good reasons to do so, or they just don't agree with me.

Of course, there are other reasons I don't find Dworkin's claim credible (or rather and more plainly, other reasons why I don't believe her on this). But for the time being I'd like to discuss the questions in my opening paragraph.

 

[Prince Vegeta]

This is pretty hilarious. Your question is that you want to understand why you got downvooted. But you hide it at the bottom of some pseudo intellectual drivel about believing a rape claim based on the attractiveness of the rape victim.

They rated you retarded because you're spazzing about it like a retard. There's the answer.

 

[Izdaja Slika]

This is pretty hilarious. Your question is that you want to understand why you got downvooted.

No. My questions are in the opening paragraph. I made this very explicit.

But you hide it at the bottom of some pseudo intellectual drivel about believing a rape claim based on the attractiveness of the rape victim.

They rated you retarded because you're spazzing about it like a retard. There's the answer.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

 

[Null]

Rape is a crime almost entirely of opportunism and the most frequent victims of rape are the elderly and intellectually disabled who are unable to articulate accusations.

 

[SofondaCox]

If there is a cunt nearby and no witnesses men who are otherwise sane and normal will avail themselves of the opportunity without regard to the external genitalia and life support mechanics. It is not a factor for a rapist.

Source: my eyeballs

 

[Gravekeeper's Vassal]

idk about all that pseudo intellectual niggerbabble, but I do know that barb was a top 1% nastiest looking women and still got raped.

 

[Staticness]

hello baby you are prettier than monitor lizard

 

[Preacher ✝]

OP is a faggot.

 

[Magicicada_septendecula]

With Dworkin, you're talking about an extreme case. Raping her would be a feat that would have required a forklift. In general though, the attractiveness of a woman should never be a factor in judging whether she is being truthful about being raped. Fat, ugly, and otherwise unattractive women are in no less danger than the lingerie model, in fact they may be in more danger because of people believing no one would want them.

I suppose a lot of people think of rape as something that mostly happens when you are walking near an alley at night and some predator jumps you and drags you behind a dumpster to force himself on you. This is probably the rarest kind of rape and to add onto what some have already said about it being a crime of opportunity, it's usually someone the victim knows who has frequent access to and power over the victim. No one wants to believe sweet uncle Frank or respected teacher Mr Jones is that kind of monster, so we create the myth of the stranger alley rapist. Neither uncle Frank nor Mr Jones are going after the future lingerie model, they are going for the more vulnerable, less pretty, less popular girl because she is less likely to say anything or have an ally who will help her.

 

[The Skeksis Emperor]

Is the conventional sexual desirability of a complainant something that influences your belief or disbelief in a rape claim?

No.

whether conventional sexual desirability of a target influences a rapist's choice of target?

It does, but only for some rapists. The issue here is there are different types of rapists. Join me in an autistic discussion, while I curse myself for knowing this.

Serial rapists (psychopaths who target strangers, usually in opportunity crimes) DO select for 'attractiveness', as do serial killers, by the way. For two reasons: 1. They are taking their frustration out on society, and they want a 'trophy', a small thin young woman, because that gives them maximum satisfaction. 2. Small thin girls are easier to manage, drag into the bushes or a car. These men want to feel in control and they don't want hassle, so they ideally go for the 5'2 student and not Andrea Dworkin. These are the types of dude you hear about who rape (and sometimes kill) female joggers, or students walking home alone drunk, for example. They ambush, rape, and then get out. That said, when a guy like that is high up and desperately wants to rape, he'll take whoever he can get.

However, these are not the only rape offenders, they are a small subsection. There are those who rape non-strangers, family members, who date rape, who rape children and babies, and as Null noted, some rapists target the elderly or disabled. Different rapists have different motives and conventional attractiveness doesn't necessary play a role for them. Teenage (budding serial) rapists sometimes target the elderly in their neighbourhood because they are available closeby (when the teen has no car or can't travel) and easier to overpower. Suprisingly often the teen then gets his shit kicked in by the old lady, by the way.

I don't know what happened to Dworkin, I am somewhat doubtful of her stories but I know too little about her to judge. But the answer is no, you don't have be 'hot' to be raped, although being hot can make you a bigger target for some guys.

Edit: Only talking about male rapists here, female offenders also exist but they have different approaches and I'd have to look those up because I don't know them off the top of my head.

 

[Raven of the Burning God]

Rape is a social construct.

Having sex with a woman without her owner's permission while inside the city walls was to risk your own life on the bet that she wasn't a virgin and/or wouldn't call out.

You might rationalize that you'd only make that bet if she was "worth it", but you presumably (hopefully) aren't a rapist.

Criminals often do not think like non-criminals. Non-criminals will consider the cost/benefit analysis of what would happen if their plan fails and they get caught. Criminals don't plan to get caught, so none of that shit matters.

So while you might see a woman you could have sex with without her owner's permission and check whether you're inside the city walls, whether you think anyone would hear her if she raised the alarm, and, yes, whether you thought she was desirable enough to risk it... a criminal might see a woman he could have sex with without her owner's permission and check whether he was horny enough to wanna fuuuck at that moment.

The social construct of rape has changed somewhat since Hammurabi, but the (lack of) thought processes of criminals essentially haven't.

 

[Carmen The Aids Rabbit]

I reckon Bubba in the prison showers would find your ass conventionally attractive, saar.

 

[Anime Waifu NFT collector]

Rape is a crime almost entirely of opportunism and the most frequent victims of rape are the elderly and intellectually disabled who are unable to articulate accusations.

I googled this out of curiosity and it's not true, 3% of rape victims are over 65 years old, meanwhile 69% of victims are between the ages 12 and 34, with the median age being 17.
I'm gonna snopesmaxx and say that the claim that most frequent victims being disabled is mostly true, but not mentally disabled, they were disabled in the meaning that they were in a special bed, wheelchair or used a cane, meaning they were physically much less able to defend themselves, 39% of rape victims had a disability at the time of rape, it is true that the mentally disabled are victims more often per capita, but are not in the majority.

Spoiler: Sources

https://www.cdc.gov/sexual-violence/about/sexual-violence-and-intimate-partner-violence-among-people-with-disabilities.html

https://rainn.org/facts-statistics-the-scope-of-the-problem/statistics-victims-of-sexual-violence/

 

[Izdaja Slika]

It does, but only for some rapists. The issue here is there are different types of rapists. Join me in an autistic discussion, while I curse myself for knowing this.

Serial rapists (psychopaths who target strangers, usually in opportunity crimes) DO select for 'attractiveness', as do serial killers, by the way. For two reasons: 1. They are taking their frustration out on society, and they want a 'trophy', a small thin young woman, because that gives them maximum satisfaction. 2. Small thin girls are easier to manage, drag into the bushes or a car. These men want to feel in control and they don't want hassle, so they ideally go for the 5'2 student and not Andrea Dworkin. These are the types of dude you hear about who rape (and sometimes kill) female joggers, or students walking home alone drunk, for example. They ambush, rape, and then get out. That said, when a guy like that is high up and desperately wants to rape, he'll take whoever he can get.

However, these are not the only rape offenders, they are a small subsection. There are those who rape non-strangers, family members, who date rape, who rape children and babies, and as Null noted, some rapists target the elderly or disabled. Different rapists have different motives and conventional attractiveness doesn't necessary play a role for them.

I wouldn't expect conventional sexual attractiveness to play a role for every kind of rapist, because rape is a sexual crime and men have different sexual tastes. The 'serial rapist' profile fits some of the features of the Dworkin claim but not others.

Teenage (budding serial) rapists sometimes target the elderly in their neighbourhood because they are available closeby (when the teen has no car or can't travel) and easier to overpower. Suprisingly often the teen then gets his shit kicked in by the old lady, by the way.

I am not denying that other characteristics can make someone a more likely target for rape, including vulnerability of the victim and opportunity of the rapist.

I don't know what happened to Dworkin, I am somewhat doubtful of her stories but I know too little about her to judge. But the answer is no, you don't have be 'hot' to be raped, although being hot can make you a bigger target for some guys.

Thank you for responding thoughtfully, which is far more than others have done. But, you are misrepresenting me here. I did not ask the question whether you have to be 'hot' to be raped. I asked different questions.

 

[Stan]

I think the more important issue is (like I said in Stinkditch) you don’t seem to have a very good grasp of Andrea Dworkin’s biography. You said it was a 2000 rape until I corrected you, and didn’t even know about the 1968-71 relationship where she said she was beaten and assaulted numerous times (which, if you understand how time works, would be the likelier source of Dworkin’s opinions on the subject than an assault alleged to have happened in 1999.)

So you don’t know dick about Andrea Dworkin, but let’s not let that stop you from going off half-cocked to another subject: do women have to be hot for you to believe they were raped?

That’s really more of a you question; but you seem to want to parse it so that unattractive (fat/ugly/old/etc) women CANNOT be raped and are NECESSARILY lying if they say they were, and the proof of this is that you don’t think they’re hot enough for their accusations to be credible.

Here’s what I think of the issue. To quote Susan Brownmiller, rape is a conscious process by which all men keep all women in a state of fear. The sex actually isn’t the point, and rape is primarily a crime of power and domination.

The best part for men is that they don’t necessarily have to be rapists to cash in on the fear rape engenders in women. (See: Sargon of Akkad telling Jess Phillips “I wouldn’t even rape you” in a viral tweet.)

I think your need to be able to empirically discard women’s reports of being raped (by filtering them through your “yeah but is she hot enough” heuristic) is similar behavior. You’re doing this to declare yourself as the final authority over something that you really can’t know either way, unless you were in the room.

A similar variation I’ve observed before is that men have a serious problem accepting that women were raped if they are alive at the end of it. For a man to believe a woman was raped, she has to also be killed or beaten within an inch of her life, otherwise the men close ranks around one another and start debating her hotness-rapeability or whether her behavior invited the rape (e.g. by going on a date with the perpetrator, allowing him into her apartment, walking alone at night, wearing makeup/sexy clothes/not covering her hair.)

There’s two problems with that: one, I do not believe there is any behavior or modesty norm a woman could follow that would prevent her from getting raped. One could only leave the house dressed in a burqa and some men would say she was asking for it with her partially obscured eyes. So anti-rape tips like “don’t walk alone at night” and “always go out in the company of a male relative” are at best, incomplete solutions hatched up by men who need to prevent their women from being raped by other men (which they know happens.)

Second, rape is overwhelmingly committed by someone the victim knows well; not the psychopath lying in wait. Most anti rape tips are useless if say, your father/husband/boyfriend is the perpetrator. Authorities write it off as an unprovable he said/she said, unless you turn up at the station with bruises and cuts or your body gets ditched in the woods (in which case, intimate partners are suspect #1…)

So to answer your question: you’re doing this on purpose to remind women that the final decider in whether a rape they report is you, which it isn’t.

 

[Broadside]

Nah whatever fag, Dworkin is a narcissist and exists in an ecosystem where being a victim instantly awards you status. She has every incentive to lie as a result; and given we already know she's mentally unstable (because er, she's a feminist), I think OP having suspicion over her claim is entirely understandable.
But then again, look what men feminists do surround themselves with- male feminists, a demographic renowned for being opportunistic rapists. So who knows?

 

[gagabobo1997]

I'm gonna rape OP because he's fat and ugly so no one will believe him

 

[Raven of the Burning God]

But then again, look what men feminists do surround themselves with- male feminists, a demographic renowned for being opportunistic rapists. So who knows?

The type of guy who reads what feminists have fantasized about men and nods along to himself like "hmmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable" is basically a guaranteed shitheel. Do not leave him unattended around vulnerable people. Hide yo kidz, hide yo wife, etc.

Feminist rape culture is based more-or-less entirely on a mid-1900s study of the instrumentality of homosexual rape between male prisoners convicted of sex crimes to establish and maintain all-male social hierarchy in an institutionalized population. Essentially nothing found there should be expected to apply to normal populations.

But they've been doing it for decades, making their hang-ups, fetishes, and bigotries everybody else's problem.