A Predator's Paradise On the grounds of making California more welcoming to LGBTQ youth, State Senator Scott Wiener is transforming the state

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Abigail Shrier

5 hr ago

This is a long-read, but I think you’ll find that it substantially connects the dots between the legislative efforts that ostensibly are meant to “protect LGBTQ people” and a stunning rise in the exploitation of women and children. In my home state of California, all of these legislative efforts are the brain child of one man, California Scott Wiener. I was fortunate to be able to interview Sen. Wiener for this piece.

If you live in a more sensible state, don’t feel complacent. These ideas are being exported nationally and California’s politicians are explicitly inviting young people—minors—to to flee their home states for California if they can’t get the gender transitions they crave at home.

All of this is done in the name of “LGBTQ,” but kids affiliating with LGBTQ will be among the worst victims.

Thank you, again, for all of your support—and for making this type of work possible. Please share this broadly—it’s free. It’s important that this story is told nationwide.

Much Love,

Abigail


On a Saturday night in South Los Angeles, cars pull up and idle along the side streets of Figueroa, high beams ablaze, so that the drivers can get a good look at “the girls.” The women stand three astride in the middle of the street, in pasties and G-string bikinis under fishnet dresses. Draped over their shoulders are unzipped coats; even in temperate L.A., the night’s January chill is biting. In seven-inch Lucite heels, they teeter toward the driver of each car the way you might walk barefoot across gravel. Less than a block away, their pimps keep company on a sidewalk corner, in hoodies and loose jeans, watching their quarry, awaiting the payout. Absent is the one thing that might typically break up the party: a police car.

In early January, I joined Erin Wilson and Stephany Powell on a tour of “the track” on Figueroa, one of California’s busiest prostitution areas. For decades, Wilson, who volunteers for the anti-trafficking organization Journey Out, and her mother, Powell, have worked to combat human trafficking in Los Angeles and to help women and child victims escape this brutal world.

In our postfeminist era, prostitution is so often idealized—“sex work is work”—that it’s easy to overlook the gruesome reality of what it means to have a pimp, an arrangement closer to slavery than to any legitimate job. “The horror stories I could tell you about [prostitutes] being beaten and being choked and being burned and being gang raped,” said Vanessa Russell of Love Never Fails, an anti-trafficking nonprofit based near Oakland. “And the PTSD and all the mental health, the trauma bonding, the psychotic breaks. Maybe you’re somebody who likes to have sex more than once a day. But nine to 21 times with different guys, some that are like 90 years old that smell?”

“Nine to 21 times over what period?” I ask.

“One day,” she said. “That’s healthy living? I don’t think so. The body is not even made for that. Like the pelvic inflammatory disease that you see.” She ticks off the ways a woman’s body is subjected to microbial assault: the STDs, yeast infections, and UTIs that are frequent among the women she sees. Their hospital records prove, she says, that the human body is “not meant to have that much activity going on. And then the girls that are out there—where they’re being sold—they don’t even get to take showers in between.”

While the last few decades have seen an increase in human trafficking, women at all three of the anti-trafficking groups I spoke with across California agreed: nothing compares with the stunning rise in trafficking they’ve witnessed in recent months. Powell, formerly a sergeant in the Los Angeles Police Department’s Vice Division, knows the city’s streets intimately. Over the last six months, the number of prostitutes has doubled, she says. “On Figueroa, between 68th and 75th, in an hour, you might see about 30 girls out there. Now, you can see 60 to 65 girls in an hour.”

Over the last six months, the number of prostitutes has doubled, Powell says. “On Figueroa, between 68th and 75th, in an hour, you might see about 30 girls out there. Now, you can see 60 to 65 girls in an hour.”

What shifted? The answer, the anti-trafficking advocates told me, is Senate Bill 357. Signed by Governor Gavin Newsom in July, the measure decriminalized loitering with the intent to engage in prostitution. The bill did not officially take effect until January 1 of this year; but, from the moment it became law back in July, these women say, the on-the-ground reality changed. “The minute the governor signed it, you started seeing an uptick on the streets,” Powell said. “And on social media, the pimps were saying: ‘You better get out there and work because the streets are ours.’”

The pimps were right: police stopped making arrests for crimes that would no longer be charged. The anti-loitering statute had provided the grounds for officers to question women and children whom they suspected might be trapped in a prostitution ring. “As a police officer, you need probable cause to stop and investigate,” Powell explained. “So if I have a law that says you can’t loiter in this area, with pasties and a G-string, flagging down cars, I could stop you for that because you’re loitering. But if I just say I’m stopping you because you look kind of young, that’s a little weak. So, it takes away a tool.” Without the statute, police hands were suddenly tied. Henceforth, questioning the girls—and potentially provoking a violent confrontation with pimps—came to seem a Pyrrhic gamble, one that California’s police officers would now avoid.

Prostitution remains illegal in California. But police have lost significant ground in the effort to contain it, women at anti-trafficking nonprofits in the Bay Area, San Diego, and Los Angeles all emphasized. “The only time they have the right to engage and investigate is if they hear the transaction going on between the buyer and the exploited person,” said Russell, who works closely with the Oakland Police Department. “Which means it would have to be a sting operation where there’s an undercover officer posing as an exploitive person who can actually hear the transaction. Any other scenarios would not be grounds for the police to get involved.”

Sergeant Marcos Campos of the Oakland Police Department told me that his force rescued 24 underage girls from the streets in 2021. But in 2022, that number dropped to 14—most from before the law was signed. “Since, I believe, July, when we were officially told it passed, we have been directed by the district attorney’s office to not arrest for [statute] 653.22, which is loitering,” he said.

You might wonder, at this point, who actually benefits from SB 357. Sergeant Campos wonders, too. Not the communities, he said, for whom a rise in trafficking brings more gun violence, which often attends prostitution. Not the sex workers, many of whom rely on police officers for help in escaping their pimps. “I think if anything, it probably helped the sex traffickers the most,” Campos said.

“I think if anything, it probably helped the sex traffickers the most,” said Sergeant Campos of the Oakland PD.

Why would anyone propose such a law? Why would the California State Legislature pass it? I asked the bill’s author, San Francisco–based state senator Scott Wiener. The answer he gave is the one that he supplies for so many of the bills he authors: it was necessary to advance the rights of LGBTQ people. “If you are standing on the sidewalk with high heels, and you wear your hair a certain way, and you wear tight clothing, an officer can say, ‘I think you’re loitering with the intent to commit prostitution’ and arrest you,” Wiener said. “That is not how we should be doing things in the United States of America—arresting people for how they look,” he continued. “And when you do that, not surprisingly, it’s only certain kinds of people who actually get arrested: it’s trans women. It’s black women. . . . It’s an inherently profiling law,” he said. “Randomly arresting a bunch of black trans women for how they look is not protecting potential victims of human trafficking.”

But were the police indeed “randomly arresting a bunch of black trans women”? The anti-trafficking advocates I spoke with dispute this. For starters, Wilson, Powell, and Russell (all of whom are African-American) say that biological women and girls—not transgender individuals—constitute the vast majority of those trafficked. Nearly every report on human trafficking by global human rights organizations confirms this observation.

And if the women I saw on Figueroa are any indication, discerning which are involved in prostitution does not require sophisticated sartorial judgments but only two eyes and a brain. If a woman is wearing a G-string bikini in the middle of the street and if she’s flagging down cars—while men in dark clothes stand watch, as if holding an invisible leash—she is very likely to be a modern-day sex slave.

Russell, who has worked in tech for 20 years, became interested in combating human trafficking while teaching inner-city kids to dance. Twelve years ago, one of her students, aged 15, was raped in Hayward and then trafficked throughout California for about a year. The girl had no mother or father in her life. “She was being raised by family members. And someone did a strategy that’s called ‘Romeo pimping’ to get her to believe that they were her boyfriend. And then they introduced violence into the relationship,” Russell said. “And she ended up being sold by multiple exploiters throughout the Bay Area, in Vallejo, Southern California, and Oakland, and so on.”

Russell started Love Never Fails as part of a rescue mission for girls like her former student. “Twelve years ago, people didn’t even know what [human trafficking] was. There were all these myths about it being something that’s only happening to people from other countries. There were myths about, ‘slavery has ended here.’ And so I think we did a good job of demonstrating that no, it’s alive and well, and it’s happening here in the U.S. Eighty-three percent of all cases [within the U.S.] are of U.S.-born people.”

On my ride-along with Powell and Wilson in Los Angeles, just after 10 p.m.—before “the track” really gets going—I saw several lines of vehicles stretching around the block, each manned by a prospective client, waiting for his chance with one of the girls. At least 35 females worked the lines, most of them white or Latina. Many looked very young—under 18. I identified only one prostitute as transgender, though Powell noted that there were likely others at a second location on Western Avenue. Powell and Wilson told me that the traffic starts to pick up at 11 and peaks at midnight. As the hour neared 11, more and more women indeed appeared along Figueroa. But Powell and Wilson made certain that we left before midnight. After 11:30, the chance of gun violence erupting around the pimps escalates. We wouldn’t be safe.

In Oakland and in the San Diego area, Russell and Marisa Ugarte, a woman who runs an anti-trafficking group out of San Diego County, reiterated that the vast majority of the trafficked are female—African-American women and girls in Oakland, Russell was careful to specify. But there’s another population Russell has seen rise in the last few years among the ranks of the victims: “those that identify as LGBTQIA+.”

But there’s another population Russell has seen rise in the last few years among the ranks of the victims: “those that identify as LGBTQIA+.”

Scott Wiener’s social media antics might invite comparisons with those of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Ilhan Omar. On Twitter, he has posted pictures of himself posing bare-chested at San Francisco’s Folsom Street Fair, arms slung around men in bondage gear. During the monkeypox outbreak last summer, he approvingly tweeted an article encouraging gay men to cover up their bumps with Band-Aids and party on. And he threatened to make “Drag Queen 101” a mandatory part of K–12 education. (He later said that the threat was “tongue in cheek.”) Like other media-adroit, attention-seeking politicians, Wiener seems to delight in trolling his detractors.

Yet in a political era defined by legislative gridlock in Washington, Wiener stands out as one of the nation’s most effective lawmakers. In the six years since the Harvard Law grad took office, he has managed to author, and get passed, a series of radical gender- and sex-related bills. The measures have allowed biological male felons to self-ID their way into women’s prisons; assigned criminal penalties to health-care workers who fail to provide gender-affirming care; made California a “sanctuary state” for LGBTQ youth; expanded access to “gender-affirming care” for LGBTQ-identified youth, with and without parental approval; proposed jail time for health-care workers who “willfully and repeatedly” misgender a patient (i.e., refer to them in a way at odds with their gender identity); decriminalized the intentional exposure of a sexual partner to HIV; and reduced criminal penalties for sex offenders.

In a political era defined by legislative gridlock in Washington, Sen. Scott Wiener stands out as one of the nation’s most effective lawmakers.

Another Wiener bill, introduced in 2021, sought to decriminalize psilocybin and ketamine, but it failed to pass, partly because of the vocal opposition of former state senate Republican Melissa Melendez, who railed against easing restrictions on ketamine, a drug notorious for facilitating date rape. “I’m like, ‘Do you guys not see the agenda here?’ I mean, honestly, in the legislature, I think people came to just sort of accept those types of bills from him because he’s from San Francisco,” she told me in a telephone conversation. Undeterred, Wiener in December reintroduced a modified version of the bill.

In thoroughly blue California, where Democratic lawmakers have, since 2018, enjoyed a veto-proof supermajority in both chambers, Republican legislators are all but irrelevant and Governor Newsom is a legislative show poodle. It’s Wiener who calls the shots. Republicans and centrist Democrats are often frustrated in trying to oppose bills coming from the left.

As both a former senate aide and a California Republican Party strategist told me, Wiener, one of the country’s most prominent and outspoken defenders of LGBTQ rights, is uniquely difficult to oppose. “The moment you speak out against one of his bills, just like he does with me . . . he turns around and says: ‘You’re homophobic or transphobic. You’re this or you’re that,’” Melendez said. “I don’t care. You can call me whatever name you want. That doesn’t change the fact of what your bill does.”

Wiener indeed typically argues that his politically charged gender- and sex-related bills are needed to fight invidious discrimination against LGBTQ people. “When Greg Abbott announced that the State of Texas was going to investigate and prosecute parents who had allowed their trans kids to get gender-affirming care, we knew that we needed to do something,” he said. “And then we saw it started to spread to other states and so we sprang into action and put together [the ‘sanctuary state’ bill] to make clear that if kids did not feel safe in Texas or other states, they could come to California, and we would do our best to protect them.”

But if some of Wiener’s bills seek to protect LGBTQ youth, they also represent a golden opportunity for a different group: adults who would take advantage of them. Wiener “is an extremely dangerous person, [so] extremely dangerous that I cannot believe that people cannot read in between the lines,” said Marisa Ugarte, who runs the anti-trafficking nonprofit, Bilateral Safety Corridor Coalition, based in National City, just south of San Diego. Wiener is turning California, she warned, into “a sex-trafficking paradise.”

Wiener is turning California, Ugarte warned, into “a sex-trafficking paradise.”

Whatever the intent behind many of his bills, this does seem to be their effect: to make life better for sexual predators. Consider the Wiener-authored SB 145, a 2020 measure that amended the sex-offender registration laws in California, so that an adult having anal or oral sex with a minor could avoid getting placed on the sex-offender registry, as long as the child was at least 14 and the adult was no more than a decade older.

Defenders of the law have noted that there has long been judicial latitude in California in whether to place perpetrators of statutory rape on the sex-offender registry, if the crime involved was vaginal intercourse with a minor, the minor was at least 14, and the offender was within ten years of her age. Wiener’s bill extends such potential leniency in sentencing to statutory rape involving anal or oral sex. He has many times defended the bill as required to “end blatant discrimination against LGBT young people regarding California’s sex offender registry,” as his website declares.

“The only thing SB 145 did was to treat LGBTQ young people exactly the same way that straight young people have always been treated on the sex-offender registry, which is, if you’re within a certain age range, and there’s statutory rape that happened, then . . . judges have always had the discretion to decide whether someone should go on the sex-offender registry,” he told me.

Wiener is correct on the history: California law did treat 25-year-old statutory rapists differently, depending on the manner of intercourse that they had with their victim. That discrepancy called out for remediation: the same treatment should apply to anal sex with a minor.

But if the problem is inequality, why not place both sets of offenders on the registry? Why not amend the registry so that a 24-year-old who has sex with a 14-year-old will land on the sex registry, irrespective of whether that statutory rape is anal or vaginal? “My job is to get equality for my community so that these queer kids’ lives aren’t being ruined because of this discrimination,” he replied. “We’re just ending the discrimination. And if someone else wants to go in and try to change a law for everyone, they’re entitled to introduce that bill. No one has done that. All we’re asking for is equal treatment, and that is fundamental fairness. And it is not the gay kids’ responsibility to come in and change the registry for everyone in order to get equality.”

But if some of Wiener’s bills seek to protect LGBTQ youth, they also represent a golden opportunity for a different group: adults who would take advantage of them.

But who exactly are these “queer kids” and “gay kids” he’s talking about? He can’t be referring to the young gay teens who are the victims of felony statutory rape; those minors weren’t being discriminated against by the law—they were being protected by its bright-line insistence that they were sexually off-limits to predatory adults. When he refers to discrimination against “queer kids,” Wiener seems actually to be concerned with the law’s unfairness to the perpetrators of felony statutory rape. That is, he worries about a twentysomething adult—a “kid,” in his turn of phrase—who has sex with a minor.

Many of us would reasonably oppose the prosecution of, say, an 18-year-old high school senior arrested for a consensual sexual encounter with his 16-year-old boyfriend or girlfriend. But in California, that scenario doesn’t describe a felony, and does not require anyone to register as a sex offender. Wiener’s bill deals with older offenders who have sexual relations with 14- or 15-year-old kids. I asked him why those young teens shouldn’t deserve the protection of the law. “Then why aren’t you asking this of any other legislator?” he replied. “I mean, honestly, what you’re doing is you’re saying to the gay people who are just asking to be treated equally: Why don’t you change everything for everyone? And no one’s asking that of any straight legislator.”

The equality argument is Wiener’s classic sleight of hand, and he’s practiced it many times. When he authored the bill to eliminate the felony penalty enhancement for knowingly exposing a sexual partner to HIV, for example, he claimed the mantle of fighting the “discrimination” against those living with the disease. But, as a consequence of the bill, there is now no justice for a gay man infected with HIV by a sex partner who lied about it. The violation of his consent and bodily integrity now go unvindicated. Similarly, the violent reality of today’s pimp-dominated sex trade seems to have escaped Wiener’s legislative pen. As we have seen, the repeal of the anti-loitering statute is a boon to human traffickers, not their victims. “Has Wiener ever been down on Fig?” Powell said, referring to the sex trade on Figueroa. “Has he seen it? I really wonder.”

Nowhere is the disconnect between Wiener’s talk of LGBTQ civil rights and the on-the-ground effects of his bills more obvious than with his “sanctuary state” legislation, SB 107. Enacted in January 2023, the law purported to turn California into a “state of refuge for trans kids and their families,” as Wiener declared on Twitter.

To understand the impact of this law, one should begin with the bill that it amends: California’s Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act (UCCJEA), which deters interstate forum shopping and parental kidnapping by making the jurisdiction in custody disputes the exclusive province of the home-state courts. Forty-nine of 50 states, including California, adopted this rule, voluntarily limiting the jurisdiction of their courts. For example, a father under investigation by Wisconsin Child Protective Services cannot simply flee with his kid to Michigan to have his custody determination adjudicated in a jurisdiction that he considers more favorable.

But Wiener’s sanctuary state bill now amends California’s UCCJEA, to allow California courts to exercise jurisdiction where the parents would otherwise be prosecuted in their home states for having medically transitioned their minor children. A reaction to the laws in various states that have criminalized gender medical treatments on minors, the bill halts the extradition of such parents for these home-state offenses and refuses to cooperate with out-of-state law enforcement for this purpose.

This provision may simply be unconstitutional: California courts’ refusal to cooperate with out-of-state subpoenas and extradition orders in this context may violate the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution, under which states are bound to enforce other states’ court orders. But there is another, arguably more mischievous, provision of the sanctuary state bill. It states: “A court of this state has temporary emergency jurisdiction if the child is present in this state and the child has been abandoned or it is necessary in an emergency to protect the child because the child, or a sibling or a parent of the child, is subjected to, or threatened with, mistreatment or abuse, or because the child has been unable to obtain gender-affirming health care or gender-affirming mental health care” [emphasis added].

Read that carefully: a court may obtain temporary emergency jurisdiction over the care of a child if she has been “unable to obtain” gender-affirming medical care in her home state. The law seems to equate child abuse and neglect with failing to provide gender-affirming medical transitioning procedures to a child. At the very least, the law treats them as equivalent for the purposes of letting the court take jurisdiction over the care of the minor.

Does this bill promise what it plainly seems to—invite runaways to California from across the country to undergo gender medical transition? Does it permit California minors to liberate themselves from their families by coming before a judge, declaring that they have been blocked from obtaining “gender-affirming care” by unsupportive parents, and so escape their parents’ authority? I asked a criminal-law expert with experience working on federal-state joint criminal investigations to interpret the provision for me. “That means the kid is going to come to California and go to some nonprofit, which will bring the kid before the family court. And the court would say: ‘We find you’ve been abandoned, or you’ve been unable to get necessary health care. And so, we’re going to assume custody over you and let you do that,’” she said.

It’s a heckuva carrot to dangle in front of a teenager already fighting with a parent desperate to set limits: come to California, where we have the power to liberate you from possibly the only adults in your life devoted to your best interest—the only reliable source of guardrails, of the unfashionable but sometimes necessary-to-protect-them “no.”

“That means the kid is going to come to California and go to some nonprofit, which will bring the kid before the family court. And the court would say: ‘We find you’ve been abandoned, or you’ve been unable to get necessary health care. And so, we’re going to assume custody over you and let you do that,’” she said.

LGBTQ youth who arrive in California as a result of the bill and join the ranks of the homeless would be vulnerable to traffickers. If you build a “sanctuary state,” those seeking refuge will likely come, even if the refuge they seek is only from their parents’ rules. Homeless youth have long flocked to California. Wiener has helped make the state a magnet for many more.

In 2019, Wiener cosponsored the “LGBTQ Foster Youth Bill of Rights,” another law with disturbing implications. The bill granted LGBTQ-identified foster kids the rights, among other things, to abortions, contraception, and medical treatment for sexual assault, “without the knowledge or consent of any adult.” Included in this bill of new “rights” was this one: “the right to ‘access to computer technology and the internet.’” Suddenly, foster parents found it impossible to police the Internet activity of their foster kids.

The bill’s supporters claim that Internet access allows LGBTQ foster youth to obtain the peer support they need. Such support is necessary, they say, since so many of these kids are extremely vulnerable, lacking intact family. But that same vulnerability should make us extraordinarily wary of government handing numberless adults what amounts to a right of Internet access to these children. After all, so much harm comes to adolescents via fiber-optic cables. Why prevent foster parents—adults the state has at least vetted—from regulating foster kids’ communication with unvetted adults?

As a result of this law, adult sexual predators of all orientations in California gained greater access to child victims. The Internet has become a major tool of traffickers—particularly of boys, Ugarte told me. “Sextortion is the new trend, where there’s an avatar girl, and they befriend a boy, then send them to a chat room. And say: ‘Hey, you know, I like you. Why don’t you let me see your body? I want to see what you look like because you’re so handsome.’ He gets naked. And then once they do that, they go and tell him: ‘If you do not give us $5,000, we’re going to expose you in all the Internet. Meaning, in every single social media.’”

Wiener’s detractors often assign to him malign intentions, but guessing at intent is unproductive. The truth is: his intent doesn’t really matter. The effects of naïveté, ambition, or wrongheaded zeal for social transformation can be just as devastating as anything proceeding from darker motives. “I mean, he’s a smart guy,” a Republican former senate staffer said. On other issues—those that aren’t the hot-button social issues—“he likes to hear opposing opinions and likes to try and address concerns that people may have.” He’s even earned the reputation in San Francisco for being a moderate, supportive of real-estate developers (who have donated handsomely to his campaigns), for instance, and opposing far-leftists on the environment. Wiener is often “statesmanlike” and “easy to get along with,” the GOP staffer told me. And he would present a formidable candidate to replace Nancy Pelosi in the 11th District as her congressional career draws to a close.

But in terms of legislative influence, that would almost certainly be a step down. From his perch in America’s most left-leaning district, Wiener is already legislating for the country, establishing a model for ambitious progressive officeholders to follow, and inviting America’s misunderstood children to flock to the Golden State.

“The sex industry has historically capitalized on people who feel lost, people who feel unloved, people who feel unseen,” Russell observed. “And, you know, they do a great job, especially when they’re in the throes of it, of making that person believe that they’re having a good time. And then later, when they’re more stabilized, they’ll come back and go, ‘Oh my gosh, that was so horrible, it was one of the worst times in my life.’”

Editor’s note: This story will appear in City Journal’s upcoming special issue on California, which will be published in March. Reprinted here with permission from City Journal.
 
In San Francisco? Presa Canarios.


Might be the craziest thing ever to happen in San Francisco, which is saying a lot. Kimberly Guilfoyle was the prosecutor.
The dogs' owner, Paul Schneider, was a high-ranking member of the prison gang the Aryan Brotherhood who was serving a life sentence in Pelican Bay State Prison. Schneider and his cellmate Dale Bretches were attempting to start an illegal Presa Canario dog-fighting business from prison.
You know, something that never seems to come up in death penalty vs. life sentence debates is how easily prisoners can run gangs who commit crimes on their behalf in prison.
 
I think we just need a solid age where "You are an adult and that's the end of it". 18 is supposed to be that age, but you have relatively recent restrictions on drinking/gambling (and in the case of California, smoking). You have every feminist clutching their pearls at the idea of a 35 year old man bedding a college freshman, or Hugh Heffner surrounding himself with 19 year old leotard-donned embodiments of daddy issues, and it's pretty apparent that a large sect of the population doesn't consider 18 year olds "adults" (or at least not 18 year old women).
There's levels of nuance to this. I would say that when it comes to restrictions on things like voting, drinking, gambling, driving, smoking, etc., then anywhere in the range of 16-21 is a reasonable place to have an age limit. To me it seems obvious that giving responsibilities to people in their late teens or early twenties is better for their personal growth and development than wrapping them in cotton wool until their mid-twenties or thirties.

However, I'm also a fan of the "half your age plus seven years rule", at least as a general guideline. Not because to go any younger than that would be grooming, though. The real problem with a 35 year old dating an 18 year old is simply that you're at different stages of life, you're not going to have the same experiences and so you're going to struggle to have much in common. So I do think a relationship with that level of age gap would be inadvisable, but I'm not going to condescend to 18 year olds and say they're incapable of consenting to enter such a relationship.

I honestly just wonder what the childhoods of the people who say this stuff are like. Were they just extremely sheltered and mollycoddled by their parents and so developmentally way behind where they should have been when they were 18 or something?
 
There's levels of nuance to this. I would say that when it comes to restrictions on things like voting, drinking, gambling, driving, smoking, etc., then anywhere in the range of 16-21 is a reasonable place to have an age limit. To me it seems obvious that giving responsibilities to people in their late teens or early twenties is better for their personal growth and development than wrapping them in cotton wool until their mid-twenties or thirties.
Agreed, incremental rights are good for development. I just don't understand the fuss about dating someone "half your age" if everyone involved is a consenting adult, and it would seem like the bulk of the stigma would disappear if the final stepping stone was the age of consent and a few years beyond high school age.
I honestly just wonder what the childhoods of the people who say this stuff are like.
If I'm that "people", latchkey and negligent. But I'm not on trial here, we can all agree that Scott Wiener is a piece of shit that needs to leave office.
 
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We don't allow politicians for the obvious reason of things being bad enough on this forum whenever they're brought up since every single one is some sort of lolcow in one way or another.
Did you forget the Trump lolcow thread?
 
One of the things that is a factor in like, the wisdom of 18 year olds dating 35 year olds is that the other option is 18 year olds dating 18 year olds.

And like either you're the kind of person who gravitates towards creepy assholes or you're not, so if you like creepy assholes, saying you can't or shouldn't date a much older person is not going to stop you from making a bad decision.

However, if you're looking to avoid creepy assholes, it's a lot easier for an 18 year old to pretend not to be a creepy asshole than it is for a 35 year old.

My point is that for someone who is of legal age, you can't pass a law against making bad dating decisions, and if you did, you'd have a lot of young adults incarcerated for dating crimes.
 
My point is that for someone who is of legal age, you can't pass a law against making bad dating decisions, and if you did, you'd have a lot of young adults incarcerated for dating crimes.
Another way of saying this: if being an adult means anything, it means having the absolute right to make objectively terrible decisions.

One of the perceptions we have that often doesn't get more accurate as we get older is the question of who is an adult. The "yeah, it's legal, but still" shit is so tiresome to me, and not because there's not some valuable argument to have there in some cases but because we never consider that the uninvolved party with an opinion on these kinds of situations also has undisclosed motivations. It's flattering to believe twenty five year olds are children if you're in your 30s or 40s. You're not old, you just never understood until now how young 25 is! Please...

Leave people the fuck alone if they're legal adults. You don't know anything about a couple with an age gap, but even if you're right that what they're doing is a bad idea, they're both adults choosing to make a bad decision, and we begrudgingly allow adults to make bad decisions. If you'd look the other way while they smoke and drink, while they choose to go to war or to gamble their savings, then you have no room to speak. And if you would try to negate all those bad choices with the force of law, you're being an authoritarian cunt.
 
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18 seems fine. The uk has various ages for things. AOC is 16. Booze is 18 (or I think 15 if it’s with food in a restaurant?) armed forces is 16. Marriage is 18 - I’ll invoke @Android raptor here because I think this is a positive change. It used to be 16 with parental permission in England but they upped it last year to 18. Child marriage has never been a big problem in modern times and the general vibe o get from this change is that it was needed because many schoolgirls from Muslim communities were getting shipped back to Pakistan to marry much older cousins for chain migration visas.
Scotland still has 16 for marriage no permission needed.
Better than it was before - in the 1750s England changed the law to say that under 21 you needed parental permission to marry and it had to be in church. Scotland still had a system where you could marry by simply declaring in front of witnesses and the legal age was 12 for girls and 14 for boys. (Which is where the cliche of running off to Gretna Green comes from.)
 
18 seems fine. The uk has various ages for things. AOC is 16. Booze is 18 (or I think 15 if it’s with food in a restaurant?) armed forces is 16. Marriage is 18 - I’ll invoke @Android raptor here because I think this is a positive change. It used to be 16 with parental permission in England but they upped it last year to 18. Child marriage has never been a big problem in modern times and the general vibe o get from this change is that it was needed because many schoolgirls from Muslim communities were getting shipped back to Pakistan to marry much older cousins for chain migration visas.
Scotland still has 16 for marriage no permission needed.
Better than it was before - in the 1750s England changed the law to say that under 21 you needed parental permission to marry and it had to be in church. Scotland still had a system where you could marry by simply declaring in front of witnesses and the legal age was 12 for girls and 14 for boys. (Which is where the cliche of running off to Gretna Green comes from.)
I don't agree with it being legal to bang 14 year olds as long as you're 10 or less years older than them but it sounds like the law is just making it equal with existing laws for penis in vagina intercourse (which you'd think would be penalized more given that can cause pregnancy). LGBTQ kids being at high risk of trafficking isn't new, and is the inevitable result of the fact that LGBTQ kids are at particularity high risk of being thrown out on the streets by their parents.

I agree with not arresting hookers since even if they're victims of trafficking, arresting them does fuck all to help them (and just puts them at risk of further harm since cops abusing sex workers happens, plus it makes them more hesitant to come forward when crimes are committed against them). I'd imagine how terrible the economy and inflation and whatnot currently is also plays a role in more people hooking.
 
The Uk has one tolerance zone in Leeds

Wait, what? I just looked this up, and apparently it was in Holbeck, and the scheme was stopped in 2021 (officially, at least) purely due to local protestation. The council/filth were more than happy to keep it going otherwise.

I'm surprised I hadnt heard about this before, what the fuck. I guess I'm unsurprised, as Holbeck/Beeston are shitholes, but still.
 
officially, at least
Yeah it’s still not really stopped. It’s been an absolute mess. Yeah holbeck wasn’t the best area before but it was rough working class, and not like this. There’s been women grabbed off the street (local teacher I think) and cars cruising past offering women pushing prams ‘money for an hour with your baby’
It’s probably the same lot as are creating the problems in Page Hall and Glasgow. Rampant gypsy related human trafficking, plus Pakistani gangs.
It’s not like Holbeck was fancy beforehand but it’s a wreck now. The problems haven’t gone away and the police still don’t come out between 7pm and 7am. Needles and used condoms everywhere.
Local police completely lost the respect of the population.
 
‘money for an hour with your baby’
I don't ever want to hear another snaggletoothed Brit joking about skewl shewtins and priyvat 'elfcayhr. Say what you want about America, but when Nevada legalized prostitution, it was kept to remote, regulated brothels and away from greater civilization (not legal around either Reno or Las Vegas, which are pretty much the only sizeable cities in Nevada). Asking "how much for the little girl" ala Jake Blues is likely to get you shot here.
 
I don't ever want to hear another snaggletoothed Brit joking about skewl shewtins and priyvat 'elfcayhr. Say what you want about America, but when Nevada legalized prostitution, it was kept to remote, regulated brothels and away from greater civilization (not legal around either Reno or Las Vegas, which are pretty much the only sizeable cities in Nevada). Asking "how much for the little girl" ala Jake Blues is likely to get you shot here.
Mate, the absolute state the Uk is in, none of us have the right to badmouth anywhere or anyone.
I could weep when I see the state my country is in. It’s really very upsetting to see.
I saw a documentary about the Nevada brothels and it was pretty sad. There was one girl (a woman over the AOC obviously) who said she was popular because she was petite. It was pretty obvious she was popular because she looked about 13. I wouldn’t legalise brothels or ‘sex work’ anywhere. The percentage of women in the industry who genuinely want to be there must be single disgust and they’re at the high end of the whole thing. Legalising any part just leads to a whole lot of misery. The best way is poor ably to turn a slight blind eye to sole operators and crack down hard on street hooking and pimps.
Not that our glorious leaders want that. Apparently every whore in Central Europe is at the Davos week
 
Let’s face it, at this point of the San Andreas fault line opened up and swallowed Scott Wiener, it’d be a Very Good Thing and nothing of value would be lost, He is to the rights of LGB youth what Arnaud Almeric was to European early medieval Christianity, ‘Kill them all, god will know his own’.
What a piece of shit.
 
Let’s face it, at this point of the San Andreas fault line opened up and swallowed Scott Wiener, it’d be a Very Good Thing and nothing of value would be lost, He is to the rights of LGB youth what Arnaud Almeric was to European early medieval Christianity, ‘Kill them all, god will know his own’.
What a piece of shit.
I will not publicy wish death upon California Senator of the 11th District Scott Wiener, but only god knows if I actually do in private. He does need to leave office and keep his opinions to his "fag-hag" circle, though.

I have no problems with legal adults seeking other legal adults of the same sex to do consentual actions to get their jollies, but this man is poison to my (and many centrists') apathy of hedonism. Do better, San Francisco. Scott Wiener is creating uncomfortable conversations and picking the wrong side every single time. This man is poison to "acceptance".
 
In a political era defined by legislative gridlock in Washington, Sen. Scott Wiener stands out as one of the nation’s most blatantly evil, gay Jew pedophiles.
Fixed for accuracy

@rel=alternate
If you regulate prostitution, there are no longer underage prostitute.
You must be Dutch.
"If we legalise heroin, there won't be any more heroin overdoses. Let's legalise theft and rape too."
Fucking idiot.
 
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Yeah it’s still not really stopped. It’s been an absolute mess. Yeah holbeck wasn’t the best area before but it was rough working class, and not like this. There’s been women grabbed off the street (local teacher I think) and cars cruising past offering women pushing prams ‘money for an hour with your baby’
It’s probably the same lot as are creating the problems in Page Hall and Glasgow. Rampant gypsy related human trafficking, plus Pakistani gangs.
It’s not like Holbeck was fancy beforehand but it’s a wreck now. The problems haven’t gone away and the police still don’t come out between 7pm and 7am. Needles and used condoms everywhere.
Local police completely lost the respect of the population.

I'm surprised I hadnt heard about that abduction, in all honesty. Not to powerlevel; but I'm frequently not too far from the area, though I don't think I've ever been into holbeck proper. Was this somewhat recent?

Pikeys and Pakis are unfortunately a constant reality of the area, and there's an awful lot of organised crime going on, with things seeming to continually deteriorate. It feels like teenaged machete gangs are getting rather more common, with murders starting to happen more frequently even in rather nice areas like Horsforth.
 
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