Debate Otoya and his detractors on whether all knowledge we have comes from God.

[skykiii]

On a separate note, perhaps this should be split into a debate user thread so more people can enjoy Otoya's nonexistent schizophrenia.

Agreed. How do we split it?

 

[Tablet County]

The law would never say that. God teaches protection of children in a lot of places

"What are you talking about? I did eat breakfast this morning."

No, god doesnt determine humans behavior. Your choices determine that. God can see all outcomes, because he exists outside ofntime. But your choices are your own. Again, this is such an odd question to pose, this question is answered in like the first 20 pages of the bible. Adam tried to blame eve for eating the forbidden fruit, didnt hold up, he still made the choice

But if humans are incapable of goodness, what choice could they possibly make that isn't sinful? Worship of god and begging god for forgiveness aren't an inevitability, if that was the case then the unrepentant sinners in Hell would all be saved by the time of the kingdom to come. People have to make the choice to worship god, so obviously choosing to repent and follow god's teachings is a good decision, right? So which is it, are humans incapable of goodness or not?

And this is all going away from my original point that "humans are incapable of goodness" just sounds like an excuse to perform evil deeds.

Agreed. How do we split it?

Talk to mods probably.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

But if humans are incapable of goodness, what choice could they possibly make that isn't sinful?

for example: a nigger cuts you off in traffic. You can kill him. Or you can not kill him. This is your choice.

another example: a hot girl might want to fuck you in a one night stand. You can fuck her. You can choose not to. This isnyour choice

Worship of god and begging god for forgiveness aren't an inevitability,

well sure they arent, thats part of the problem, and is again, a choice. God doesn't force you to do anything. The options and outcomes are presented and well known. The choice is yours.

if that was the case then the unrepentant sinners in Hell would all be saved by the time of the kingdom to come

why? Why do you think they need saving, hell is what they chose

. People have to make the choice to worship god,

exactly.

so obviously choosing to repent and follow god's teachings is a good decision, right?

Yes. But a good decision does not mean you are good. Flying in an airplane doesn't make me a pilot

So which is it, are humans incapable of goodness or not?

Good actions, but without God, there is no good. It's about what's in the heart. Jesus talked about this very topic as well. 2000 years ago. Why are you asking me these things when the answer is in the most widely published and translated book in world history, that also happens to be free?

Actions are not what condemn or save you. We are saved by God's grace, not works. God cares about what is in your heart and mind.

 

[Hungry Fox]

Agreed. How do we split it?

go poke a mod in Talk To Staff.

 

[Tablet County]

for example: a nigger cuts you off in traffic. You can kill him. Or you can not kill him. This is your choice.

another example: a hot girl might want to fuck you in a one night stand. You can fuck her. You can choose not to. This isnyour choice

But what if you did kill that nigger, or what if you did fuck that hot girl? Are these forgivable sins in the eyes of god?

why? Why do you think they need saving, hell is what they chose

You missed the point. I was saying that if penance was an inevitability, then they would be saved because of their penance. But it's ultimately irrelevant, so whatever.

Good actions, but without God, there is no good. It's about what's in the heart. Jesus talked about this very topic as well. 2000 years ago. Why are you asking me these things when the answer is in the most widely published and translated book in world history, that also happens to be free?

I was asking you because as far as I know Jesus does not have an account on this website, nor is he posting in this thread proclaiming that mankind is incapable of goodness.

 

[skykiii]

go poke a mod in Talk To Staff.

Did so, though I forgot to mention any mod by name when I did. Hope I didn't just f--k up.

In any case I will not be engaging with Otoya until/unless the split happens. So I hope it happens soon.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

But what if you did kill that nigger, or what if you did fuck that hot girl? Are these forgivable sins in the eyes of god?

Are you remorseful?

You missed the point. I was saying that if penance was an inevitability, then they would be saved because of their penance. But it's ultimately irrelevant, so whatever.

It's not irrelevant, it's a choice. I didn't miss the point, that IS THE POINT

I was asking you because as far as I know Jesus does not have an account on this website, nor is he posting in this thread proclaiming that mankind is incapable of goodness.

Well no, he proclaimed it with his words and told his homies to tell everyone else. Again, the book is literally everywhere. Im.just the middleman at this point it seems

In any case I will not be engaging wiwh Otoya

Wise choice, you're really bad at this shit

 

[Tablet County]

Are you remorseful?

I asked what if you did these things, not me. I wouldn't do either of those things in the first place because I'm not unhinged enough to murder some guy for cutting me off in traffic and I value intimacy too much to fuck some random chick for purely physical reasons.

It's not irrelevant, it's a choice. I didn't miss the point, that IS THE POINT

No you dumbass it's irrelevant because you'd already given reason for it to not be relevant, but since you bring it up.

hell is what they chose

What if they didn't believe in Hell? Pascal's Wager doesn't work on people who simply don't believe. Is ignorance enough of an evil act that even those in hell can't be forgiven?

Well no, he proclaimed it with his words and told his homies to tell everyone else. Again, the book is literally everywhere. Im.just the middleman at this point it seems

I sincerely doubt your adherence to scripture is nearly as airtight as you seem to think it is. As a human being, your interpretation of the scripture can be flawed, so I'm asking you and not Jesus, because I could theoretically ask God about this stuff whenever I want.

If I'm to be honest, you strike me as the kind of person who is incapable of self-governing. Somebody who needs an outside influence to determine your moral actions for you. If the only reason you do good it out of fear of punishment then what you're doing is pragmatic and has no basis in morality. You would fail the shopping cart test.

But hey—that's just a theory. A RETARD THEORY.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

I asked what if you did these things, not me. I wouldn't do either of those things in the first place because I'm not unhinged enough to murder some guy for cutting me off in traffic and I value intimacy too much to fuck some random chick for purely physical reasons.

Same

What if they didn't believe in Hell?

Then they go there

Pascal's Wager doesn't work on people who simply don't believe

facts don't care about your feelings. For centuries people thought the sun went around the earth. Regardless of the belief, the earth still went around the sun, right

Believing hell doesnt exist doesnt mean it stops existing lol

I sincerely doubt your adherence to scripture is nearly as airtight as you seem to think it is.

i bet lol

As a human being, your interpretation of the scripture can be flawed,

exactly. I dont have an interpretation, ive only been telling you whats in the book. The bible isnt really open to interpretation. I have ny own thoughts an ideas about some things in it, about the church. Etc.. but I have not shared any opinions about the bible with you.

Human interpretation CAN be flawed, so i follow the word, not any interpretation

so I'm asking you and not Jesus, because I theoretically ask God about this stuff whenever I want.

Maybe you should be consulting God. If you feel I'm lying to you, why not ask God?

If I'm to be honest, you strike me as the kind of person who is incapable of self-governing

No, everyone is self governing. I've said this multiple times already.

. Somebody who needs an outside influence to determine your moral actions for you.

Lol what? Every person determines their moral actions. I'm no exception.

If the only reason you do good it out of fear of punishment then what you're doing is pragmatic and has no basis in morality. You would fail the shopping cart test.

It's not fear of punishment. I eat food because I like food, not out of fear of starvation. There is no punishment, only cause and effect. Hell is not a punishment, it's a choice.

 

[skykiii]

Wise choice, you're really bad at this shit

Yeah, that's why I'm the one being dogpiled OH WAIT.

Seriously dude, several times you've resorted to the equivalent of covering your eyes and then saying "I don't see it, therefore it must not exist!" and blatant lies (I thought lying was sinful?) to get out of a whupping.

facts don't care about your feelings. For centuries people thought the sun went around the earth. Regardless of the belief, the earth still went around the sun, right

Funny, you acknowledging this contradicts the very beginning of Genesis, which outright claims that God created the Earth before the Sun.

It also claims that the Earth is basically an air pocket in between bodies of water, so....

Human interpretation CAN be flawed, so i follow the word, not any interpretation

..... Except words (including The Word) by default is open to interpretation. That's the basis of communication. Just another dumbass thing you said that makes no fucking sense.

 

[Grub]

. The bible isnt really open to interpretation

The Bible has literally been translated and retranslated and interpreted hundreds of times over the centuries. We don't even have anything close to the original copies.

Which version is it in particular that is your definition of the absolute word of God?

I mean there's 150 different translations on this site alone

https://www.biblegateway.com/Versions/

 

[Tablet County]

Same

I'm glad to see you would fail the breakfast question as well.

facts don't care about your feelings. For centuries people thought the sun went around the earth. Regardless of the belief, the earth still went around the sun, right

Believing hell doesnt exist doesnt mean it stops existing lol

That's a great answer to a question I didn't ask. I asked "Is ignorance enough of an evil act that even those in hell can't be forgiven?" I didn't ask "well if hell exists then why don't people believe in it

"

No, everyone is self governing. I've said this multiple times already.
Lol what? Every person determines their moral actions. I'm no exception.

I would mention psychopaths but I get the feeling you don't believe they exist or think they're the result of demons.

Hell is not a punishment, it's a choice.

Well now you're arguing semantics.
If Hell is the end result of evil decisions where you are cast to because of your unrepentant sin then, yeah, it is a punishment.

(Had to repost because my stupid ass posted in the wrong thread.)

EDIT: And AGAIN... none of this has to do with the part where I said that "humans are incapable of goodness" sounds like an excuse to be evil.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Yeah, that's why I'm the one being dogpiled OH WAIT.

Seriously dude, several times you've resorted to the equivalent of covering your eyes and then saying "I don't see it, therefore it must not exist!" and blatant lies (I thought lying was sinful?) to get out of a whupping.

i didnt lie about anything nd ive directly and addressed everything

Funny, you acknowledging this contradicts the very beginning of Genesis, which outright claims that God created the Earth before the Sun.

um...one revolving around the other has nothing to do with when they were created. the earth revolving around the sun does not give any indication on time

It also claims that the Earth is basically an air pocket in between bodies of water, so....

it does. the sky is made of water

..... Except words (including The Word) by default is open to interpretation.

said who?

if i say "my cat is black", is that open to interpretation?

 

[Tablet County]

the sky is made of water

Do you mean this in a metaphorical sense, in that there's water in the atmosphere and clouds are water vapor, or are you saying that the hebrew conception of the cosmos is the real one?

 

[AgendaPoster]

Mr. Yamaguchi is not debatable, his esoteric knowledge is not bound to this earthly realm

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

The Bible has literally been translated and retranslated and interpreted hundreds of times over the centuries. We don't even have anything close to the original copies.

yes we do. there havent been any manuscripts found for any book that is at odds with what we have. there have been no copies of any manuscript found that differs from the rest OR from what we have translated in our hands today

every manuscript/copy we hve found is identical to the others of the same area and period. there are some grammatical differences because greek, english and hebrew have different grammatic rules, and occasionally you'll find a "but" in the place of a "however" and that kind of thing....but the text is the same.

te case for "retranslated and interpreted" only can be made if you find a manuscript that differs from the rest. so far, none has been found. what i mean is there are about 5000 complete copies of the Book of Isaiah. Every single one is identical. if you want to start on the "retranslated" case, where are the different copies that suggest that.

your position is further wrecked by the discovery of the dead sea scrolls

I mean there's 150 different translations on this site alone

those arent different translations. the URL itself you posted says VERSION

If i say CAT and GATO, this isnt a different version or translation. these are two words describing the same thing, in this case, an object, a cat.

the OT and the NT were written in hebrew (mostly) and greek respectively. everything is translated from that, and all translations say the same thing.

Do you mean this in a metaphorical sense, in that there's water in the atmosphere and clouds are water vapor, or are you saying that the hebrew conception of the cosmos is the real one?

the hebrew conception of the cosmos is congruent with what science and observation have confirmed. science proves god.

 

[Tablet County]

Mr. Yamaguchi is not debatable, his esoteric knowledge is not bound to this earthly realm

Yep, I'm getting that impression.

the hebrew conception of the cosmos is congruent with what science and observation have confirmed. science proves god.

So far I've been arguing with you as if we were on a level playing field, but I was wrong. It turns out you are either on a plane of intellect that is beneath my own, or you are a master baiter, in which case I've had my ruse cruise, and now I want off.
Good luck in life, I hope god forgives you for being retarded.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

I'm glad to see you would fail the breakfast question as well.

breakfast question?

I asked "Is ignorance enough of an evil act that even those in hell can't be forgiven?" I didn't ask "well if hell exists then why don't people believe in it

right, but you dont get to dictate the answer to the question. ignorance is forgiven IF you eventially wake up. but if you know hell exists, because literally everything told you this from birth, and you defy/ignore it or whatever, then thats the road you choose

I would mention psychopaths but I get the feeling you don't believe they exist or think they're the result of demons.

psychopaths are self-governing too. suggesting their not actually implies posession, which is not a position i agree with. everyone is accountable for their own actions, no outside force makes choices for someone. youre on kiwifarms. a site that constantly get ssued because retards think KF member made others kill themselves. you cant be this un-self-aware.

If Hell is the end result of evil decisions where you are cast to because of your unrepentant sin then, yeah, it is a punishment.

its not a punishment if you choose it. if you choose it, then it's a reward, yes?

if youre given a choice between a snowy place and a desert and you coose the snowy place, being cold is not your punishment. you made that choice, no one is punishing you.

EDIT: And AGAIN... none of this has to do with the part where I said that "humans are incapable of goodness" sounds like an excuse to be evil.

i told you a couple times now there is no excuse for evil. the choice will always be presented, that's life ouitside the Garden, thats the environment we're in. but no one forces you to choose that path

So far I've been arguing with you as if we were on a level playing field, but I was wrong. It turns out you are either on a plane of intellect that is beneath my own, or you are a master baiter, in which case I've had my ruse cruise, and now I want off.
Good luck in life, I hope god forgives you for being retarded.

come on, what happened to trusting the science, comrade?!

5000 years ago god told you the sky was water, and then we find out the sky was water, and somehow I'm the retard? ok lol

Mr. Yamaguchi is not debatable, his esoteric knowledge is not bound to this earthly realm

nothing esoteric about. its all right in front of your face in black and white. in any language you want. for free, on the internet or every library on earth. for 6000 years. what is esoteric about any of this lol

 

[Tablet County]

come on, what happened to trusting the science, comrade?!

5000 years ago god told you the sky was water, and then we find out the sky was water, and somehow I'm the retard? ok lol

Gimme the science friend. I'm ready to take the Guchi Vaccine.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Gimme the science friend. I'm ready to take the Guchi Vaccine.

5000 years ago god told you the sky was water, and then we find out the sky was water