The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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The common narrative of the Holocaust is that the Nazis killed intentionally millions of people which is estimated to be 6 million people. To deny or change that number, literally makes you a holocaust denier. No matter how accurate you are. I'm not entirely serious about the label, but I am serious about pointing out how stupid the narrative is and how easy it is to accidently revise.
If that was the case, then why are there multiple historians who believe 5 million died who are still very well respected? Raul Hilberg, for example, thought about 5 million were killed, then defended his position again in his second book. Another historian, Wolfgang Benz, believed the number to be between 5 to 6 million. Yad Vashem literally says this regarding the numbers

“All the serious research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million.”

5 million, 6 million, doesn’t make you a denier

Maybe 4 million does, but it probably depends on how you get the number.

Either way, your point makes no sense
 
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I think that we can all agree that no one here is going to change their minds? So, to make this thread interesting I propose that instead of debating the existence of the Holobunga, we should instead plan the execution, of - another if you're a believer, or the first if you're not - Holocaust.

That way, we can all come together and use the Nazis own material to help us prepare for any shortfalls that made the actual Holocaust fail so badly, that the intended matzahs in the oven were instead given control of their own nation. I'll start us off
- Suggestion 1: Don't lose the war.

Any further input?
Rather than several camps, I would propose only one. Instead of allegedly gassing with a delousing agent, just throw them in a fucking hole. Cover the hole using a bulldozer. Less resources involved. Yes, it's a mass grave but as Johan said above, don't lose the war. Said camp would have several holes, and they could cycle through them. Efficient. To solve the problems of the Einsatzgruppen (re: shooting people damaging the units) equip the bulldozer drivers with noise-cancelling headphones perhaps playing propaganda or Metallica's "Creeping Death". Or hire Mexicans.
 
Efficient
Yeah so is gassing people in enclosed spaces. I think the argument is over whether they would have destroyed the bodies or not to prevent Soviet photographers from revealing killing sites hundreds of times bigger than Katyn, not to mention ones primarily consisting of clearly identifiable women and children.
wikipedia has more info about this location
I did some follow up research on corpse incineration but couldn't find much, other than references in Polish. Yet the note about incinerated corpses was there in 2015

Christopher Browning has this to say about the site from his book from 2010
The Jews of Płock were taken on a short trip northward to a transit camp at Soldau (now Dzialdowo), on the old Polish–East Prussian border. Memories differ starkly on the form of transportation: clearly, most remember traveling by truck,16 but three individuals remember going by truck to the station and then by three distinctly different forms of rail travel —a passenger train,17 a train packed so tightly that infants were crushed,18 and an open train car in the midst of winter cold.19 Soldau was a notorious camp, converted from an old army barracks that served not only as a transit camp for German expulsion measures but also as a minor killing center. Some 1,000 political prisoners and 1,558 mentally ill patients perished there, the latter in the improvised gas van of the itinerant “euthanasia” Sonderkommando (special commando) under Herbert Lange, on loan from Poznán. (This was the unit that subsequently founded the Chelmno death camp near Łód ).20

How do we know about these numbers or method of killing, eg the 1,588 mentally ill patients? whose remains may have just been located

HC blog has some material about the killing in their article on SK Lange

witness statement:
1658202291271.png


And document (#2, scroll down). Note the obvious use of coded language. This is the why the complaints of deniers are so silly. I was just following footnotes and such and ran into this.

1658201790749.png


EDIT:

news of the discovery of the ash is causing restlessness among the inmates of CODOH

poster 'Mongol' does some extensive research here and points to a reference about body destruction at this location found in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book.
1658208490770.png


Mongol suspects the Soviets did it, but as @History Speaks pointed out, unlike Katyn this area wasn't under Soviet control until 1945, so the allegation would be the Soviets killed some people soon after they arrived, destroyed the bodies, and then coerced a witness into drawing attention to it.
 
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I come back and I see nothing's changed.
we're still having pearl clutching and now something about declaring Fatwa on muslims?

Edit: We also got a new user that only joined to post here, lol what a gay.
 
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I come back and I see nothing's changed.
we're still having pearl clutching and now something about declaring Fatwa on muslims?

Edit: We also got a new user that only joined to post here, lol what a gay.
Arguing is fun, and holocaust debates always get a bit heated. That’s why I joined.
 

LMAO


Literally from your your own side.

Anyway, so you checked their sources and agreed. Did you check the counter argument? Why not?


Because the surviving Jewish community objected to having their relatives remains fucked around with any more.


That's not at all what it's about. You are just making a fool of yourself. You need to read a 500 word paper that absolutely roasts your favorite fap author, Mr. Mattogno, and get back to me after that about how dishonest, ignorant, and misleading these Holocaust denying academics are.

Uh...... so what? They don't even know who's supposedly down there.

Look what happened to the holocaust when someone drilled Belzec or Sobibor. No wonder no one is allowed to drill Treblinka.

So, wait. We need to read the 500 word paper then post something like;

" yeah Stan, turns out you were right..... about everything. This paper set it all straight for me. "

Is that it?


Because the surviving Jewish community objected to having their relatives remains fucked around with any more.


That's not at all what it's about. You are just making a fool of yourself. You need to read a 500 word paper that absolutely roasts your favorite fap author, Mr. Mattogno, and get back to me after that about how dishonest, ignorant, and misleading these Holocaust denying academics are.

Uh...... so what? They don't even know who's supposedly down there.

Look what happened to the holocaust when someone drilled Belzec or Sobibor. No wonder no one is allowed to drill Treblinka.

So, wait. We need to read the 500 word paper then post something like;

" yeah Stan, turns out you were right..... about everything. This paper set it all straight for me. "

Is that it?

I come back and I see nothing's changed.
we're still having pearl clutching and now something about declaring Fatwa on muslims?

Edit: We also got a new user that only joined to post here, lol what a gay.

This will continue until hoaxers read revisionism as we do orthodoxy. Until then they remain lolcows.
 
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Anyway, so you checked their sources and agreed. Did you check the counter argument? Why not?
yeah I read the "counter argument". He says two sentences about how forgeries were discovered by "technical experts" but does not provide any evidence of this (hmmm)

HC blog posted a discussion which shows the reason for their removal

1658228002781.png


HC blog's first post
 
You must really love Hitler. Do you have one of those body pillows with his face on it?
Hey guys they found some objects held by people at a transit camp and also some tiles. This is the smoking gun we needed. What do you mean where are the millions of tons of ash required to cremate them all, we've got these sacred artifacts!

Jesus you really are fucking stupid. Is your masters in being retarded?
Why would dozens of women have left their wedding Rings behind at a transit camp genius? They put them in hiding places them before going to the gas chamber and were unable to retrieve them because they were DED

Also, they found the borders of the mass graves and analyzed them using some noninvasive methods and core drills. The team stopped doing that because some Orthodox Rabbis complained that they were disturbing the remains.

My masters is in Engineering and Materials Physics.
 
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Uh...... so what? They don't even know who's supposedly down there.
Are you seriously suggesting that the ashes and cremains of every Holocaust victim must be conclusively identified? Giant piles of cremains buried underground and confirmed using core drills and noninvasive methods isn’t super fucking sus to you??

No, Im going to read this 500 page paper and smack you upside the head with some choice quotes if you even mention charlatans like Mattogno as “foremost academics” again, mouthbreather
 

AN EYEWITNESS TO GASSINGS AT BELZEC (1942) (ARCHIVE)

Kurt Gerstein was a Schutzstaffel (SS) Obersturmfuhrer (lieutenant) who in 1942 witnessed the gassings of Jews at Belzec concentration camp, in the far east of Poland. The method used at this time was diesel fumes. Gerstein gave this testimony to Allied authorities on May 1945, just a few days after the end of the war. (Warning: this document contains graphic and potentially disturbing information).

“The next day we went to Belzec. A small station had been built especially for this purpose on a hill just north of the Lublin-Lemberg Chaussee in the left corner of the demarcation line. South of the road some houses with the notice ‘Sonderkommando der Waffen-SS’. As Wirth, the actual head of the whole killing installations was not yet there, Glafcoenik introduced me to SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer [captain] Obermeyer. The latter only let me see that afternoon what he had to show me. I did not see any dead that day, but in the hot August weather the whole place smelt like the plague and there were millions of flies everywhere.
Right by the small two-track station, there was a large shed, the so-called cloakroom, with a large counter where valuables were handed over. Then there was a room containing about 100 chairs—the barber’s room. Then an outdoor path under birch-trees, with a double barbed-wire fence on the left and right, with the sign: ‘To the inhalation centre and bathrooms’. In front of us a sort of bath-house with geraniums, then a few steps, and then three rooms each on the right and left, with wooden doors like garages. In the rear wall, hardly visible in the darkness, large sliding doors. On the roof, as a ‘witty little joke’, the Star of David. In front of the building a notice: Heckenholt Institute. More than that I was not able to see that afternoon.
Shortly before seven the next morning I was informed: “The first transport is coming in ten minutes!” The first train from Lemberg did, in fact, arrive in a few minutes: 45 wagons containing 6700 people, of whom 1450 were already dead on arrival. Children were looking out from behind the barred windows, their faces dreadfully pale and frightened, their eyes filled with the fear of death, besides men and women. The train came into the station and 200 Ukrainians tore open the doors and drove people out of the wagons with their leather whips. A big loudspeaker gave further instructions: undress completely, take off artificial limbs, spectacles, etc. Give up valuables at the counter without credit notes or receipts. Tie shoes together carefully (for textile salvage), otherwise in the pile of shoes, which was a good 25 m. high, no-one could have found a pair that matched.
Then the women and children went to the barber who cut off all their hair with two or three chops with the scissors and stuffed it into potato sacks. “That is put to some special use in U-boats—for caulking or something like that,” the SS Corporal on duty told me. Then the procession started to move. With a lovely young girl at the front, they all walked along the path, all naked, men, women and children, without their artificial limbs.
I stood with Hauptmann Wirth up on the ramp between the chambers. Mothers with their babies at the breast came up, hesitated, and entered the death chambers. A sturdy SS-man stood in the corner and told the wretched people in a clerical tone of voice: “Nothing at all is going to happen to you! You must take a deep breath in the chambers. That expands the lungs. This inhalation is necessary because of illnesses and infection.” When asked what was going to happen to them, he answered: “Well, of course, the men must work, building houses and roads, but the women don’t have to work. Only if they want to, they can help with the housework or in the kitchen.”
This gave some of these poor people a glimmer of hope that lasted long enough for them to take the few steps into the chambers without resisting. [But] the majority realised—the smell told them what their fate was to be. So they climbed the steps and then they saw everything. Mothers with babies at the breast, naked little children, adults, men, women – all naked. They hesitated, but they went into the gas chambers, pushed on by those behind them, or driven in by the leather whips of the SS. Most of them without saying a word. A Jewess of about 40, with eyes blazing, called down upon the heads of the murderers the blood being spilt here. Hauptmann Wirth personally gave her five or six lashes in the face with his riding-whip. Then she too disappeared into the chamber.
Many people were praying. I prayed with them. I pressed myself into a corner and cried aloud to my God and to theirs. How gladly I would have gone with them into the chambers. How gladly I would have died their death with them. Then they would have found a uniformed SS officer in their chambers. The matter would have been treated as a case of death by misadventure and dealt with: missing presumed dead, unheralded and unsung. But I could not do that yet. First I had to make known what I had seen here.
The chambers filled. Cram them well in, Hauptmann Wirth had ordered. People were standing on each other’s feet. 700-800 on 25 square metres, in 45 cubic metres! The SS forced as many in together as was physically possible. The doors closed. Meanwhile, the others were waiting outside in the open air, naked.
Now, at last, I understood why the whole installation was called the Heckenholt Institute. Heckenholt was the driver of the diesel engine—a minor technician who was also the builder of this institute. The people were to be killed with diesel exhaust fumes. But [for a time] the diesel did not work. Hauptman Wirth came; he was obviously embarrassed this had to happen on the very day that I was there. Yes, I saw everything. And I waited. My stop-watch had recorded it all well. After 50 minutes, the diesel did not start. The people were waiting in the gas chambers. We heard them weeping, sobbing… Hauptmann Wirth struck the Ukrainian who was supposed to be helping Heckenholt mend the diesel. The whip hit him in the face 13 or 14 times.
After 2 hours 49 minutes — the stop-watch had recorded it all well — the diesel started. Up till then, people were alive in these four chambers, four times 750 people in four times 45 cubic metres. Another 25 minutes went by. True, many were now dead. One could see that through the little glass window through which the electric light lit up the chamber for a moment. After 28 minutes only a few were still alive. At last, after 32 minutes everyone was dead. Men of the Work squad opened the wooden doors from the other side. They, Jews themselves, had been promised their freedom and a certain percentage of all valuables found in payment for the ghastly duty they performed.
The dead were standing upright like basalt pillars, pressed together in the chambers. There would not have been room to fall down or even to bend over. One could tell the families, even in death. They were still holding hands, stiffened in death so that it was difficult to tear them apart in order to clear the chamber for the next load. The corpses were thrown out — wet with sweat and urine, soiled with excrement and menstrual blood on their legs. Children’s bodies flew through the air. There was no time to lose. The whips of the Ukrainians whistled down on the backs of the work squad. Two dozen dentists opened the mouths with hooks and looked for gold. Gold on the right, without gold on the left. Other dentists used pliers and hammers to break gold teeth and crowns out of the jaws…
The naked corpses were carried in wooden barrows just a few metres away to large pits. After some days the putrefying bodies swelled up and then, a short time later, collapsed violently so that a new batch could be thrown on top of them. Then 10 centimetres of sand was strewn over it so that only a few single heads and arms stuck out. In one of these spots, I saw Jews clambering about on the corpses in the pits and working. I was told that by an oversight those who were already dead when the transport arrived had not been undressed. Because of the textiles and valuables, which they would otherwise have taken with them to the grave, this had, of course, to be rectified.
Nobody took any trouble either in Belzec or in Treblinka to record or count those who were killed. The figures were only estimates based on the capacity of the wagons…”
 

STANISLAW SMAJZNER DESCRIBES THE JOURNEY TO SOBIBOR (1942) (ARCHIVE)​

In 1942, Stanislaw Smajzner and his family were herded onto trains by the SS and shipped to the Sobibor death camp. Here, Smajzner describes the journey to Sobibor:

“We arrived at the station of Naleczow. They caged us inside a plot of land surrounded with barbed wire, as if we were animals, without water or food. Eating and drinking to their heart’s content, the German jackals delighted in sarcastically staring at us, while we sank in the pain and worry which the death of so many of ours had caused us. Only then could we check the tragic account of casualties, we gathered in small groups made up of several families that existed there with the aim of counting how many were no longer with us. Nearly all the families had been deprived of some loved ones who lay on the long road from Opole Lubelskie to Naleczow.

I saw many Poles come near the wire fence to sell bottles and pitchers of water. Taking advantage of our anxiety they were demanding and would only give us the water in exchange for a gold wedding ring, a watch or some other valuable thing. Many Jews had been able to keep, through all those long months, precious belongings hidden from the plundering Nazis. However, in a few minutes, they had to hand them all over to the voracious Poles for little more than a carafe of water which should never be denied, even to a dog.

I came then to understand that they had gotten used to making money out of the misfortune of others since the former groups had passed that way some time ago. They belonged to the same class of toadies who had taken delight in the unhappiness, which assailed us over the long walk to Naleczow. They tried to exchange water for gold, nuzzling in the murk of their own misery, instead of doing the same thing that their countrymen in the Polish Brigade had done only a little earlier in Torbruk, when they helped in the epic defence of that military stronghold in the African desert, against the long and unsuccessful first attack of Rommel’s troops.

It was May 11th 1942 and when night fell most of us were hungry and thirsty and the only thing we heard was the weeping of our women and children. Some chanted the Kaddish – the Jewish prayer for the dead – for those who were gone forever. And thus we spent the night, all of us lying on the ground in the open air and although we were absolutely worn-out with tiredness and suffering we could not sleep.

Before daybreak, the guards entered the enclosure to put us in rows once more. When this was done, we were led to the station platform under strong escort. When we got there we saw a freight train waiting for us: all its wagons were totally closed and had very little airing. They had sliding doors which were locked from the outside. Shouting and pushing, they threw us into the wagons until they were saturated with Jews. A minimum of 100 people were put inside each one of them under conditions which would not be proper even if the cargo had been swine.

When the whole bunch of people was crowded inside the cattle wagons we heard a shrill whistle, and then the train whistle which preceded departure. With the train at full speed, the constant shaking of the wagons made the situation inside reach a state of unbelievable panic and despair. I have no words to exactly describe what happened in that hell. Children were stifled to death, thrashing about frantically, trying to breathe some oxygen which would keep them alive. Old people were trampled and pressed in all possible ways, women some of them pregnant were suspended in the air, without ever being able to set foot on the floor, as they were crushed by the heavy crowd which oscillated from one side to the other, like a pendulum, following the swing of the wagons which ran very fast.

The almost total lack of air made the heat become torrid and the thirst unbearable. There was no water or toilets and many relieved themselves right there. Dizziness and fainting came in quick succession and the turmoil got worse by the minute and no solution was found to all of that. Once in a while, the train would stop but we did not see or were told anything. In these short moments, the only hope we had was that they would open the doors and let us breathe some air which we so badly needed. However, this did never happen. Another whistle, another train whistle and the convoy would continue its ruthless course. Each minute the number of corpses grew at our feet, although some of the dead were held upright by the pressure of our bodies, so crowded were we. The smell of sweat, urine and faeces mixed in a nauseating odour which actually transformed the wagon into a sewer.

The day before we had travelled from Opole to Naleczow. We had been up the whole night, near the station. Now we faced unprecedented ordeals, unparalleled up to that moment. Thirst tormented us more than hunger, and a single drop of water would be more precious to us than a diamond of the same size. We were not able to even squat and whoever tried it was trampled. We had to stand and the sea of filth grew bigger at our feet, and we went on and on like this for the whole day, locked inside the wagons, as if we were real beasts, in a stifling nauseating place, filled with dead bodies and putrid air. To add the finishing touch to the gruesome picture once in a while we would hear shots fired by the German soldiers who were on the outside of the convoy. They did that to make our terror even worse.

Some of us tried to open the door with the help of knives and pocket knives but with no success, since the door was very strong, and was tightly closed. Many came to the point of using their own nails. In a desperate attempt to rip the boards off the side of the wagon, to get some air to breathe.

The only ventilation we had come through a small window closed by iron bars intertwined with barbed wire, and the air was not enough for the needs of a hundred people. We could do nothing with pocket knives or nails, the heat was increasingly more stifling and the air more difficult to breathe. I do not believe that even the slaves dragged away from Africa by the slave traders ever suffered so much, with the only exception of the length of the trip. The human mind cannot accept that this could have ever been done, in the middle of the twentieth century, against rational beings, when these medieval methods had already been banned for a long time before the Nazis made them come to life again.

Our family gathered somewhere inside the wagon and all of us made superhuman efforts to stay upright. Some were young and were successful, but my father and especially my mother could only manage it at the cost of tremendous exertion. Many times only the pressure of the crowd did not let them fall. Uncontrollable revolt still fills me when I remember them and what they had to suffer due to the bestial inhuman Germans.”
 

HEINRICH HIMMLER’S SPEECH AT POSEN (1943) (ARCHIVE)

This extract is from a speech delivered by Heinrich Himmler to SS officers and NSDAP officials at Posen in October 1943. In this speech, Himmler mentions “the extermination of the Jewish people”, describing it as a “most difficult task” to be conducted “out of love for our own people”:

“I want to mention another very difficult matter here before you in all frankness. Among ourselves, it ought to be spoken of quite openly for once – yet we shall never speak of it in public.

Just as little as we hesitated to do our duty as ordered on June 30th 1934, when we placed comrades who had failed against the wall and shot them, just as little did we ever speak of it, and we shall never speak of it. It was a matter of course, of duty for us; thank God, never to speak of it, never to talk of it. It made everybody shudder. Yet everyone was clear in his mind that he would do it again if ordered to do so, and if it was necessary.

I am referring now of the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that’s easy to say: “The Jewish people will be exterminated”, says every Party comrade. “That’s quite clear, it’s in our programme: the elimination of the Jews; that’s what we’re doing.”

But then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it’s quite clear that the other Jews are pigs – but this one is a first-class Jew…

To have gone through this [the extermination of the Jews] and at the same time to have remained decent, that has made us hard. This is a chapter of glory in our history which has never been written, and which never shall be written, since we know how hard it would be for us if we still had the Jews, living among us as secret saboteurs, agitators, and slander-mongers.

Among us now, in every city, during the bombing raids, with the suffering and deprivations of the war. We would probably already be in the same situation as in 1916 and 1917 if we still had the Jews in the body of the German people.

The riches they had, we’ve taken away from them. I have given a strict order, which SS Group Leader Pohl has carried out, that these riches shall be diverted to the Reich, without exception. We have taken none of it.

Individuals who failed were punished according to an order given by me at the beginning. He who takes even one mark of it, that will be his death. A number of SS men — not very many — have violated that order, and that will be their death, without mercy.

We had the moral right, we had the duty to our own people, to kill these people who wanted to kill us. But we don’t have the right to enrich ourselves even with one fur, one watch, one mark, one cigarette, or anything else. Just because we eradicated a bacillus doesn’t mean we want to be infected by the bacillus ourselves.

I will never permit even one little spot of corruption to arise or become established here. Wherever it may form, we shall burn it out together.

In general, however, we can say that we have carried out this most difficult task out of love for our own people. And we have suffered no harm to our inner self, our soul, our character in so doing.”
 
yeah I read the "counter argument". He says two sentences about how forgeries were discovered by "technical experts" but does not provide any evidence of this (hmmm)

HC blog posted a discussion which shows the reason for their removal

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HC blog's first post

Right. And you read MGK 's response too as well as the statement I just gave you?

Also see, picrel. That's purported to be 600 people on 100m2 or 10m x 10m. Does that look right to you?


Are you seriously suggesting that the ashes and cremains of every Holocaust victim must be conclusively identified? Giant piles of cremains buried underground and confirmed using core drills and noninvasive methods isn’t super fucking sus to you??

No, Im going to read this 500 page paper and smack you upside the head with some choice quotes if you even mention charlatans like Mattogno as “foremost academics” again, mouthbreather

Why is it sus? Kola already did it on Belzec.

Please do.

In the meantime here's more from stanislav;

"One day I got another message from Abraham. He was still in Camp 3 and that was to be his last message, though I saw him once again. The bearer was Klatt, the Ukrainian. As usual, he demanded his pay in gold. In his writings, Abraham informed me of important changes that had been made in the Camp. The manner through which the Jews were exterminated - asphyxiated by the combustion gases of a Diesel motor, had been abolished.

They had also modified the slaughterhouse – bathroom, and they had closed the hole in the wall through which went the exhaust-pipe of the motor which had been taken away. Besides, they had installed a moveable skylight in the ceiling of the fatal shed. As they did not think one “bathroom” was enough, the Nazis had erected another, which already obeyed the specifications above mentioned.

Everything led us to believe that they were preparing to launch an unprecedented slaughter, and had thus improved the lethal capabilities of Camp 3. Abraham went on to explain that, to direct the massacre, a chief of operations had already been appointed, the cruel Bauer. His main activities were those of checking, through the skylight, the exact moment when the shed was filled to saturation. At that moment, he issued an order and the door was hermetically closed. Next, he opened the skylight , threw a can of gas on the compact mass of condemned people, and closed it again. The gas was the deadly zyklon-B, conceived in laboratories of Germany with the only aim of answering to a demand from the killers – to discover a product which would kill more quickly.

After he had thrown the lethal charge down into the “bathroom” he waited in his watch-post until he was sure that all the occupants had been killed. Then, his macabre task was finished. Proceeding with his report, Abraham then mentioned the digger and the rails we had seen some days before, when they were on their way to Camp 3. He affirmed that the huge machine was in full use. It exhumed the corpses that had this far been buried in the Camp, and which came to dozens of thousands.

[...]

To end the letter, Abraham warned me not to send him any answer since there was no need for one and the risk would be too great for both of us. This letter, evidently, served for me to learn certain details which I did not know yet, for I already knew most of what happened in that infamous place. Some days later I had a great surprise, I was working in the machine shop when the criminal Bolender, the manic Franz and my friend came in. They had come to look for nails. While these were being supplied , Bolender strolled over our quarters, and showed them to Franz. They looked as if they were close friends."

 

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Right. And you read MGK 's response too as well as the statement I just gave you?

Also see, picrel. That's purported to be 600 people on 100m2 or 10m x 10m. Does that look right to you?




Why is it sus? Kola already did it on Belzec.

Please do.
I sent this to you earlier, but, MGK doesn't know what the word "propaganda" means to historians. Here's the wikitionary definition of "propaganda":
A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people.

Propaganda has to be published in a format for wide distribution. So a newspaper article could be propaganda, and a poster plasted all over Berlin is probably propaganda. But Mattogno redefines "propaganda" to include things that are never published; like postcards from the Ghetto and the contents of people's diaries. Mattogno loves to misuse the term "black propaganda", which he seems to think gjust means "really serious propaganda", but the real definition is:
Black propaganda is a form of propaganda intended to create the impression that it was created by those it is supposed to discredit. Black propaganda contrasts with gray propaganda, which does not identify its source, and white propaganda, which does not disguise its origins at all. It is typically used to vilify or embarrass the enemy through misrepresentation.[1]

So, "The protocols of Zion" is black propaganda, but postcards to your mom and one's private diary are not "black propaganda", unless the enemy is forging them in some effort to discredit you. This is one example of Mattogno simply not understanding the historical methods he claims to be an expert in.

Hey mr o lonzo what do you make of this:
“I want to mention another very difficult matter here before you in all frankness. Among ourselves, it ought to be spoken of quite openly for once – yet we shall never speak of it in public.

Just as little as we hesitated to do our duty as ordered on June 30th 1934, when we placed comrades who had failed against the wall and shot them, just as little did we ever speak of it, and we shall never speak of it. It was a matter of course, of duty for us; thank God, never to speak of it, never to talk of it. It made everybody shudder. Yet everyone was clear in his mind that he would do it again if ordered to do so, and if it was necessary.

I am referring now of the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that’s easy to say: “The Jewish people will be exterminated”, says every Party comrade. “That’s quite clear, it’s in our programme: the elimination of the Jews; that’s what we’re doing.”

But then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it’s quite clear that the other Jews are pigs – but this one is a first-class Jew…

To have gone through this [the extermination of the Jews] and at the same time to have remained decent, that has made us hard. This is a chapter of glory in our history which has never been written, and which never shall be written, since we know how hard it would be for us if we still had the Jews, living among us as secret saboteurs, agitators, and slander-mongers.

Among us now, in every city, during the bombing raids, with the suffering and deprivations of the war. We would probably already be in the same situation as in 1916 and 1917 if we still had the Jews in the body of the German people.

The riches they had, we’ve taken away from them. I have given a strict order, which SS Group Leader Pohl has carried out, that these riches shall be diverted to the Reich, without exception. We have taken none of it.

Individuals who failed were punished according to an order given by me at the beginning. He who takes even one mark of it, that will be his death. A number of SS men — not very many — have violated that order, and that will be their death, without mercy.

We had the moral right, we had the duty to our own people, to kill these people who wanted to kill us. But we don’t have the right to enrich ourselves even with one fur, one watch, one mark, one cigarette, or anything else. Just because we eradicated a bacillus doesn’t mean we want to be infected by the bacillus ourselves.

I will never permit even one little spot of corruption to arise or become established here. Wherever it may form, we shall burn it out together.

In general, however, we can say that we have carried out this most difficult task out of love for our own people. And we have suffered no harm to our inner self, our soul, our character in so doing.

If the Holocaust is fake, why did Himmler give this speech to his own SS men?
 
Right. And you read MGK 's response too as well as the statement I just gave you?

Also see, picrel. That's purported to be 600 people on 100m2 or 10m x 10m. Does that look right to you?




Why is it sus? Kola already did it on Belzec.

Please do.

In the meantime here's more from stanislav;

"One day I got another message from Abraham. He was still in Camp 3 and that was to be his last message, though I saw him once again. The bearer was Klatt, the Ukrainian. As usual, he demanded his pay in gold. In his writings, Abraham informed me of important changes that had been made in the Camp. The manner through which the Jews were exterminated - asphyxiated by the combustion gases of a Diesel motor, had been abolished.

They had also modified the slaughterhouse – bathroom, and they had closed the hole in the wall through which went the exhaust-pipe of the motor which had been taken away. Besides, they had installed a moveable skylight in the ceiling of the fatal shed. As they did not think one “bathroom” was enough, the Nazis had erected another, which already obeyed the specifications above mentioned.

Everything led us to believe that they were preparing to launch an unprecedented slaughter, and had thus improved the lethal capabilities of Camp 3. Abraham went on to explain that, to direct the massacre, a chief of operations had already been appointed, the cruel Bauer. His main activities were those of checking, through the skylight, the exact moment when the shed was filled to saturation. At that moment, he issued an order and the door was hermetically closed. Next, he opened the skylight , threw a can of gas on the compact mass of condemned people, and closed it again. The gas was the deadly zyklon-B, conceived in laboratories of Germany with the only aim of answering to a demand from the killers – to discover a product which would kill more quickly.

After he had thrown the lethal charge down into the “bathroom” he waited in his watch-post until he was sure that all the occupants had been killed. Then, his macabre task was finished. Proceeding with his report, Abraham then mentioned the digger and the rails we had seen some days before, when they were on their way to Camp 3. He affirmed that the huge machine was in full use. It exhumed the corpses that had this far been buried in the Camp, and which came to dozens of thousands.

[...]

To end the letter, Abraham warned me not to send him any answer since there was no need for one and the risk would be too great for both of us. This letter, evidently, served for me to learn certain details which I did not know yet, for I already knew most of what happened in that infamous place. Some days later I had a great surprise, I was working in the machine shop when the criminal Bolender, the manic Franz and my friend came in. They had come to look for nails. While these were being supplied , Bolender strolled over our quarters, and showed them to Franz. They looked as if they were close friends."

I don’t think this continued passage from Stanislaw is as exculpatory as you seem to think it is.
 
I sent this to you earlier, but, MGK doesn't know what the word "propaganda" means to historians. Here's the wikitionary definition of "propaganda":


Propaganda has to be published in a format for wide distribution. So a newspaper article could be propaganda, and a poster plasted all over Berlin is probably propaganda. But Mattogno redefines "propaganda" to include things that are never published; like postcards from the Ghetto and the contents of people's diaries. Mattogno loves to misuse the term "black propaganda", which he seems to think gjust means "really serious propaganda", but the real definition is:


So, "The protocols of Zion" is black propaganda, but postcards to your mom and one's private diary are not "black propaganda", unless the enemy is forging them in some effort to discredit you. This is one example of Mattogno simply not understanding the historical methods he claims to be an expert in.

Hey mr o lonzo what do you make of this:


If the Holocaust is fake, why did Himmler give this speech to his own SS men?


Right. So you have not in fact read the response and do not intend to and instead wish to assert that not getting in your view the use of a term black propaganda correct means that one simply therefore cannot understand or use historical method, is that right?



As for this speech. It refers to the trials and tribulations of the SS. Which is why he was speaking to the SS.

Are you gishgalloping?
 
important to note as well that they found ash, that means body destruction. no skeletal remains means bones were separated. camp nearby had no crematoria
Ash means ash, you do know that wood and coal heating was very common 100 years ago, right?
If that was the case, then why are there multiple historians who believe 5 million died who are still very well respected? Raul Hilberg, for example, thought about 5 million were killed, then defended his position again in his second book. Another historian, Wolfgang Benz, believed the number to be between 5 to 6 million. Yad Vashem literally says this regarding the numbers

“All the serious research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million.”

5 million, 6 million, doesn’t make you a denier

Maybe 4 million does, but it probably depends on how you get the number.

Either way, your point makes no sense
You do know what the Overton Window is? Having controlled opposition argue a point gives it legitimacy. 5 to 7 million? Well I guess that's just about right, arguing 100k? Nazi!
Why would dozens of women have left their wedding Rings behind at a transit camp genius? They put them in hiding places them before going to the gas chamber and were unable to retrieve them because they were DED
Rumors of the Holocaust predate the war. People being forcefully removed are likely to believe they are on their way to be killed, even if they aren't.
Also, they found the borders of the mass graves and analyzed them using some noninvasive methods and core drills. The team stopped doing that because some Orthodox Rabbis complained that they were disturbing the remains.
I'm never going to listen to a Rabbi about disturbing bodies when they cut up and suck baby penis. You can either do a full excavation and detailed analysis or shut up.
Are you seriously suggesting that the ashes and cremains of every Holocaust victim must be conclusively identified? Giant piles of cremains buried underground and confirmed using core drills and noninvasive methods isn’t super fucking sus to you??
Yes, that's how science and archeology works. It is suspect, but it's not science. That's why you do a detailed scientific analysis.

You have a Masters in engineering and physics and you argue for the Holocaust. Jesus christ. The power of retarded ideology.
 
Right. So you have not in fact read the response and do not intend to and instead wish to assert that not getting in your view the use of a term black propaganda correct means that one simply therefore cannot understand or use historical method, is that right?



As for this speech. It refers to the trials and tribulations of the SS. Which is why he was speaking to the SS.

Are you gishgalloping?
He's started posting multiple pages from whereever. Of course he is.
 
No it does not you LARPing ignoramus.

Poland is probably the most "based" country in Europe and thoroughly anti-Nazi. The Mike Enoch claim that everything hinges on Holocaust denial is false.
So "based" the Germans marched into Poland, pretty much uncontested, resulting in the Poles begging the Brits to fight their war?
 
@Stan

heads up. it seems like you are new to this (talking to deniers, clearly you are familiar with the history) so you should know a few things to save your breath

1) any document recovered is automatically suspect because it was recovered in either Soviet or Pro-Jewish western territories, so open to tampering or forgery

2) any witness statement given after the war is also suspect, for the same reason. Germans would be forced to confess through torture or threat, Jews would lie for obvious reasons

3) these things are all the more suspect due to human remains never having been sufficiently demonstrated

4) forensic reports stating discovery of mass amounts of remains are unverifiable

most importantly you should know that @mrolonzo comes from Rodoh, where they have been arguing about the excavator at Treblinka 2 for months. This is the lowest form, the absolute dregs of denial*, and there is the danger of this thread turning into that and being ruined until mrolonzo leaves.

*I realized this early on when I asked a denier there why the Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz and he said it was to protect them from local anti-semites

Ash means ash, you do know that wood and coal heating was very common 100 years ago, right?
they buried tons of ashes with bones removed or smashed in the woods . explain
 
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