I remember reading the early rules and thinking "Well yeah of course you'd want to go home, some cities have been hit like DC and probably New York and so on but anything's got to be better than this..." then GDW started teasing modules and finally releasing the "Howling Wilderness" book and modules and it was just like...fuck, we should have stayed in Krakow.
Not to derail this fantastic chat about T2K but curious what people's thoughts are with regard to the Old School Essentials KS that's going live in February. Our group mostly plays 5E with some other stuff mixed in here and there but I'd be happy to try and branch out to other systems if it's not switching from basic addition to calculus as far as learning the rules goes. It doesn't hurt that OSE appeals to my odd favouring of so-called retro systems and rule sets.
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does OSE compare to 5E for example and can I get people to play it if they're mostly 5E nerds?
I remember reading the early rules and thinking "Well yeah of course you'd want to go home, some cities have been hit like DC and probably New York and so on but anything's got to be better than this..." then GDW started teasing modules and finally releasing the "Howling Wilderness" book and modules and it was just like...fuck, we should have stayed in Krakow.
I always thought I should have submitted the modules to GDW as an alternative to that Russian sub series.
Make the trip from Krakow to West Germany, through the Fulda Gap. Find the ASP. Find out the Monastery near Fulda is still intact with the monks still making beer. Find out the Fulda military base is wreckage but not radioactive so the stocks can be pulled from 11th ACR. Then take an old castle. Broker with other power groups for the most valuable thing in Germany: Seeds, supplies, and ammunition. Help establish a long term system.
Not to derail this fantastic chat about T2K but curious what people's thoughts are with regard to the Old School Essentials KS that's going live in February. Our group mostly plays 5E with some other stuff mixed in here and there but I'd be happy to try and branch out to other systems if it's not switching from basic addition to calculus as far as learning the rules goes. It doesn't hurt that OSE appeals to my odd favouring of so-called retro systems and rule sets.
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does OSE compare to 5E for example and can I get people to play it if they're mostly 5E nerds?
So, basically, what I understand at a glance about the osr is that it is people doing rehashes or copies of AD&D and Basic D&D, correct? I know you can't go into a department store anymore and get those versions but you can still buy them online, and as I discovered to my glee, you can buy and print PDFs of them, so why not do that?
As to getting people to play D&D...I mean, shit, just sit down and say "These are the rules we're playing." D&D is so simple, it should just work. If people are cranky because the rules are old, just bring over a few good things that they really really like from the new system.
Not to derail this fantastic chat about T2K but curious what people's thoughts are with regard to the Old School Essentials KS that's going live in February. Our group mostly plays 5E with some other stuff mixed in here and there but I'd be happy to try and branch out to other systems if it's not switching from basic addition to calculus as far as learning the rules goes. It doesn't hurt that OSE appeals to my odd favouring of so-called retro systems and rule sets.
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does OSE compare to 5E for example and can I get people to play it if they're mostly 5E nerds?
OSE is a coat of paint & varnish applied to old-school 1e D&D (D&D not AD&D; even their "Advanced Fantasy" is just expanded Basic D&D with new classes/spells) also called Basic, Basic/Expert, B/X, or BECMI (though its only the first 2 of those letters).
OSE is similar but also vastly different than 5e. If you think about 5e is where you are playing Hercules from Jason and the Argonauts - a nigh-unkillable demi-god beating the shit out of all he surveys, then OSE is about playing the Argonauts. Trained and dangerous men... but just men going against powerful, unnatural beasts. Not everyone is going make it back, but you've got a ship full of them.
The 5E to OSE pipeline... its hard to say. It depends on what people want from their D&D Night and how open people are to new systems. OSE is much, much less strict with rules. The DM has much more control and much less guidance on what goes on. If your group is full of people who enjoy a challenge and the interesting results from not always winning, they'll probably like it
If they are wanting to be murderhobos striding the earth and bending reality to the will of their super-special self-insert with 10-page backstory... they will probably have a bad time.
But I don't really like 5e, so I'd look to posters who have played more 5e than I have for their thoughts.
So, basically, what I understand at a glance about the osr is that it is people doing rehashes or copies of AD&D and Basic D&D, correct? I know you can't go into a department store anymore and get those versions but you can still buy them online, and as I discovered to my glee, you can buy and print PDFs of them, so why not do that?
OSE is I believe 100% D&D Basic/Expert rules with some minor text changes, clarifications on rules, and improved layout. OSE in particular has their ruleset in a wiki for free. You definitely don't need the books.
HOWEVER: You kinda want the books. The OSE books are quality printing and binding like you don't see a lot anymore. Really top-notch quality. The art IMHO is a mixed bag but the books look and feel great. They are hard cover and A5 size, so about 1/2 of a 8x11 modern D&D book.
They also have good layouts for the books. While the entire system, effectively the PHB, DMG, MM and a magic-item supplement fits into a 288-page A5 book (or about as much printing as the 5e PHB) they have have Core Rules, Genre Rules (AKA Classes), Spells, Treasures, and Monsters broken into 5 smaller individual books. This means for about the weight of the DMG & Monster manual, you can carry two complete copies of the rules with you.
Only think I don't absolutely love is they don't have lay-flat spines, and unlike a 8x11 book the A5 paper doesn't have quite enough leverage to hold itself open.
If you like having physical, professionally printed books, The only reason I'd say not to back is if you are in the US they use Exalted Funeral for fulfillment. Exalted Funeral has gone full woke, so while they have very little to do with the project and Necrotic Gnome has remained decidedly apolitical (to my knowledge, I don't follow these people close), you are funding their operations of making available books like "Be Gay Do Crime". They have more US partners for post-kickstarter fulfillment.
Exalted Funeral has also, and I use my words carefully, made a complete and utter fucking mess of the two times I've gotten stuff from them. I got my order, it arrived intact and undamaged, but they are very clearly a garage-type operation. One of those places where you get your shipping notification 3 days after the books have been delivered.
I bought the OSE books retail, and backed their advanced Fantasy Kickstarter based on the quality of those books. (And I'll say I'm a little pissed they are just redoing their previous kickstarts as box sets; I'd have skipped the Advanced Fantasy Kick Starter and waited for the box set if I'd known it was coming.)
Due to reasons both outside their control (ie Covid fucking ports) and inside of it (one of their writers losing their minds and them waiting too long to communicate about it) the Kickstarter fulfillment was 2-5 months delayed. They had given themselves lots of buffer, and had given a February to May timeline for fulfillment. But they delayed printing because one of the guys they hired to write a module lost his mind for a while, and they didn't update anyone about him completely missing his deadlines and going out of contact for a few weeks until a month-ish after everything was supposed to ready to ship.
Now, full disclaimer - they eventually did the right thing here which was sent everything other than this guys module to the printers, shipped it, and then after he unfucked himself sent that book separately while eating the costs. But they were sitting on everything OTHER than this fuckwits work product and doing complete radio silence other than "delays" until they finally announced several weeks after everything was supposed to be done.
This delay put them right into the middle of shipping fuckery (Evergreen was happening at the time IIRC) so of course even though they'd planned for some over runs...everything slid and I didn't get my books until July. And Exalted Funeral, slammed with orders, offered no communication or estimates about when books and orders might ship until pretty much everything had shipped. Not a great experience.
While it doesn't look like they need to wait on any fragile creatives to finish content this time around, global supply chain is still utterly fucked and if Exalted Funeral is doing the kickstarter/fulfillment again I doubt their boxing & shipping process has improved.
Not to derail this fantastic chat about T2K but curious what people's thoughts are with regard to the Old School Essentials KS that's going live in February. Our group mostly plays 5E with some other stuff mixed in here and there but I'd be happy to try and branch out to other systems if it's not switching from basic addition to calculus as far as learning the rules goes. It doesn't hurt that OSE appeals to my odd favouring of so-called retro systems and rule sets.
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does OSE compare to 5E for example and can I get people to play it if they're mostly 5E nerds?
I would also like to add that you might want to steal some of the D&D B/X books for more character races, classes, and premade adventures if your players/you are into that. Particularly the creature crucibles and most of the Mystara gazetteers (the latter of which are also good for stealing shit for your game). For the latter, I can recommend all of the gazetteers except the Ierendi one and the Atruaghin one (the latter of which Mr Welch himself did a rewrite of).
The fluff problems with 5E are pretty well documented, what with WotC trying to scrub anything 'objectionable' (read: villainous) from monsters.
Crunch wise, 5E isn't terrible. It actually addresses some of the problems seen in 3E with caster superiority with the concentration system (some spells cannot be cast and sustained at the same time), and martials get some better options (not perfect, but better). I really do like the advantage/disadvantage system for a fast and dirty way to modify a roll.
On the downside, though, some of the class options are very uneven -- the beastmaster archetype for the ranger is pretty bad, for example -- and they've retained certain spell names despite the spell NOT doing what's expected (protection from good and evil is a big offender here).
For me, one of the biggest problems with 5e crunch is the lack of options after third level. Unless you're taking feats, your only choice is where to put attribute points. (Hint: It's your main stat.)
I know you can't go into a department store anymore and get those versions but you can still buy them online, and as I discovered to my glee, you can buy and print PDFs of them, so why not do that?
One advantage. They're often free. Instead of trying to get a number of books that often conflict, you can say "We're running Basic Fantasy with these changes.". Instead of trying to get a tech boomer to download a book from this or that archive, you can just point to the official download link.
Beastmaster is playably strong for a Ranger character IF you use the Tasha's rework version that removes a lot of the clunk. Now the pet is basically a bonus action attack in a different spot which for a free level 3 feature isn't bad at all especially in a no feat setting. You get a generic template that is effectively an animal spirit as opposed to a literal animal (though if your DM isn't a massive stickler, you can just call it an animal). The animal spirit has 3 forms, land which is statistically best one, fly (it becomes a small creature in flying mode and has flyby to freely harass people in combat), and sea which lets it swin effectively. You can change its form every long rest. It isn't Gloom Stalker strong, but Gloom Stalker is an outlier.
This 3rd-level feature replaces the Ranger's Companion feature.
You magically summon a primal beast, which draws strength from your bond with nature. The beast is friendly to you and your companions and obeys your commands. Choose its stat block-Beast of the Land, Beast of the Sea, or Beast of the Sky-which uses your proficiency bonus (PB) in several places. You also determine the kind of animal the beast is, choosing a kind appropriate for the stat block. Whatever kind you choose, the beast bears primal markings, indicating its mystical origin.
In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If
you are incapacitated, the beast can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge.
If the beast has died within the last hour, you can use your action to touch it and expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher. The beast returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored. When you finish a long rest, you can summon a different primal beast. The new beast appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you, and you choose its stat block and appearance. If you already have a beast from this feature, it vanishes when the new beast appears. The beast also vanishes if you die.
Their is also gimmicky lance mount builds with small races that made OG Beastmaster useful where you effectively ride on your panther as if it were an enhanced horse, it isn't optimal but it is playable especially if you try to dual wield lances, but lance + shield is also acceptable if you want to make it simple. You kind of need mounted combatant to protect your pet well (unless your DM is nice), but as long as you aren't going into really high levels and your DM isn't ruthless, this build is good enough and plenty flavorful.
Bit of a detour, but I am very displeased that under RAW centaurs are forced to ride a mount if they want to claim any charge bonuses for a lance. Thankfully my GM in that game was willing to just go "Yeah, go ahead, you're a fucking centaur" and let me stab things to death on the charge.
Bit of a detour, but I am very displeased that under RAW centaurs are forced to ride a mount if they want to claim any charge bonuses for a lance. Thankfully my GM in that game was willing to just go "Yeah, go ahead, you're a fucking centaur" and let me stab things to death on the charge.
TCoE replaced the third-level "Ranger's Companion" feature with "Primal Companion" which is significantly better as instead of walking off to find a wolf friend and being fucked for the next 5 sessions while you wait for your DM to give you a chance to find a new beast companion, you now summon the beast for free as part of a LR, and can resummon it if it dies for a 1st level spell slot.
TCoE also replaced a bunch of the basic Ranger features so they're way better. Cause those features that relied on a very specific terrain/enemy type just completely sucked.
TCoE replaced the third-level "Ranger's Companion" feature with "Primal Companion" which is significantly better as instead of walking off to find a wolf friend and being fucked for the next 5 sessions while you wait for your DM to give you a chance to find a new beast companion, you now summon the beast for free as part of a LR, and can resummon it if it dies for a 1st level spell slot.
TCoE also replaced a bunch of the basic Ranger features so they're way better. Cause those features that relied on a very specific terrain/enemy type just completely sucked.
Gonna give Frostgrave a try. I already built my Wizard (Thaumaturge) and will slowly build up my warband, first for a solo game and then I'll grow it for multiplayer.
Gonna give Frostgrave a try. I already built my Wizard (Thaumaturge) and will slowly build up my warband, first for a solo game and then I'll grow it for multiplayer.
Let me know how that goes. I got their gnolls to fill out my D&D minis and they're pretty slick. Good but not amazing scult quality, but good variety on your sprue options.
Not to derail this fantastic chat about T2K but curious what people's thoughts are with regard to the Old School Essentials KS that's going live in February. Our group mostly plays 5E with some other stuff mixed in here and there but I'd be happy to try and branch out to other systems if it's not switching from basic addition to calculus as far as learning the rules goes. It doesn't hurt that OSE appeals to my odd favouring of so-called retro systems and rule sets.
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does OSE compare to 5E for example and can I get people to play it if they're mostly 5E nerds?
as mentioned depends on the people, as a whole it's usually quicker, less math and lower power level, which in theory means it should work just fine, however it's not DND LATEST EDITION EVERYONE ELSE PLAYS, so it might not even exist for some people.
if you're not dead set on OSE you could give this a try:
in my case it helps that the factors make the pros outweigh the cons, enough warhammer-fags around that always want something printed (while previously dismissing printing as "not as good" and rather drop their paychecks at the local gw store, so much for that) and I can get the mini I want in the amount I want without having to chase down and settle for cheap enough/available/"uglier" minis. plus kitbashing is a lot less messy and time consuming if you can do it digitally - but that goes above the printer hobby. also keeps the pile of shame small, less stuff that comes along with the stuff you actually want but no other way to buy it (unless buying overpriced singles).
it might also get some people off the gw-tit and play something else that isn't warhammer (always baffles me that people who can't imagine/won't bother with other rulesets or simple concepts settle for something as shite as warhammer of all things)
I did learn a not exactly local LGS offers BYOSTL printing services - no idea on what they charge, and I might just leverage them in the future. But again, $5 for an STL plus maybe $5 for printing.....I'd be better off buying a cast mini, or even spending a futher extra couple bucks to get an Iron Winds metal one.
check the conditions, they might tier it to offset the costs when people want single minis. for DLP there's not much difference between 10% of the buildplate and 100% besides cost in resin and more stuff to cure, so if you say want X minis (at least enough to fill your own buildplate) you might be able to get a cheaper deal.
it might also get some people off the gw-tit and play something else that isn't warhammer (always baffles me that people who can't imagine/won't bother with other rulesets or simple concepts settle for something as shite as warhammer of all things)
Maybe it's where I live, but the gaming part of warhammer always seemed secondary to the painting and collecting side. Everyone says they want to play, are looking forward to the next tournament, etc. But when it comes to getting people to put minis on the table, then suddenly there's some excuse. There's a third party "battle centre" near me. It's a warehouse full of wargaming tables, but the few times I've been in nobody is playing anything. I don't know how it functions as a business.
And that's the games people claim to want to play. Bring up anything else, and you might as well get be speaking a different language. If you want to try anything vaguely obscure, then just forget it.
Good luck with that.