Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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The real irony is a lot of "bad" paypig milking shit that 4e debuted - "You need to buy a new book for new class/class options" (like you have to buy a 5e book for subclasses), monthly access to tools (D&D Insider was D&D Beyond), Buy this pack of Ranger cards! - have returned in 5e but no community outcry.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the "buy this book for more options" been a thing for a lot longer than 4e? Y'know, all those "Complete [x]" books and so on from 2/3.5e. I wasn't playing D&D back then so I'm not that familiar with the contents, but I was under the impression that these books were the only way to get your hands on additional classes and prestige classes, and piracy wasn't as easy as it is today.

If anything, the sluggish release pace of 5e means there's a lot less shit to buy if you want to have the bulk of the character options available to you. The PHB and XGE/TCE/MMoM cover most race and class options; by my count through 5e.tools, those books include 59/77 races (not including variants and subraces) and 99/127 subclasses (with a chunk of those not covered being Critical Role-related. Those four books will handle most combinations you want to make, and if you want to go full budget mode, everything's available online somewhere.

The other stuff I won't argue with. As to why there's no outcry, I think people have been acclimated to the idea of paying monthly fees for services over the past decade or two, so they don't see an issue with forking over a few bucks a month for their VTT stuff if it's convenient enough, even if free or pay-once options are readily available. Own nothing and be happy, I guess.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the "buy this book for more options" been a thing for a lot longer than 4e? Y'know, all those "Complete [x]" books and so on from 2/3.5e.

The story there is kind of interesting.

Gygax really didn't care for the idea of rules expansions, but people clamored for them, and he needed money, so you got Unearthed Arcana, Gods & Demigods, Oriental Adventures, etc.

After Lorraine Williams ninja'd him out of the company, she noticed that rules expansions outsold adventures, so TSR started shitting them out as fast as they could write them. Since she was an accountant, her idea of market research was drawing a line on a graph and extending it to infinity.

Now, the problem with this approach is that while the market has constant, low-burning, never-ending appetite for adventures, the appetite for new rules falls off quickly, due to nobody wanting to play a game with 10,000 pages of rules. Sales of the rules expansions fell off quickly, and that was one of the many reasons TSR collapsed.

WotC then bought TSR and, largely under Ryan Dancey's guidance (Dancey also was behind the OGL and made a ton of content free, which probably led to Mattel firing him) decided to return to the Gygax philosophy. Limit the rules expansions to things that players really want and focus on adventures.

Then Mattel bought WotC. They fired pretty much everyone involved with creating 3rd edition, had their accountants draw a line on a graph, and discovered, lo and behold, rules expansions outsell adventures, and if we draw this line out to infinity...wow!

But you know what happened next. The first few rules expansions for 3.5 sold like gangbusters, but sales then fell off exponentially. Just a couple years later, 3.5 books weren't selling, and the market was choking. So, Mattel, in its infinite wisdom, directed WotC to try again, but this time with a subscription service and some other minor changes, but the main goal was to sell endless rules expansions.

Guess what? Aside from traditional players hating 4e, the "endless splat" strategy failed again. With the D&D brand missing even the most conservative sales projections within about 3 years, Mike Mearls got the green light to try something radically different: keep the rules expansions to a minimum, only releasing what the market really demands, while having a continuous, regular grind of adventures, and center their market strategy around marquee adventure books.

Mearls' strategy resulted in the best-selling edition of D&D of all time, and the longest-running edition since 1e. However, it appears that Mattel has noticed that rules books sell very well, and they think a subscription service will bring endless money, plus that faggot Jeremy Crawford pushed out Mearls for not being woke enough and filled the team up with dangerhairs, and it looks like we're due for another greed-driven collapse.
 
This sounds pretty cool and an emphasis on more tactical encounters sounds appealing to me. My group does like it's noncombat RP as well but maybe for campaigns that are really combat focused it could be fun.
Being unable to "theater of mind" it is definitely a negative for my group because they are lazy but I might have to look into trying it in the future.
There is a lot of options for non-combat RP, most of the better modules include optional ways to resolve some encounters through non-combat/low-combat options.

But in the economy established, a cow costs 10g, iirc a peasant earns 1g a week... and a lvl 1 magic item is worth 360g and lvl 1 players are finding multiple lvl 1 and sometimes lvl 3 items on their first outting. So you need to either work around that, or have a party who is more interested in going on an adventure than trying to break the local economy.

The no theater of the mind is admittedly not great (again, for a lot of "this random encounter is a bunch of shit the party can easily handle" I'll just have the party roll some attacks). But I like playing with toys and using VTT so its not a big deal for me.

And regarding both theater of mind and Role Playing vs Roll Playing... 4e introduced something called a "skill challenge" which I initially disliked but came to appreciate and adapt. Basically when the party wants to diplomatize the King into stopping his war on the Elves, instead of it coming down to a single roll of diplomacy, the party needs to take multiple actions - rolling to get a number of successes before certain number of failures - to succeed.

First player rolls straight INT and lays out an economic case for stopping the war, next player uses History to tell the King wars against the elves never end up well, Third player uses diplomacy to try to convince the king to stop being a violent asshat, etc. There's lots of room for players to go free form, players can even instead of calling out a skill just describe what their character does to aid the effort and the DM can assign it to a skill.
In the modules they have recommended stuff, but you can always make up your own.

(So what I usually do for non-gridded encounter is just turn the combat into a combat-based skill challenge, and just knock off healing surges depending on how long it took)
Or I want a skill challenge that doesn't have any penalties for failure other than time taken, 4e DM material has easy/medium/hard level DCs for player level, so I'll multiply that by number of successes to pass a skill challenge of the right complexity and have the party roll till they cumulatively hit that number and count how many rolls it takes - I've started doing this for overland travel and it's working pretty good.

This is one of my favorite things about having my interests overrun by consoomers. Stuff that caused a shitstorm a few years ago is now just allowed to happen and you are expected to be uncritical of it.
I suppose I should clarify:
I liked a lot of WotC play aids. They were nearly all of decent quality. But people lost their minds about the gall of WotC to sell a deck of Ranger Power cards or cards with magical weapons/armor, etc.
Stuff that 5e is doing and more, but this time there's no outcry.
I guess its more of a critique of the community than WotC (for once).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the "buy this book for more options" been a thing for a lot longer than 4e?

Sort of.
They've always had splats for more options, but in general you could always just copy (copier or by hand) a paragraph to a page, maybe two, and have what you wanted from the splat. Everything you need to run a 3.5e fighter from level 1-20 will fit on like 3 pages, including your most popular feats. Do a cleric/wizard and you maybe add two pages that depending your spells and how verbose their descriptions are.

For a 4e class, its about 13 pages of content to go from 1-30 just in the PHB and that ignores feats, etc. Plus with all the keywords, its more than you really want to copy by hand. In the expasions, each class gets another 10ish pages of content plus some class options. This is more than you're going to want to just write out, especially since you need to get the keywords.

5e subclasses are a bit in between. From what I saw there too much content to just write down some quick notes.

Pre-5e also usually had options books - "but this book to pad out the PHB with new shit". Like 4e had The "X Power" books - martial power had options for all the martial classes. Divine for divine classes, etc.

From what I remember, 5e likes to hide their subclasses in settings books. So you maybe get a one or two subclasses and a bunch of shit you may or may not want. 4e only did this with (iirc) Necormancer/open grave.
 
The real irony is a lot of "bad" paypig milking shit that 4e debuted - "You need to buy a new book for new class/class options" (like you have to buy a 5e book for subclasses), monthly access to tools (D&D Insider was D&D Beyond), Buy this pack of Ranger cards! - have returned in 5e but no community outcry.
Anyone who is still with WOTC after all the shit they've pulled is completely buck-broken.
 
5e subclasses are a bit in between. From what I saw there too much content to just write down some quick notes.

Pre-5e also usually had options books - "but this book to pad out the PHB with new shit". Like 4e had The "X Power" books - martial power had options for all the martial classes. Divine for divine classes, etc.

From what I remember, 5e likes to hide their subclasses in settings books. So you maybe get a one or two subclasses and a bunch of shit you may or may not want. 4e only did this with (iirc) Necormancer/open grave.
Initially I transcribed class feature and feat descriptions verbatim, but as I got more familiar with the rules, I started paring it down to enough words to understand what everything does. My bard's character sheet at level 9 has most of the front and about a third of the back features blocks filled, and there won't be a lot more to add. So yeah, definitely too much if you're going to transcribe word for word, but not so much that you can't fill in the basics of all your abilities. I think that's still an issue for new players that haven't gotten a feel for the game yet; they'll either have to copy it all down or keep flipping back to their PHB.

And yeah, outside of the aforementioned dedicated rules expansion books (especially TCE for optional class features), your other race/class options are going to be tucked into an adventure or campaign setting. While a pain, at least it's stuff that's thematically fitting to the setting, and sometimes the options really don't fit unless you're playing in the setting (like the Dragonlance backgrounds only working in a Dragonlance campaign). In that regard, I view it as more of a bonus on top of what you're primarily buying the book for, as opposed to the one thing you want out of the book. And if you really only care about a new subclass, nobody at WotC needs to know you didn't pay for it.

Tomb of Annihilation is continuing well, although I feel we're being a bit railroaded. I like to take a glance over chapters that we've completed just to get a high-level overview of the mechanics, and I think the DM felt like keeping track of all the exploration stuff was a bit much, so he just ignored that, displayed the DM's map to us, and asked us where we wanted to go. I'll cut him a lot of slack here since he has two small kids running around and being distracting (and another on the way, so it's gonna be a long while before we can have a quiet session).

We're also skipping an entire chapter with the yuan-ti dungeon in another part of the city, which was apparently already cleared out thanks to our ring-possessed former friend. Normally, you'd head down there when you had most of the puzzle cubes to unlock the final dungeon and retrieve the last one from the yuan-ti. It might be that the DM's looking to finish the adventure so we can move on to something else, so he decided to skip that dungeon and move on to the final confrontation.

I'm just hoping to keep my bard alive one more level so I can get my next set of Magical Secrets and dunk on our paladin and his horse as I fly around on him on a pegasus.
 
So the GM of a campaign I'm in expressed interest in playing Red Markets once the current game finishes. He said it's a game about post-zompocalypse life where the PCs are going out and scrounging dangerous places to make a living. I figured that sounded pretty cool, so I put on my tricorn hat and sailed the digital seas to fish up a PDF. Now I was thinking, "Zombies everywhere, society's fucked, go into that creepy rotting walmart and try to get something out," is pretty self-explanatory, right?

The setting takes 171 pages. 171 pages of unrelenting torment as the author goes on, and on, and on about how global warming and capitalism is the real enemy instead of the fucking undead. Now, fair is fair, a pillar of zompocalypse scenarios are that people are shit and will shiv their neighbors over a pack of crackers when the chips are down, so the government and army going and abandoning/bombing/shooting/etc millions of people upon the outbreak is a pretty expected part of any such setting. A government of competent, compassionate professionals would put a significant dent in things going completely pear-shaped, so for a total collapse they have to be self-serving and craven. That's fine. But Jesus Christ, whoever was writing that clearly expected to be paid by the word, because it was just excruciating to read. I haven't even gotten to the mechanics part of the book yet, because I've been exhausted by slogging through prose that screams for an editor to cut at least half of it down.
 
Any advice for a first time DM? I think I have things mostly figured out but seeking any extra advice feels like a good idea anyways
Don't be too in love with your own cleverness. To some degree you can unobtrusively railroad a group; no matter which road they take the bandits jump them, etc., but if you're wrestling over the wheel with the group, it will quickly become apparent. If they're bound and determined to go in some way you hadn't anticipated, you'll just need to roll with it. End the session early and let them know you need some time to plan, if necessary. That's preferable to trying to drag them kicking and screaming along whatever plot you'd worked out ahead of time.
 
WotC isn't any better between poor class balance (hello 5E ranger!)
I don't mind him not being "balanced", the main problem is Ranger is just boring. I just finished a run as a Ranger and their spells are bad, their ranged combat is bad, and there's not enough fun stuff you can do to make up for it. If you want to be a bow guy, go Fighter. Want to be a tree hugger? Go druid (I assume, never played druid but is can't be worse).

Also of course WoTC is going to start shilling mind flayer shit, they knew BG3 was going to be a success, someone's creeaming their pants trying to make a Cthulu Extended Universe. Or CEU. Maybe with their dick too. So a DCEU.
It's a bit late for that. The HP Lovecraft craze is on the wane. Like @40 Year Old Boomer , I still love that stuff and cram it in every chance I get. Hopefully people don't think I'm ripping off BG3.

It's not linear like that. Depending on the value you need to succeed, the effective bonus is different. If you need a 17-18, it's like +3, but if you need an 8-14, which is a much more typical roll for 5e, it's like +5.
I see this kind of autism a lot in Savage Worlds, and my stance is, when you're talking odds of less than 0.1%, it doesn't matter and you're probably playing the game wrong.

For anyone who cares (you shouldn't unless you're DMing Savage Worlds and slap this bullshit down), in SW dice explode (rolling the max allows you to roll again and add it to the result). Rolling a natural 6 on an exploding d4 is 2% more likely than rolling a nat 6 on a d6.

However, rolling exactly 6 is not a mechanic in the game. Closest I can think of is that target numbers in SW are usually 4, and some things will give a -2 penalty, this might be something to be concerned about.

However, a skilled shooter is going to be rolling d8 or even a d12. Both of which crush d4 on getting a 4+ or 6+.



A while back, I found an interesting proposal while browsing a thread that was discussing the best way to roll character stats.

Roll 4d6-1 like usual for all your stats, then order from highest to lowest. Then place the standard array next to it and compare values. If any of your stats are lower than the equivalent row in the standard array, swap in the standard value. So for example, if you rolled 16, 14, 12, 12, 11, and 7, you'd change it to 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, and 8. This lets you roll stats to potentially have a strong character, while also ensuring that you won't be any weaker than standard array, effectively putting a floor on your character's stats.

If you enjoy roleplaying a character with particularly low dump stats or you want your players to be challenged by the risk of low stat rolls, obviously this wouldn't be up your alley, but I think it's a decent idea.
That the method used by a YouTuber called Captain Couragous? (Or something like that, I don't really watch him)?


Also interested in any recommendations for any of those more 'hardcore' boardgames.
I'd recommend Powergrid.
No. Not Powergrid. I hate Powergrid.

...A lot of people like it and it's a classic so I guess try powergrid...

If you want boardgames for kids, it depends on the kids and how smart/mature they are. I can think of a lot.

Machi Koro is a great simple game. You're building a city by buying buildings that give you money when someone rolls a specific number of 1 or 2 d6. Some take money from players, some trigger when you roll, and some trigger when anyone rolls.

Tiny Epic Dinosaurs is a simplified version of Agricola, but with a Jurassic Park theme. You build a dino park by placing workers on a central board. A friend of mine loves the Tiny Epic games because they're tiny and he's a hoarder with dozens of board games he never plays.

Villainous. You play as classic Disney villains, each trying to complete their plan and unique rules. It's kind of complex depending on the character you play.

Castle Panic. I don't know if this still available, but it's basically a wave based tower defence game. Best played co-op.


But you can't go wrong with the classics.
Ticket to Ride. You collect coloured cards to build train tracks in order to complete routs. Very simple, a lot of depth once you know it, and broad appeal make this a go-to "get people to play something that isn't Monopoly at Christmas" game.

Forbidden Island. A co-op game where you're trying to recover treasure from a flooded island. Dead simple.

Nexus Ops. A hex based war game that's simple but has a lot of depth. The units are things like space marines and giant alien spiders.
 
Any advice for a first time DM? I think I have things mostly figured out but seeking any extra advice feels like a good idea anyways
Keep notes as you go. Not only will it help you remember what the party did in previous sessions, it'll give you things to reference later that will make it feel more like an ongoing story that you've planned out. You can bring back an NPC the party helped out in session 1 to fulfill a story beat in session 20, and your players will have no idea you pulled it out of your ass.

Speaking of, being able to adapt and improvise on the fly is an important skill you'll learn. As @robobobo mentioned, your party can and will go off in directions you didn't intend, and being able to bullshit your way into the next part of the story is important, whether it's coming up with some new plot to explore or gently nudging the party back towards their primary quest. Though again, if things get really off-track, don't be afraid to call it early so you have time to plan things out for the next session.

It can help if your players know how you intend on running the game through a session 0: what's allowed, what isn't, the general tone you're going for, etc. You don't need to reveal everything you're intending on doing, but you can avoid some issues and conflicts down the line by setting expectations ahead of time.

Above all, DMing should be fun for you as well as the party. You should generally aim for their success, with sufficient challenge along the way to make it feel earned. When resolving outcomes, aim for logical and fair rulings. If your party is about to do something incredibly stupid, there should be consequences for their actions. But don't just throw random bullshit at them just because you're in control of their world, that's a surefire way to get them to not want to come back. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, so do your best to make it so.

That said, it's also fun to make your players panic by rolling dice behind the screen, letting out a sigh at whatever you rolled, and scribbling something down. They don't have to know it's a meaningless roll!

(Also, DMs can often be bribed. Use this information as you will.)
That the method used by a YouTuber called Captain Couragous? (Or something like that, I don't really watch him)?
I dunno if that's the original source or not, I don't watch any tabletop YouTube channels. Regardless, I still like it as a best-of-both-worlds deal, where you get to have the fun of rolling stats without the potential of rolling ridiculously poorly and being behind the rest of your group.
 
Don't be too in love with your own cleverness. To some degree you can unobtrusively railroad a group; no matter which road they take the bandits jump them, etc., but if you're wrestling over the wheel with the group, it will quickly become apparent. If they're bound and determined to go in some way you hadn't anticipated, you'll just need to roll with it. End the session early and let them know you need some time to plan, if necessary. That's preferable to trying to drag them kicking and screaming along whatever plot you'd worked out ahead of time.

Keep notes as you go. Not only will it help you remember what the party did in previous sessions, it'll give you things to reference later that will make it feel more like an ongoing story that you've planned out. You can bring back an NPC the party helped out in session 1 to fulfill a story beat in session 20, and your players will have no idea you pulled it out of your ass.

Speaking of, being able to adapt and improvise on the fly is an important skill you'll learn. As @robobobo mentioned, your party can and will go off in directions you didn't intend, and being able to bullshit your way into the next part of the story is important, whether it's coming up with some new plot to explore or gently nudging the party back towards their primary quest. Though again, if things get really off-track, don't be afraid to call it early so you have time to plan things out for the next session.

It can help if your players know how you intend on running the game through a session 0: what's allowed, what isn't, the general tone you're going for, etc. You don't need to reveal everything you're intending on doing, but you can avoid some issues and conflicts down the line by setting expectations ahead of time.

Above all, DMing should be fun for you as well as the party. You should generally aim for their success, with sufficient challenge along the way to make it feel earned. When resolving outcomes, aim for logical and fair rulings. If your party is about to do something incredibly stupid, there should be consequences for their actions. But don't just throw random bullshit at them just because you're in control of their world, that's a surefire way to get them to not want to come back. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, so do your best to make it so.

That said, it's also fun to make your players panic by rolling dice behind the screen, letting out a sigh at whatever you rolled, and scribbling something down. They don't have to know it's a meaningless roll!

(Also, DMs can often be bribed. Use this information as you will.)
Thanks I appreciate the advice every bit helps even if some of this was stuff I was already planning on doing
 
Any advice for a first time DM? I think I have things mostly figured out but seeking any extra advice feels like a good idea anyways
One small thing I've always liked to do is to have my players write short 1-2 sentence descriptions for a few NPCs that their character might know. Stuff like "City Guard, owes me 10 gold". Then if you need a random npc, you can pull from that list. It helps make the world feel a bit more alive.
 
One small thing I've always liked to do is to have my players write short 1-2 sentence descriptions for a few NPCs that their character might know. Stuff like "City Guard, owes me 10 gold". Then if you need a random npc, you can pull from that list. It helps make the world feel a bit more alive.
could have trouble with that one as the plot of my campaign involves the players explicitly being newcomers to a new continent that has only recently started getting settled
 
I dunno if that's the original source or not, I don't watch any tabletop YouTube channels.
I looked for it, and it's different. Here's the video I mentioned.
Skip to 3:57 to get to the method.

In short. 24 d6, drop the 4 lowest, arrange into groups of 3 from lowest to highest. Assign those as you like.
 
As for boardgames my suggestion is restoration's game unmatched, it is a pvp games for up to 4 players and each set has different characters or a theme, the london one is pretty cool
but seriously, it all depends on the group and what they can take. years ago agricola was hyped everywhere, when it boils down to multiplayer solitaire for a few hours that bores me to tears. meanwhile everyone complains about the length of twilight imperium and how "hard" arkham horror is and how "complicated" the rules are...
Arkham horror isn't that hard, problem is the length of the sessions, the version that was more of a card game was so much faster
 
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I'd also pitch for boardgames "Betrayal at the House on the Hill" it is a cooperative horror-themed game that becomes PvP (well 98% of the time) when the end starts and one of the players is revealed to have always been a secret traitor. The players explore a house by drawing and placing random room tiles, some of them and cause haunted/eldritch shit to happen. Enough happens, and the end game (called a Haunt) is triggered.

The end game is can be VERY hit or miss and could have used some more playtesting (example, its possible to trigger the end game early and some of the events work better with larger or smaller houses.) but when it works its really fun since you don't know who will be the betrayer (and sometimes there's more than one)

Downsides are you need a fair bit of table space, the rules are sometimes a little vague on how to apply to situations, games can take a while (45-60+) which is a lot of investment for somethign that can fizzle, and there a wide variety of infrequently used tokens so some end games will have you digging through the box for cardboard tokens for 10 minutes.
There are 3rd party box organizers that are supposed to make that better.

No. Not Powergrid. I hate Powergrid.
How the hell can you hate powergrid?
 
could have trouble with that one as the plot of my campaign involves the players explicitly being newcomers to a new continent that has only recently started getting settled
How are they getting there? Did they meet any interesting people during the journey who may have been seeking fortune or a new life on the continent? Could they possibly know people who set out before them, or people who were planning to make the journey themselves?

I did something similar a few years back where session 0 took place on the boat when a mutiny broke out and I ended up improvising a few NPCs during the session who showed up occasionally later on.
 
I'd also pitch for boardgames "Betrayal at the House on the Hill" it is a cooperative horror-themed game that becomes PvP (well 98% of the time) when the end starts and one of the players is revealed to have always been a secret traitor. The players explore a house by drawing and placing random room tiles, some of them and cause haunted/eldritch shit to happen. Enough happens, and the end game (called a Haunt) is triggered.
Seconding this one. It's a lot of fun and can be surprisingly tense for a board game. I also really like the map building aspect.
 
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