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Would the natives actually have the resources/institutions to develop an industrial civilization?
Native Americans were able to change their cultures to better fit in with the white settlers around them so yes if they discovered metal presumably they would have been able to adapt their culture. Pictured below Chief Vann's house from the 1800s.
Chief_Vann_House,_Sept_2017.jpg
 
Would the natives actually have the resources/institutions to develop an industrial civilization?
The beauty of it all is this:

Every nation on earth had pretty much the same starting point of hunters and gatherers that spread over the globe tens of thousands of years ago. Everyone started from the same basic foundation and a few places developed quicker than others.
My assumption is that competition over limited resources, harsh climates and a few other factors (such as noisy neighbors, from which to steal inventions and ideas) created some sort of evolutionary thunderdome, that caused an arms-race amongst an insanely big area with hotspots all across Europe, the northern parts of Africa, Arabia and up to China and Japan. These places ended up on top of the stack. The Europeans, in particular, were apparently really good in coming up with new and exciting ways to fuck up other people and how to effectively rule over huge areas unopposed. This isn't just a matter of having access to (say) steel, it's also a matter of administration, communication methods and so on.

Nothing ever prevented the Natives from doing the same in their neck of the woods, they could have created an equally advanced civilization as their European or Asian counterparts. Just to let this sink in: China, Egypt, Greece, Rome... just to name a few, these states were insanely developed "nations" (for lack of a better term) with a very nifty administrative system, and cutting edge technology and sciences thousands of years before the Natives in Northern America came face to face with European settlers. And by that time, the Natives hadn't yet even figured out how to use metals. Maybe they'd figure out using metals some time later than Europe and progressed at a slower pace towards using similar stuff, maybe coming up with similar technologies and so on, but they didn't.

They had the same chance everybody else got and there was just not enough drive or reason to invent new stuff. Even with unlimited time on a completely remote and seperated place of their own, I doubt they'd catch up. By the time, these Natives would figure out how to make monosteel, everybody else would already be building airplanes from industrially produced space alloys and aluminium.
 
The beauty of it all is this:

Every nation on earth had pretty much the same starting point of hunters and gatherers that spread over the globe tens of thousands of years ago. Everyone started from the same basic foundation and a few places developed quicker than others.
My assumption is that competition over limited resources, harsh climates and a few other factors (such as noisy neighbors, from which to steal inventions and ideas) created some sort of evolutionary thunderdome, that caused an arms-race amongst an insanely big area with hotspots all across Europe, the northern parts of Africa, Arabia and up to China and Japan. These places ended up on top of the stack. The Europeans, in particular, were apparently really good in coming up with new and exciting ways to fuck up other people and how to effectively rule over huge areas unopposed. This isn't just a matter of having access to (say) steel, it's also a matter of administration, communication methods and so on.

Nothing ever prevented the Natives from doing the same in their neck of the woods, they could have created an equally advanced civilization as their European or Asian counterparts. Just to let this sink in: China, Egypt, Greece, Rome... just to name a few, these states were insanely developed "nations" (for lack of a better term) with a very nifty administrative system, and cutting edge technology and sciences thousands of years before the Natives in Northern America came face to face with European settlers. And by that time, the Natives hadn't yet even figured out how to use metals. Maybe they'd figure out using metals some time later than Europe and progressed at a slower pace towards using similar stuff, maybe coming up with similar technologies and so on, but they didn't.

They had the same chance everybody else got and there was just not enough drive or reason to invent new stuff. Even with unlimited time on a completely remote and seperated place of their own, I doubt they'd catch up. By the time, these Natives would figure out how to make monosteel, everybody else would already be building airplanes from industrially produced space alloys and aluminium.
Europeans weren't always advanced. It's the Great Divergence which really is as all things history very very hotly debated. But roughly two big divergenes to the favour of European states happened. One around the 16th century and another much bigger one in the 19th century with the development of the industrial revolution. There's many many reasons for this really and whole books and careers are built on studying this.

One of the reasons why africa or the americas didn't develop as an example is that there wasn't a well developed drat animal system that necessitated metallurgy for plows and the climate disincentivized heavy armour which disincentivized metallurgy for weapons and armour. You don't have mesoamericans and kongo africans perfecting a suit of heavy armour because it's impractical to their climate. It goes on and on.

Key idea like always is that history is 90% geography 10% common sense.
 
Key idea like always is that history is 90% geography 10% common sense.
To quote one of my history teachers way back in high school:

Do you live under a harsh climate or live somewhere that's prone to either severe winters or crop-demolishing droughts? Are there rival civilizations nearby? Do you have large navigable rivers nearby?

If you've said yes to two or more of those questions, there's a good chance your civilization will soon be punching above its weight when it comes to large scale government and technological development!


And yes, he put on a Billy Mays voice for that little skit. Anyway, his point was that yep, geography is important, kids!
 
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Europeans weren't always advanced.
I meant that ultimately, they came out on top, obviously not that they were always on top in eternal perpetuity. Which should be clear when I bring up Egypt's high civilization, which was thousands of years before Europe was even close to a similar state of affairs. And my whole point is that geography plays a huge role.
 
The American Indians were basically fucked, is the tl;dr. Europe was forced into important progress yardsticks like animal domestication, crop cultivation, and metallurgy in order to do things like not starve, and once they had those things the increase in people led to people inventing ways to kill other people. The people in the Americas had generally less-hostile environments so less incentive to innovate to live through winter, and weren't locked in a perpetual murderdome like the populations in Europe. They had wars, but not on the scale of people like Rome.

If you've ever read Dune, and how Herbert wrote that the Sardaukar and the Fremen's absolute hellhole living conditions are what made them psycho badass murderers, Europe basically did that to the people who showed up to America, and the natives were not one bit ready to handle it. Would the various indigenous peoples have eventually gone high-tech? Maybe. They'd have made technological progress, certainly, but without a need to dig big holes in the dirt to scrabble for bits of metal, why would they have embarked down that path? It wouldn't have made sense.
 
I love how their all "The natives will all get along and they'll develop technology!"

"What technology did they develop by the time the settlers had arrived?"
...
...
"They stopped eating horse shit."
Depends on the area. The Incans were pretty much on par with the Roman Empire when that nutjob Pizzaro came by. They had developed road systems, a series of tolls, a pretty good by ancient society tax system, a protoscript in the form of quipu, and they could smith metal.

Hell, the Mesoamericans and Andeans did have a tradition of metal casting to a degree.

Plains boys though weren't so advanced no. Once the meteoric and surface deposits went away, so did their industry. Still, you had the Mississippi cultures and their neolithic societies at least.
Would the natives actually have the resources/institutions to develop an industrial civilization?
They probably could have given time. The Aimara of Tiwanaku did develop bronze and copper casting (which the Inca refound when Tiwanaku collapsed), as did the Colima people of Mexico with copper. The Muisca were goldsmiths since like 500 AD. They had the basic potential to go on.

But the big issue was their crop packages were more shit compared to the Old World. Maize took a long time to domesticate compared to the grasses the Old World had. They were operating at something like 2-4k years behind in terms of settling down since it took so long to domesticate the crops in the yields needed to make it work. Made all the worse by no horses and good tract animals for that purpose. No good riding or farm animal? Lowered yields and a far slower idea spread.

TBH, the only region that was utterly fucked was Australia, and that's because the Abbos had NO good option for a Founder Crop. No Founder Crop, no developed civilization.
 
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Also, one thing an anthropologist friend told me, a lot of tribal cultures were only spending about 3-4 hours a day on the necessities of living. Getting food, water, maintaining their living area, etc. If you went to them and told them they could get a big leg up if only they'd work 10-hour days slaving away in a field or a factory, they'd think you were insane. A big piece of Europe's progress is the fact that it was chewing up and spitting out people in the name of that progress.
 
I love how their all "The natives will all get along and they'll develop technology!"

"What technology did they develop by the time the settlers had arrived?"
...
...
"They stopped eating horse shit."
Horses were reintroduced to the americas in the 1500’s.

Would the natives actually have the resources/institutions to develop an industrial civilization?
It really depends on them domesticating (at least in North America) the Bison for that. With a domesticated bison, you could plow larger tracts of land for your various crops, or at least transport more goods further.
Yeah, it always tickles me that they say they'd have Wakanda when historically, they couldn't figure out the wheel. Most tech innovations they enjoy today come from the hated wypipo and yelapipo, with a foundation from the Middle East for mathematics.

Considering metallurgy in the northern American continent was pretty much nonexistant pre-Mayflower, I'm going to say no.
The Maya and many other mesoamerican civilizations had extremely advanced mathematics. The Mayans were among the first to get the mathematical concept of zero, a huge step in calculations and theories. They also did have the wheel, it’s just that it wasn’t applied to things larger than toys and trinkets. Without large beasts of burden, the idea of the cart just isn’t really going to become wide spread.

Metallurgy was not unknown or non-existent. Metal just wasn’t super common in surface deposits, and the metal that was in surface deposits was iron mostly - and without a large scale copper smelting culture to piggyback off of, iron smelting is not going to develop. Silver and gold smelting was a well developed industry in central and South America.
 
The Maya and many other mesoamerican civilizations had extremely advanced mathematics. The Mayans were among the first to get the mathematical concept of zero, a huge step in calculations and theories. They also did have the wheel, it’s just that it wasn’t applied to things larger than toys and trinkets. Without large beasts of burden, the idea of the cart just isn’t really going to become wide spread.

Metallurgy was not unknown or non-existent. Metal just wasn’t super common in surface deposits, and the metal that was in surface deposits was iron mostly - and without a large scale copper smelting culture to piggyback off of, iron smelting is not going to develop. Silver and gold smelting was a well developed industry in central and South America.
I should have explained it better, but I was trying to exclude the Mesoamerican civilizations from my statement. I'm aware of their technological progress. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised they weren't on a closer level with the Europeans, but like you said it was likely down to not smelting copper to discover a way to smelt iron.
 
The beauty of it all is this:

Every nation on earth had pretty much the same starting point of hunters and gatherers that spread over the globe tens of thousands of years ago. Everyone started from the same basic foundation and a few places developed quicker than others.
My assumption is that competition over limited resources, harsh climates and a few other factors (such as noisy neighbors, from which to steal inventions and ideas) created some sort of evolutionary thunderdome, that caused an arms-race amongst an insanely big area with hotspots all across Europe, the northern parts of Africa, Arabia and up to China and Japan. These places ended up on top of the stack. The Europeans, in particular, were apparently really good in coming up with new and exciting ways to fuck up other people and how to effectively rule over huge areas unopposed. This isn't just a matter of having access to (say) steel, it's also a matter of administration, communication methods and so on.

Nothing ever prevented the Natives from doing the same in their neck of the woods, they could have created an equally advanced civilization as their European or Asian counterparts. Just to let this sink in: China, Egypt, Greece, Rome... just to name a few, these states were insanely developed "nations" (for lack of a better term) with a very nifty administrative system, and cutting edge technology and sciences thousands of years before the Natives in Northern America came face to face with European settlers. And by that time, the Natives hadn't yet even figured out how to use metals. Maybe they'd figure out using metals some time later than Europe and progressed at a slower pace towards using similar stuff, maybe coming up with similar technologies and so on, but they didn't.

They had the same chance everybody else got and there was just not enough drive or reason to invent new stuff. Even with unlimited time on a completely remote and seperated place of their own, I doubt they'd catch up. By the time, these Natives would figure out how to make monosteel, everybody else would already be building airplanes from industrially produced space alloys and aluminium.
Religion can also play a huge part whether or not a culture can advance in technology.
 
Also, one thing an anthropologist friend told me, a lot of tribal cultures were only spending about 3-4 hours a day on the necessities of living. Getting food, water, maintaining their living area, etc. If you went to them and told them they could get a big leg up if only they'd work 10-hour days slaving away in a field or a factory, they'd think you were insane. A big piece of Europe's progress is the fact that it was chewing up and spitting out people in the name of that progress.
Trouble with that remark is that in Europe given how utterly shit any place that isn't France or the Iberian plains is when it comes to large scale cultivation (Italy and the Balkans have an excellent climate but are far too mountainous to be truly good), anything that wasn't backbreaking labor from sunup to sundown just wasn't going to provide sufficient yields. It wasn't until you had the double-whammy of the potato as a sturdy, practically year-round and high-calorie root crop, and the beginnings of industrialized agriculture to reduce the necessary labor (and necessary caloric consumption) from farmers, that populations truly began to explode in Europe. Wheat and the other grains had an absolutely terrible yield compared to say, rice, so the vast bulk of the European vegetable diet prior to the 1700's were the much hardier and easier to grow legumes. A protein-heavy diet such as legumes and animal protein such as dairy (both bovine and goat), eggs and fish is pretty suboptimal when it comes to getting sufficient calories, no matter how rich it is in other essential nutrients, so as soon as the Europeans had a steady source of calories from imported grains, they were all ready to have a population explosion as their diet went from "starving" to "well-rounded" practically instantly.
 
That's another reason to love the farms. A post about wannabe injuns making a game to stick it up to whitey results in a pretty in-depth discussion on the reasons for the technology gap between people from Europe and America.

You just know that the people doing that RPG would cop-out, too. Oh, that technology wasn't brought there by the evil wypipo, no. There's magic. A spirit brought them these secrets. All their tech is going to be a severe case of "a wizard did it". How fucking lame is that? At least in Shadowrun the world was already cyberpunk before pointy-eared started popping up all over the place.
 
That's another reason to love the farms. A post about wannabe injuns making a game to stick it up to whitey results in a pretty in-depth discussion on the reasons for the technology gap between people from Europe and America.
Trouble is the inverse also tends to happen, where a well-reasoned debate turns into racist shitflinging. Still, you learn to take the good with the bad here.

Also not quite for Shadowrun. Knife-ears and stunties started showing up in 2012, and the cyber(netics) part hadn't yet happened, even though the mass population deaths, environmental destruction, and rise of unchecked corporate power had all taken place. That said, NAN aside, the fragmentation of the USA and the formation of the UCAS, CAS, and California Free State are all rather contrived IMO, despite how necessary they are for the setting.
 
Trouble is the inverse also tends to happen, where a well-reasoned debate turns into racist shitflinging. Still, you learn to take the good with the bad here.
I've been staying mostly away from A&N these days, so I haven't seen a whole lot of racist shitflinging lately. It's nice.

Also not quite for Shadowrun. Knife-ears and stunties started showing up in 2012, and the cyber(netics) part hadn't yet happened, even though the mass population deaths, environmental destruction, and rise of unchecked corporate power had all taken place. That said, NAN aside, the fragmentation of the USA and the formation of the UCAS, CAS, and California Free State are all rather contrived IMO, despite how necessary they are for the setting.
My bad, I should have said "dystopia" instead of outright "cyberpunk". Still, AFAIK, in Shadowrun the technology isn't necessarily all A Wizard Did It. It's been a while since I checked the setting, but isn't most of the chrome in there actually just "standard" cyberpunk tech, with a side effect of dampening magic?
 
My bad, I should have said "dystopia" instead of outright "cyberpunk". Still, AFAIK, in Shadowrun the technology isn't necessarily all A Wizard Did It. It's been a while since I checked the setting, but isn't most of the chrome in there actually just "standard" cyberpunk tech, with a side effect of dampening magic?
Yep. Slapping cyberware in any sort of magic user will pretty much irreversibly fuck them over hard. Even losing 0.1 essence is a permanent reduction in max stats, as well as current stats. Not really sure what that has to do with your post since "A wizard did it" doesn't necessarily mean actual wizards made it happen, just a bullshit handwave caused it.
 
Yep. Slapping cyberware in any sort of magic user will pretty much irreversibly fuck them over hard. Even losing 0.1 essence is a permanent reduction in max stats, as well as current stats. Not really sure what that has to do with your post since "A wizard did it" doesn't necessarily mean actual wizards made it happen, just a bullshit handwave caused it.
Nothing to do with your post, necessarily. I was talking about how the creators of the Crow & Coyote (I just noticed, it's C&C. Great, another D&D joke) are likely to just handwave the issues with native peoples developing cyberpunk-tier technology without any external influence by going "A Wizard (Spirit) Did It", and I compared it to Shadowrun, which does it in a much better way.
 
That's another reason to love the farms. A post about wannabe injuns making a game to stick it up to whitey results in a pretty in-depth discussion on the reasons for the technology gap between people from Europe and America.

You just know that the people doing that RPG would cop-out, too. Oh, that technology wasn't brought there by the evil wypipo, no. There's magic. A spirit brought them these secrets. All their tech is going to be a severe case of "a wizard did it". How fucking lame is that? At least in Shadowrun the world was already cyberpunk before pointy-eared started popping up all over the place.
Here's a dumb idea of how to bridge the technological gap: have the Norse colonization of the Americas be more extensive than it was IRL, leading to the exchange of diseases which ravaged the population after Columbus to occur four centuries earlier. This gives the survivors of the initial wave of smallpox enough time to repopulate. So instead of a disease-ravaged depopulated continent, the later European settlers encounter numerous, technologically equivalent (due to adopting ironworking from the Norse), and very xenophobic (due to oral traditions of how the first batch of settlers brought disease and death) indigenous population.
 
That said, NAN aside, the fragmentation of the USA and the formation of the UCAS, CAS, and California Free State are all rather contrived IMO, despite how necessary they are for the setting.

you mean the fragmentation itself, how it happened or how it ended up? because balkanization is the most likely outcome, you can already see the softest version of it where florida and SC (and now texas and another state) tell washington they can shove their lockdown.
 
Yeah, it always tickles me that they say they'd have Wakanda when historically, they couldn't figure out the wheel. Most tech innovations they enjoy today come from the hated wypipo and yelapipo, with a foundation from the Middle East for mathematics.


Considering metallurgy in the northern American continent was pretty much nonexistant pre-Mayflower, I'm going to say no.
They had metallurgy but abandoned it.
Decent paper on it.
 
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