Can Islam ever be reformed? - *rates optimistic*

[OwO What's This?]

If the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia gets the international support he needs while ISIS continues to get crushed, Islam will be reformed.

I'd give it a 10% chance of moderate Islam gaining greater influence than fundamentalist Islam within the next decade.

 

[guluboy17]

If you actually are right about that, we need to kill you all while we have all the nuclear weapons and you are a bunch of goatfucking savages.

I think you're wrong. I think in a couple centuries Islam will be as normie as other religions.

LOL ok. "We need to kill you all" edgy as hell, but it's ok, as someone as idiot like yourself, I don't even take that as an 'insult'. Western Civilization will kill itself eventually.

Oh boy, we have a live one.
It's late and I'm drunk, so I'm just going to point out that:
1. Every religion throughout history has believed itself to be the perfect one. Those that refused to change with the times stagnated and died.
2. You lie when you say that Wahabi shall give the world scientific benefits, when over and over again imams and scholars decry all technological or cultural advancement since the time of Muhammad.
3. You lie when you talk of cultural benefits when over and over again all culture is spat upon by your imams; to make music is a sin, to paint is a sin, to sculpt is a sin, to tell a story is a sin. It seems that having a culture is a sin.
4. The fact that you think Israel exists to stop some grand unification of the Middle East shows you are a fool misled by the lies of a serpent, blind to both past and present.
5. You shall win no converts here.

1: Yes, every religion believed itself so, just like every political, philosophical, and scientific ideologies thought they were the "true" systems. "Those that refused" was it 'those' or the 'society' ?
2: "when over and over again imams and scholars decry all technological or cultural advancement" Wrong. This is not Christian Monasticism, This is basic Islamic Theology. Basic Islamic Assets like Compasses to know where to pray, or Engineers and Architects to build Mosques is enough to prove that Islam is just as much physical as it is spiritual. Scholars will most likely want to prohibit haram technology , "Sexual Desire" mechanics, "sex toys" , "Illegal Adultery" etc.
3: "when over and over again all culture is spat upon by your imams"
Definition of culture
1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
As per-definition, Islam Allows All Cultures and Traditions. Even the Prophet (saaws) Wore Traditional Arab Clothes etc. Islam Only forbids Haram things in Culture . 'Painting' is not haram. Drawing Lively things (heads i.e nose, mouth, eyes etc.) is. Drawing Non-living things is not. As Per-Salafi, Sculpting 3-D Statues is Haram. Music Is Haram. Telling Stories is definitely not haram (IDEK from where you got that). Plus, by 'Cultural Benefits', I mean Balancing-out the Haram From the Halal in cultures.
4: I never stated so.
5:
“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.”
[al-Qasas 28:56]

 

[AnOminous]

LOL ok. "We need to kill you all" edgy as hell, but it's ok, as someone as idiot like yourself, I don't even take that as an 'insult'. Western Civilization will kill itself eventually.

Are you so fucking dumb you missed the preface of that where I said "if you're right?" Apparently, you are.

Learn to read, you goatfucking savage.

I said you were wrong and that your dumbass religion actually will reform, much like the other dumbass Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, have done. They're now domesticated enough they can be tolerated in civilization.

Your shitty religion will do so too, at least I think so.

Now go fuck a goat.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

LOL ok. "We need to kill you all" edgy as hell, but it's ok, as someone as idiot like yourself, I don't even take that as an 'insult'. Western Civilization will kill itself eventually.



1: Yes, every religion believed itself so, just like every political, philosophical, and scientific ideologies thought they were the "true" systems. "Those that refused" was it 'those' or the 'society' ?
2: "when over and over again imams and scholars decry all technological or cultural advancement" Wrong. This is not Christian Monasticism, This is basic Islamic Theology. Basic Islamic Assets like Compasses to know where to pray, or Engineers and Architects to build Mosques is enough to prove that Islam is just as much physical as it is spiritual. Scholars will most likely want to prohibit haram technology , "Sexual Desire" mechanics, "sex toys" , "Illegal Adultery" etc.
3: "when over and over again all culture is spat upon by your imams"
Definition of culture
1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
As per-definition, Islam Allows All Cultures and Traditions. Even the Prophet (saaws) Wore Traditional Arab Clothes etc. Islam Only forbids Haram things in Culture . 'Painting' is not haram. Drawing Lively things (heads i.e nose, mouth, eyes etc.) is. Drawing Non-living things is not. As Per-Salafi, Sculpting 3-D Statues is Haram. Music Is Haram. Telling Stories is definitely not haram (IDEK from where you got that). Plus, by 'Cultural Benefits', I mean Balancing-out the Haram From the Halal in cultures.
4: I never stated so.
5:
“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.”
[al-Qasas 28:56]

1. "Scientific ideology": you don't know what you're talking about. Science has no ideology: it exists to present the facts of the world as they are and create structures that explain it. Something tells me that you're just angry that biology contradicts a literal Creation.
2. Imams have argued on television that smartphones, fidget spinners, areospace programs, the internet, and automobiles are all haram. On a related note: do you think it is possible for man to travel to space?
3. Every culture is based on haram practices. I am Scandinavian; the history of my people for countless thousands of years was transmitted by the Sagas (which are haram, as they were sung) and by the carvings placed upon the menhir (which were also haram, as they almost universally included carvings of living creatures). The culture of the Arabs was transmitted orally through song as well. Without the arts of painting living things and crafting sculptures, we would not know about how many people of the past dressed, how they looked, how fashions changed over time, what they valued, and many other things. If all of these things were destroyed, the thread that connects people to their cultural practices would be severed. This is what I mean when I say that to have a culture is haram. I cannot believe the Supreme Being would want people to sacrifice things that are beautiful and elevate the human spirit. (In reference to story-telling being haram, I have seen imam argue that because lying is haram, telling a story that is not something that happened- that is to say, all of fiction- is haram as well.)
4. You can never say Israel and people can still understand what you mean. We aren't all stupid.

Other things that you must address: learned men of your faith have said that for a man to feel love for his wife is haram, that muslims must hate all non-muslims, that all atheists should be killed, that all Jews should be killed, that celebrating birthdays is haram, that making a "smiley face" like so is haram, that spending any time in lesiure is haram, and that countless other things are haram. This is another way that the form of Islam you say is pure and perfect is an enemy of culture; by these decrees, nine-tenths of all cultural behaviors are haram. In addition, do not many of these rulings contradict the words of Muhammad? From what I know, Muhammad said that Christians and Jews deserve respect as other followers of the Book. Does not a command to hate all non-Muslims and a command to kill all Jews run counter to this?

 

[yukujiab]

As an iranian guy who is british born (have a relatively religious family, most of them are relaxed) here is my thoughts on islam as a whole

I think Islam gets a free pass for the most part. Some of the stuff written in the so called holy book is regressive and not compatible with our western culture. And because its this so called "holy book" we are meant to accept it and not question the "word of god" otherwise we are racist.

First of all, islam isnt a race. Secondly, I think there are good parts/ideas in islam too. Praying can be therapeutic. Ramadam sounds good because it puts your life into perspective and makes you realise you dont have it as bad as some people living across the globe. Giving 2.5% of your wealth to the poor/charity is a nice thing to do. But the idea that we have to just sit back and not criticise ANY aspect of the Quran/Islam is bonkers. Im an aethiest and I will treat their book like anything else, no preferential treatment, Ill praise the good parts and criticise the parts where I do not agree with

I seriously hope it can be reformed, but I think many hardcore "The word of god cannot be changed" will unfortunately resist and kind of suggestion/improvements to Islam. Because it NEEDS reformation no question. Some parts in the Quran is vile and disgusting. And not to mention the book contradicts itself as well.

 

[GethN7]

As an iranian guy who is british born (have a relatively religious family, most of them are relaxed) here is my thoughts on islam as a whole

I think Islam gets a free pass for the most part. Some of the stuff written in the so called holy book is regressive and not compatible with our western culture. And because its this so called "holy book" we are meant to accept it and not question the "word of god" otherwise we are racist.

First of all, islam isnt a race. Secondly, I think there are good parts/ideas in islam too. Praying can be therapeutic. Ramadam sounds good because it puts your life into perspective and makes you realise you dont have it as bad as some people living across the globe. Giving 2.5% of your wealth to the poor/charity is a nice thing to do. But the idea that we have to just sit back and not criticise ANY aspect of the Quran/Islam is bonkers. Im an aethiest and I will treat their book like anything else, no preferential treatment, Ill praise the good parts and criticise the parts where I do not agree with

I seriously hope it can be reformed, but I think many hardcore "The word of god cannot be changed" will unfortunately resist and kind of suggestion/improvements to Islam. Because it NEEDS reformation no question. Some parts in the Quran is vile and disgusting. And not to mention the book contradicts itself as well.

Historically, I'm not optimistic it could be past a certain extent.

There are a grand total of two times I can think of historically when Islam was downright pleasant or at least quite tolerable as a powerful majority: During the best parts of the Abbasid caliphate and Mughal empires.

The former was pretty tolerant by the classical age of Islam standards, to the extent they made a point of it, mostly because the preceding Uumyyad caliphate wasn't, but in their defense, they were conquered from without by the Seljuk Turks.

While there were around though, at most, pay a head tax, and you generally could do your thing in most areas.

The only other time I can think of historically is when the Mughal Empire tried to accommodate the reality of having Islam around in an intensely Hinduist polity, they made admirable strides to bridge the gap and be nice.

And then the hardliners whined they were being too nice, some douchebag named Aurangzeb took power, and the Mughal Empire degenerated once they decided to piss off their own polity instead of meeting them halfway.

Essentially, it's possible, but history militates against it most of the time, since it's not very tolerant by default of its own creed leaning against it (I've read the Qu'ran, albeit in translation, and even then it's pretty intolerant in many regards, even Judaism was willing to entertain the idea of monolatry and Christianity has mercy built in as a defining feature), and it's generally been state supported most of it's existence wherever it has been a majority, and while Turkey made admirable strides courtesy of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk to accommodate the real world as opposed to the wishes of the ulama, even that has limits in modern day.

 

[AnOminous]

I think Islam gets a free pass for the most part. Some of the stuff written in the so called holy book is regressive and not compatible with our western culture. And because its this so called "holy book" we are meant to accept it and not question the "word of god" otherwise we are racist.

First of all, islam isnt a race. Secondly, I think there are good parts/ideas in islam too.

I'm going to disagree on the "free pass" thing. Nothing gets a free pass.

I'll agree on the Islam has some good ideas in it part, though. This isn't a high bar to hurdle, though. Every religion, even really bad ones, have good ideas in them somewhere.

I will agree that it has good ideas comparable to those in Christianity and Judaism, though. At least on some level, Islam seems to respect the other "People of the Book." At least in theory. And at the time it came into existence, it was fairly unique and even catholic (in its dictionary sense) in actually not being racist.

I see no reason it won't eventually grow and mature into something as tolerable as Christianity.

 

[:thinking:]

I'm going to disagree on the "free pass" thing. Nothing gets a free pass.

I'll agree on the Islam has some good ideas in it part, though. This isn't a high bar to hurdle, though. Every religion, even really bad ones, have good ideas in them somewhere.

I will agree that it has good ideas comparable to those in Christianity and Judaism, though. At least on some level, Islam seems to respect the other "People of the Book." At least in theory. And at the time it came into existence, it was fairly unique and even catholic (in its dictionary sense) in actually not being racist.

I see no reason it won't eventually grow and mature into something as tolerable as Christianity.

Islam is not only a religion, it’s also an ideology with instructions on how to create a society.
It’s worse than Christianity, since Jesus was OK with rendering things unto Caesar and all that.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I don't think that there is even the remotest chance of Islam reforming without a near-extinction level event occuring in the Middle East. When your religion is as fucked up as Islam or Judaism, you tend not to be too concerned about reformation, and more concerned about trying not to speak too loudly lest you get burned alive or disappeared in the night.

 

[The Demon]

LOL ok. "We need to kill you all" edgy as hell, but it's ok, as someone as idiot like yourself, I don't even take that as an 'insult'. Western Civilization will kill itself eventually.



1: Yes, every religion believed itself so, just like every political, philosophical, and scientific ideologies thought they were the "true" systems. "Those that refused" was it 'those' or the 'society' ?
2: "when over and over again imams and scholars decry all technological or cultural advancement" Wrong. This is not Christian Monasticism, This is basic Islamic Theology. Basic Islamic Assets like Compasses to know where to pray, or Engineers and Architects to build Mosques is enough to prove that Islam is just as much physical as it is spiritual. Scholars will most likely want to prohibit haram technology , "Sexual Desire" mechanics, "sex toys" , "Illegal Adultery" etc.
3: "when over and over again all culture is spat upon by your imams"
Definition of culture
1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
As per-definition, Islam Allows All Cultures and Traditions. Even the Prophet (saaws) Wore Traditional Arab Clothes etc. Islam Only forbids Haram things in Culture . 'Painting' is not haram. Drawing Lively things (heads i.e nose, mouth, eyes etc.) is. Drawing Non-living things is not. As Per-Salafi, Sculpting 3-D Statues is Haram. Music Is Haram. Telling Stories is definitely not haram (IDEK from where you got that). Plus, by 'Cultural Benefits', I mean Balancing-out the Haram From the Halal in cultures.
4: I never stated so.
5:
“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.”
[al-Qasas 28:56]

i can listen to music because it's not illegal in this country or my religion. your arguments are invalid

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

or Judaism.

Jews tend to be chill tho. Like, there isn't even a comparison.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Jews tend to be chill tho. Like, there isn't even a comparison.

Not the ones who actually observe, or the Kabbalists. Go read the Talmud, then the Hadiths, then tell me which one is worse.

 

[Bassomatic]

I don't want to get too long into this, but reform was left loose by the OP.

A part of Islam is it's a theocratic system , for sure that could get better and improve.

I personally don't think those systems can be healthy or better for human life. So better, yes, but to it's peak or as good as other groups? No. This does have a bias towards my own personal feelings of life fwiw.

 

[AnOminous]

I don't think that there is even the remotest chance of Islam reforming without a near-extinction level event occuring in the Middle East. When your religion is as fucked up as Islam or Judaism, you tend not to be too concerned about reformation, and more concerned about trying not to speak too loudly lest you get burned alive or disappeared in the night.

I don't think Islam is going to be reformed from the outside, like by just shooting at them until they suddenly reform, but like any other system of beliefs, it naturally evolves and will do so in order to survive. Also to @guluboy17 I didn't mean to be as much of a dick as I was, but you were talking shit. Anyway, no disrespect, or only a slight amount of disrespect, intended.

 

[Abang]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a positive reformation. Indonesia is a great evidence of how real moral degradation is among Muslims. I recently read up on an interesting case there, in which the capital's Christian (+ Chinese) governor is thrown to jail for blasphemy against Islam for saying that people shouldn't be fooled by Al-Maidah:52, the one verse that supposedly states whether or not Muslims should elect a non-Muslim to lead their community (he brought up the matter during a election campaign.) The case sparked a lot of debate around both the country's flimsy blasphemy laws and the interpretation of the ayat itself. You can read more about it here.

If only the purists weren't so keen on interpreting the Qur'an literally by discarding all the relevant period-appropriate contexts.

edit: double the's

 

[Bum Driller]

Parts of it, maybe, but muslim world is so fractured that there will probably always exist sick fanatics who want to blow themselves up and shit.

 

[yukujiab]

I'm going to disagree on the "free pass" thing. Nothing gets a free pass.

I'll agree on the Islam has some good ideas in it part, though. This isn't a high bar to hurdle, though. Every religion, even really bad ones, have good ideas in them somewhere.

I will agree that it has good ideas comparable to those in Christianity and Judaism, though. At least on some level, Islam seems to respect the other "People of the Book." At least in theory. And at the time it came into existence, it was fairly unique and even catholic (in its dictionary sense) in actually not being racist.

I see no reason it won't eventually grow and mature into something as tolerable as Christianity.

They do get a free pass ( not on here but with the media and society because people forget that islam is an ideology not race. But if people give islam any sort of criticism (constructive ones not just "deport them all" they get labelled as racists. Therefore, the fear of people/media/authorities speaking out is there.

 

[Sissy]

It would require secular Muslims to forge an entire new edition of their holy book, and to effectively wage a crusade against current day fundamentalists. It would effectively have to become a new religion.

 

[Piss Clam]

I'm not much of a relgious scholar being agnostic, but the first testement was pretty harsh, while the second seemed to me as a reformation into love they neighbor.

One would hope that there would be a person who could rise up in Islam and seperate the religion from poltics. Political islam is what is really killing the religion today and more muslims die by muslim hands than anyone else.

 

[Paralethal]

The good of the wombat is not the good of the parakeet.