Science Atheism Did Not Cause Wokeism

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Source / Archive

Atheism Did Not Cause Wokeism

If the decline of religion really did bring about wokeism, the last place we would expect it to arise is the United States.
Helen Pluckrose, Aug 20, 2024


Isn’t Christianity better than wokeism? Don’t we need shared systems of belief to have community and meaning? Isn’t it clear that atheism has failed? Hasn’t atheism, in fact, brought about wokeism?

These are the questions that are repeatedly being asked of anti-woke atheists. Underlying them is the Substitution Hypothesis of Wokeism. This holds that people need a religious structure to bring them community, purpose and meaning, and, as religion declines, they seize onto another quasi-religious structure to take its place, and this is wokeism. As we (anti-woke atheists) clearly see that wokeism is terrible for society, can we not admit that Christianity was better and consider going back to it?

Absolutely not, no.

The Substitution Hypothesis is coming overwhelmingly from the United States, but if the decline of religion really did bring about wokeism, the last place we would expect it to arise is the United States. The US has degrees of religiosity much closer to that of Iran than the rest of the Anglosphere. When a country has the highest level of religiosity of all the wealthy countries and the highest degree of wokeism, we can be pretty confident that the cause of wokeism is not the decline of religion.

It makes little sense for American anti-wokeists to perceive the choices before us all as Christianity or wokeism when it is quite clear that the US has astoundingly high degrees of both. It makes even less sense to blame atheism for wokeism when the US has so little of it and the countries that are predominantly atheist don’t have the same problem with wokeism.

The facts of the matter do not, of course, speak to the underlying desire to find shared values and community so that the fighting will stop. I empathize with this, but to borrow E.O. Wilson’s famous saying about Marxism, “Nice Idea, wrong species.” We cannot say that shared belief systems have never been tried. They have been the main way of governing societies historically and still are in many countries. A look at countries in which one religion dominates answers the question of whether this reduces conflict or not.

“These countries are mostly Muslim,” some people will say. “Christianity is an entirely different thing.” Again, no. 450,000 denominations of Christianity exist for a reason and that reason is that humans do not do well at sharing belief systems. They branch off and form sects that want to kill each other, often even more than they want to kill people of an entirely different faith. As my background in late medieval Christian history informs me, making everybody believe the same thing does not reduce Culture Wars at all. It just makes them bloodier.

“Now you are being hyperbolic” I hear my imaginary interlocutor say, “Nobody is advocating for medieval attitudes to Christianity or making anybody believe anything.” Well, if you are not, you are speaking about a later form of Christianity softened by liberalism and rendered optional by liberal democracies. If that is the case, can we skip the whole Christianity part and go straight to the liberalism? Especially as God continues to seem not to exist?

You could lead here, America, the one country founded as a liberal democracy with secularism built into its constitution. Rather than trying to get people to all hold a shared belief system, let’s work for a consensus on better managing the different belief systems any society of humans will inevitably have. Let’s strengthen and enforce the liberal principle of, “You may believe what you wish but you must not force it on me.” Let’s expand and enforce the secular principle of separation of Church and State to include separation of wokeism and state (and any other ideology and state).

If we can get enough people to do that, everybody really will be able to find meaning and purpose and community in their own way. I think we should do that.


About the Author​

Helen Pluckrose is a political and cultural writer and commentator who highlights and opposes ideological capture in vital institutions. She is the author of The Counterweight Handbook: Principled Strategies for Surviving and Defeating Critical Social Justice Ideology – at Work, in Schools and Beyond and co-author of Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity – And Why this Harms Everybody.
Above all, Helen just wants people to value evidence-based epistemology and consistently liberal ethics.
 
I don't follow Pluckrose as closely as I do Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay, so I don't feel I know her mindset as well.

That said, she seems to have blind spots when it comes to a lot of this culture war stuff. Sho's one of those who argues that that woketarded cancer can't be Marxist in origin because Marxism is simply an (very dead and very gay) economic system. I can't tell if she's being autistically exact in her language and thinking (that itself can be admirable) or if she's reflexively stanning for leftism's biggest religion.

She's wrong about this, though.
I disagree. Pre-Kitzmiller v. Dover, American "movement" atheists were perfectly content to fight the George W. Bush-era culture wars surrounding evolutionism vs. creationism, fundies vs. fedoras, etc. Woke didn't set in until those culture wars fizzled out (with the atheists largely getting what they wanted), and the question of "Now what?" arose.
There's some truth to this, but an eventual overextending seems to be a universal feature of ideologies, so I'm not sure it's a distinction worth making. Some percentage of the people behind the New Atheist movement were always going to take it too far, and that's because they were not driven by rationality and a respect for truth but by ideological zeal.
While I agree the stereotypical SJW does hold beliefs that are essentially "magical", I'd hesitate to call it a religion when the dogma can turn on a dime. As the meme goes: "I Support The Current Thing!" I don't think a mob or a mass hysteria can be a religion, it's just not the right lens to view it through.
You're right. It's a cult, not a religion.
 
The Soviet Union was exceptionally socially conservative on a lot of issues compared to the West and state atheism was its policy, enforced violently at times. I think it's the lack of a greater ideal to believe as a society in that causes this, not so much lack of religious faith.

Again, with the Soviets - as people lost faith in the promises of Communism and the Soviet system, the problems like alcoholism, crime, vagrancy and drug abuse started to get worse and worse.
 
Both religion and wokism require a firm and unwavering belief in the fantastical, be it in a god, or in troons being actual women, Thats why either can turn violent when challenged.
 
They branch off and form sects that want to kill each other, often even more than they want to kill people of an entirely different faith.
All they have to do is go back to the one true form of Christianity

GNx37FNWQAEQWhs.jpeg
 
The Soviet Union was exceptionally socially conservative on a lot of issues compared to the West and state atheism was its policy, enforced violently at times. I think it's the lack of a greater ideal to believe as a society in that causes this, not so much lack of religious faith.
The Soviet union wasn't one thing, it started out as an attempt to create a psychotic hippie Culture-esque state under Lenin by doing things like unbending homosexuality, banning marriage, and experimenting with non-monetary accounting. Then Lenin died, Stalin came to power, and it turned into an essentially fascist dictatorship that was more nightmarish and dystopian than the actual fascist dictatorships of the era. Then Stalin died, Khruschev came to power a few years later, and actively began to "de-Stalinize" the state. So in practice the USSR was a reflection of the personality of Dear Leader, whoever he happened to be at the time.
Again, with the Soviets - as people lost faith in the promises of Communism and the Soviet system, the problems like alcoholism, crime, vagrancy and drug abuse started to get worse and worse.
Well, the police state and mass murder didn't help.
 
The Soviet union wasn't one thing, it started out as an attempt to create a psychotic hippie Culture-esque state under Lenin by doing things like unbending homosexuality, banning marriage, and experimenting with non-monetary accounting. Then Lenin died, Stalin came to power, and it turned into an essentially fascist dictatorship that was more nightmarish and dystopian than the actual fascist dictatorships of the era. Then Stalin died, Khruschev came to power a few years later, and actively began to "de-Stalinize" the state. So in practice the USSR was a reflection of the personality of Dear Leader, whoever he happened to be at the time.
That's the time that matters though, the brief period in the 1920s really didn't form anything about the country after Stalin took power. But generally speaking, yeah, that's how it went. Each leader liked to come up with their own slogan/ideology and it was pretty much going to be the plan until they died or were otherwise removed from power.

Well, the police state and mass murder didn't help.
People were a lot more tolerant of that as long as their living standards kept going up at a good pace.
 
Wokism derives from Critical Theory which comes from Gramscianism which comes from Marxism which is Rousseauian Hegelianism. Rousseau's general will theory heavily parallels the ideas of gnosis from ancient mystery heresies and modern 'critical consciousness' seen in critical theory. Hegel himself was influenced by mystical heresies like Ioachim's postmillenialism with a touch of hermetic theosophy via the dialectical process furthering the will of the world spirit. Postmilennial pietism played an especially strong role in this; the progressive movement was steeped in postmillenial pietism and all the later progressives did is strip the Christian roots of it and replace it with Fabian Marxism. Atheism didn't cause wokeness, because postmillenial pietism was a religious idea, but it did open a vacuum where wokeness reigned supreme.

All they have to do is go back to the one true form of Christianity

View attachment 6334951
Southern Baptism split from Anabaptism split from Zwinglism split from Lutheranism. The Orthodox and Catholic churches were one main continuous church as early as the second and first century, splitting a millennium later. There were already bishoprics being set up in the second century and most church practices seen in both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church were already written as correct practice in the Didache which was an early second century text.
 
Last edited:
Southern Baptism split from Anabaptism split from Zwinglism split from Lutheranism. The Orthodox and Catholic churches were one main continuous church as early as the second and first century, splitting a millennium later. There were already bishoprics being set up in the second century and most church practices seen in both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church were already written as correct practice in the Didache which was an early second century text.
It's a shitpost.
 
Atheism created the gap and woke ism slithered in. That’s undeniable.
Whether this person likes Christianity or not isn’t the point. The point is that humans in general need a belief system, it’s deeply wired in. She seems to think that unless Christianity is perfect and liked by her it’s not better.
The SJW is a religion;
- it has a concept of original sin (being white or male or other oppressor.)
-it has dogma
- it has mantras (trans women are women!)
- it has tithing (donate to my ko -fi!)
-it has transubstantiation (troons and pooners)
- it has belief policing and enforcement (cancellation for wrongthink.)
-it has a hierarchical structure
It’s about as religious as it could get.
I’d argue that the current wokeism or whatever is more a cult based on some aspects of Cultural Christianity. They like the moral lessons of Christianity, but dislike the frame work and philosophy of it.

Someone put forward this metaphor about the new Atheists that I like. They basically want the fruit, but hate the tree. They got rid of the tree and still expect the fruits. They never even considered that the fruit comes from the tree, just that it came from the super market. Worse is that the tree was also holding up some of the foundation of their house too…

I view the entire push as top down rather than bottom up. Dawkins is an intelligent evolutionary biologist, but he’s kind of a retard philosophically and on history. Fucking Norm MacDonald stumped him.
 
Atheism didn't cause wokeism, but in its "Atheism Plus" incarnation it was pretty close to Patient Zero.
Wokeism existed before. Atheism Plus was a purge by the far left who viewed the libertarians, race-realists etc in the atheist/skeptic community as an invasion of their territory in university campuses. Wokeism had purged university feminists at an earlier stage, for example. The Sokal hoax was motivated by criticising "relativism" and the denial of objective reality as a mandatory point of view in certain parts of academia, and Sokal is an atheist.
Where you think wokeism started will depend on your interests. Some people will think it started with Gamergate, for instance. But really it's something that came about from various university departments being taken over by a specific political ideology.
 
It's the Indiana Jones hot-swap trick but it's faith vs state worship and the boulder is civilization.
 
Yeah! Atheism+ did!

Just kidding. Wokism is basic Marxist grievance mining to disrupt society in order to foment revolution.
 
Last edited:
Regardless, Atheism is cringe. I've never seen an atheist who just lives their life in peace; they always have to be talking about their stupid-ass nonbelief, and they're all democrats who replace God with reddit politics. Just look at the ASMR whore Ozley. Dropped God and immediately wouldn't shut the fuck up about her belief in nothing.

Atheists deserve the rope.
 
Back
Top Bottom