Are we bad people? - Morality and the farms.

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Sometimes I feel like the real reason people here are angry is because the "good guys" are much better at being ruthless sociopathic fascists than they are.
 
it depends on what your idea of bad is. personally i dont think so. we dont really hurt anyone as far as i am concerned. the people who are against us are almost always psychopaths or some form of sexual deviant. i would make the argument that places like twitter or tumblr are full of worse people. all we do is laugh at people. if those people do not wish to be laughed at they can simply stop doing dumb shit. its very simple actually.
 
I'm shocked at how reflective the thread is. Bravo. Yet again KiwiFarms does the worst thing imaginable by ruining the wider internet by shining a blacklight on it like the filthy bordello it is.

To answer OP, you're a faggot define good and evil first, please? I'll elaborate.

Not being able to arrive at anything but "sentiments and vibes" when you scratch away at it is deeply frustrating. It's a feeling. There's no way to measure with instruments or smash atoms and have moral answers come out, just particles and forces that obey autistic math. Sometimes for some people you can get a moral argument out, but it's almost always vibes, and even if you have good logic you have to have some axiomatic leap, there's some value to be maximized - and of course what value trumps the other if two values compete?

The farms has driven me farther right than I thought was humanly possible, and then finally in another direction entirely. I'm at the point I deeply believe to even discuss morality and ethics one first has to establish a sense of meaningful free will.

In short, meaningful free will is if someone can think and reason for themselves, reflect on their knowledge and seek more, and go against social pressures, at least internally*, if their personal moral decisions based on their own values and knowledge go against that of the wider community they are a part of.
*Obviously if you have a gun to your head or you're in a cult you have to play along. Also, indeed, many in either situation does not have meaningfully free will.

I do not think most people have meaningfully free will. I think most people avoid moral reasoning and especially avoid moral decision making. They go with the flow. They follow what's popular to avoid trouble due to instinct. If everyone acts like something new is right or wrong, they pick it up osmotically, thoughtlessly, and will just blink if you point out that they used to think otherwise.

In light of this, how can we discuss the goodness or badness of typical people when they're not exercising any agency and might not have any to exercise? How can we discuss the notion of how good or bad we are when the benchmark to compare to is a population defined by allegiance to one group or another, and how well they follow the group's leadership? To them, good and bad is how compliant they are with the groupthink? It's conformity, nothing more.

Obedience, submissiveness, obsequiousness - this isn't morality, it's being a little bitch.

Meaningful free will to me is to really think based off of what you know and can go find out, being true to your values, and the ends of others, not just yourself or those like you. It's to not reduce someone to mere instrumentality to your own ends, but instead to look out for them as much as yourself, and go against the grain if you think it's wrong, to risk not fitting in or worse if it came to it, if society around you is stagnating, or worse, going in a bad direction.

Kiwi Farms has plenty of people here who just want to laugh and gawk, or fit in and go with the flow - look at people who take sides in bullshit arguments over cows, or two cows going at it. Fucking hell. Whatever.

Kiwi Farms also has people who want to think and struggle to understand, who want to come up with moral answers to the problems we face instead of taking the easy way out to fit in, at cost to their selves, for the sake of others.

It is my belief that people who really think, hard, face the coldness of reality when it gets this dark and frozen, and struggle to do something about it, whatever they can, even if they don't agree with me, is a meaningfully free willed person who is acting in good faith to do good as best as they can understand it. To do this openly in this Zeit is commendable and arguably foolish. Just look at Null. Fucking shit, the guy's been tarred and feathered worse than an actual monster for doing nothing but showing the world back to itself without the filter of censorship.

Don't feel bad for not fitting into a mold full of anachronisms that largely come down to what worked in the past, for the people in charge. Look honestly at yourself on the inside, and at that Kiwi in the mirror, and do the best you know to do. And if you really honestly tried your best, you're at least a better person than most faggots out there just fitting in and throwing family under the bus for a line in the sand that was just drawn a few moments ago on fucking twitter.
 
Second post because I don't want this conflated with my thesis of what makes a person morally good and meaningfully moral in the first place.

I think that such people should, indeed, do their best to influence other people, since they're already being thought for and influenced by people with merely selfish, manipulative goals in mind. To these influencers (politicians, scammers, selfish pricks who want to change the public perception of their fucked behaviors - the whole lot) morality is just an instrument of control people, who are their selves mere instruments. If you make regular people feel like the right thing to do is what you, you've won in the deepest way.

One part I do not want to be overlooked or missed is this: if you're a meaningfully free willed person, and you have some kind of a moral system figured out, you need to think for people who refuse to, or are unable to, think for themselves.

I want the reader here to reflect deeply on this. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me why. Carefully think about "refuse to, or are unable to". I'm not saying you should get on a high horse just to be a bossy asshole here. I am saying that if people are following shitty people and you're at least less shitty, or preferably the least shitty person around with any meaningful influence, you should act on it. If you can say with a straight face you're at least somewhat good, for lack of anyone else who is trying to influence them to a good end for their own sake, give it a fucking try.

It should be clear that the same predicate of meaningful freedom applies here too, hence why I said "meaningful influence." If you're a wonderfully rational autist who is about as persuasive as am honest used car salesman, stick to sperging and try to help someone who is persuasive have a better basis for others.

My own influence IRL is limited. I steer people I'm close to - friends, family - as much as I can, at the rate they can handle things, mostly by exposing contradictions or bullshit and logical consequences. In some cases, however, it's only when shit blows up in their face and they're personally hurt that they finally snap out of things. I certainly can't just gather a crowd out loud like some revival preacher, and I don't dare broach this shit at work, but I do test waters and try, and that's all I'm asking you to do.

Understand your limits; push them as far as you can. Think, then act.
Understand the limits of others; lead those who must be led, help those who can think to think.
Don't bitch out.
Don't sink to the level of someone who just feels out sentiments and vibes and takes the easy way out.

Then again, who the hell is here right now reading this, except our lurking enemies, who takes the easy way out?
 
Xentrilius said:
Impossible to answer really. That’s not a cop out this site is filled with so many different varying viewpoints judging people as a whole seems pretty much impossible.
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You are a bad person, simple as
 
Alright here are some bad things the kiwifarms has done:

* General pettiness

* Mild levels of slander

* Compliance with and perpetuating doxing

Okay, here are some good things:

* Taking a stance against degeneracy and disgusting sodomites like keffals

* Taking a stance against these insufferable and probably evil people on the internet.

Think of it this way, if kiwifarms weren't around, people like Keo the wolf would still be active, many abusive nasty people would go unchecked and there would be one space on the internet that is free from the abominable liberal establishment.

Kiwifarms wasn't ever made for good intentions, that's a fact, but through sheer happenstance, it found itself on the right side of things. Liberals always love to talk about "the right side of history" well, here we are.
 
No. The most morally grey thing done here is compiling bad opsec into doxes which could theoretically be used maliciously, but I can't think of a time this has happened. Otherwise, everyone here is here because they acted and continue to act retarded in public. Those that stop acting retarded stop being talked about
 
Buoyant Armiger said:
There is no single answer, we don't all have the exact same motivations for using the farms.
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Correct, that’s why it’s so hard to judge.So many users are radically differing in views, it’s a complete clusterfuck of every kind of ideology you can imagine. It’s impossible to really group everyone as a group. We’re all individuals so review each user on their own merits.
 
Buoyant Armiger said:
Personally as far as laughing goes I'm mostly here to look at detestable troons taking the L's they rightfully deserve. It's funny but also kinda cathartic. I don't know if that makes me evil and it's not my place to judge.
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As long as your laughing I don't see any problem with it. That was one of the reasons that finally tipped me over the edge from lurker to account holder.
 
Sorry for doublepost. This user posted the moment I did and I cannot easily add their quote to my post above:
Xentrilius said:
Correct, that’s why it’s so hard to judge.So many users are radically differing in views, it’s a complete clusterfuck of every kind of ideology you can imagine. It’s impossible to really group everyone as a group. We’re all individuals so review each user on their own merits.
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This is dumb. You can certainly group users by where they interact and post. Yes, there are different ideologies, but you can't say it's impossible. Of course I will scrutinize retarded niggers when they spout-off bullshit, kind of like what I am doing right now.
 
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