I see brownie walking to the kitchen with a monkey holding the cymbals just in the right place to cover his balls as he seems to float around his waist line.
Yeah I did go and then was happily solving puzzles
M
19:50
Michichael
Oh California
19:50
New law signed by moonbeam requires that by the end of 2019 all publicly-traded corporations headquartered in the state must have at least 1 woman on their board, and by the end of 2021 they must have 2 if the board has 5 seats, or 3 if the board has 6+ seats.
19:51
Now if you're a successful woman you won't know if you made it there based on merit or are the token boardmember! Yay communism!
T?
19:52
Tempest 🦊➡️☣Q/S-Iso2020☣
Or you could just accept the fact that you're the best woman for the job they had to pick
19:53
Otherwise they'd never even give you the chance
M
19:53
Michichael
In general, if you're qualified, you get the role.
19:53
Unless the government gets in the way.
19:55
Some of the best engineers I've hired/worked with were supremely qualified women that blew the male candidates out of the water
T?
19:55
Tempest 🦊➡️☣Q/S-Iso2020☣
Yeah, but the glass ceiling is real
KZ
19:56
Kes Zerda
Incorporation is a privilege, not a right, publicly traded doubly so. If you want the benefits, you've got to accept the responsibilities.
They're assuming an otherwise qualfied person is being passed over because of mysogonism. Which is certainly the case sometimes - but not always. And by definition when there's more candidates than positions, under this law a qualfied male or transgender candidate is now excluded from the position simply because they're not female.
I feel like measures like this only create more racism in the end, because then people will assume a woman on the board is unqualified and only there because of the law, which amplifies the exact thing it's trying to combat :/
I mean that's exactly what happens with most diversity hires from a practical perspective. My company just lost 50k because the token gender studies hire in accounting without an accounting degree fell for a phishing attack
I think there should be legal protections and requirements to ensure there's a fair and balanced selection process based on merit - with appropriate controls that ensure that the process is standardized and truly associated with merit, not subconcious bias
20:05
But mandating a quota of any given race, gender, or identity?
20:06
It's unfair to the person being hired who now has to wonder if they really were the most qualified candidate, and to the team that has to pick up the slack if they weren't.
Michi: it's an issue in dealing with any sort of generational problem. How do you fix the screwups of the past so they don't continue to affect the future. Additionally, Nearly all of these quotas and the likes are for if you want to qualify for certain tax rebates and other privileges. If the company didn't want to go for those, they don't need to follow those rules.
I'm fine with there being an incentive. I'm not fine with there being a penalty for failing to do so. If the incentive is too large that not taking advantage of it is noncompetitive, then it's not a good law.
20:12
I feel like if you want more of a demographic's representation in a target role, increase the supply, don't set a quota.
KZ
20:13
Kes Zerda
One of the reasons for laws like this is to encourage companies to take the risk of employing from the larger supply.
M
20:16
Michichael
Hardly. If you've got a large supply of qualified workers and an unqualified, but favored class, the laws make you hire the unqualified person before you can hire the qualified people
20:16
I've seen it first hand.
20:17
It's why I'm opposed to these affirmative action type laws
20:18
When I can't get a qualified person because we have to hire a token minority that isn't remotely qualified and isn't even capable of learning because tehy've never had to learn since they skate by on affirmative status, it just increases our workload and frustrates the business from being able to operate more effeciently.
KZ
20:18
Kes Zerda
Again, if you want to be eligible for certain contracts. There is no legal penalty for doing otherwise.
M
20:18
Michichael
Yes, there is
KZ
20:18
Kes Zerda
They agreed to certain rules, and they now have to follow them.
M
20:18
Michichael
There's plenty of legal penalty
20:18
E.g. this law that jwas just passed
20:19
if you EXIST in california and have a board, you have a quota
KZ
20:19
Kes Zerda
Again, incorporation, and being public, are both privileges.
M
20:19
Michichael
To get business insurance in CA, you have to have a quota of employees
20:19
being able to do business is not a privilege
KZ
20:19
Kes Zerda
There is nothing mandating that to do business you have to be a public corporation.
M
20:20
Michichael
The point of government is to enable the secure ability to provide services to society and operate a business, along wiht protecting the community from overreaching business pracices.
20:20
it defacto is for some businesses.
KZ
20:20
Kes Zerda
Yes, and incorporation is a privilege that in exchange for a limitation on liability, you have to behave in certain ways. If you don't want to behave in those ways, then don't incorporate.
M
20:22
Michichael
To be able to get funding, or the ability to even take out certain loans, or grow beyond a certain size, you kinda HAVE to incorporate
20:22
That's a falicious argument and you know it kes
20:23
It's de-facto a mandated quota.
KZ
20:23
Kes Zerda
there is nothing that says you have to behave that way. You chose to want to grow larger, to borrow money, etc
M
20:23
Michichael
That's how business WORKS.
AN
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20:23
Michichael
The government getting in the way of that with arbitrary, non-business, non-socially benefitial regulations just stifles it.
20:24
And that's gonna result in direct detriments to the communities that depend on the economic benefits of those businesses.
20:24
REducing the overall job market to only companies large enough to afford to be able to eat the de-facto financial penalty of doing business, stifling out ALL competition
KZ
20:25
Kes Zerda
programs like affirmative action exist /because/ they have been proving through multiple studies to work
M
20:25
Michichael
It's shit like that why walmart can exist and all the mom and pops disappeared.
Kes: When your metric is "hire more of tehse people" and not "Hire more qualified people" or "Cost effective hiring", sure.
20:29
That's like saying banning cars and trucks is the best economic plan ever because it resulted in more employement for people to manually carry products, without considering or analyzing the growth retardation, wage supression, or other nontrivial, immutable economic factors because they aren't convenient to the result.
I'm familiar with that study. Key flaw in it being that it just checked metrics of hiring, not whether or not the hires were effective. There's no real studies that show two businesses - one subject to the regulatoin, one not - and seeing which one grows/operates more effectively. None that I'm aware of at least.
20:34
Huh, that's not the study I thought it was
20:35
lol. Banking industry, where it's impossible to fail at your job. That's not a very effective study.
20:35
Anything with sales, tech, or having people do more than be human filing cabinets I'd place more merit on
KZ
20:36
Kes Zerda
There's shittons of sales and tech in banking.
M
20:36
Michichael
It also didn't control for natural growth during the time period.
20:38
I'd like to see some side by sides of businesses subject to the regulation vs not.
20:38
I've literally enver seen anyone in business with a positive view of these requirements.
Hard to understand when only a few weeks ago, the banks that I stand guard at only just upgraded their terminal computers for the bankers and tellers to these low grade HP computers with (what I can only hope are somehow secure) Window's 10 installs.
KZ
20:41
Kes Zerda
You've shown your own bias with your statement that businesses aren't a "real industry"
I'm saying banking industry in the middle of a massive economic growth probably isn't the best example of economic impact of the regulatoin on a business when it isn't controlled for.
KZ
20:42
Kes Zerda
he does control for it though. He's measuring relative performance
BW
20:43
Brownie Wotter
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He doesn't control for it at all before or after the affirmative action regulations take effect or compare it with companies not subject to the regulation. Affirmative action certianly has the positive effect of increasing employment of hte minority group. I'm saying that it has a negative growth impact on the business, on wages, and employment growth for the regulated companies.
KZ
20:45
Kes Zerda
do you have any statistics to show it?
20:45
or are you basing it on out of context situations you've seen/heard of without more macro-scale effects
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M
20:48
Michichael
In academia, the negative effects are clear and found in Datcher Loury and Garman as well as in Kane's study. Most studies I've seen show correlation with negative overal acadamic performance by lowering admission standards due to affirmative action. I need to find a few on the business side.
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KZ
20:55
Kes Zerda
Kane doesn't show that though, Michi. Additionally, race decisions in colleges have always been a secondary consideration -- that given two equally qualified people, the minority is chosen. It's not about saying this qualified white person doesn't get in to make way for this unqualified black person.
M
20:57
Michichael
If it was about equally qualified people folks woujldn't have a problem with it. The fact that ivy league schools were putting -250 weights on asian SAT scores and +150 on black SAT scores kinda belies that.
20:58
And I'm saying that explicitly what I've seen in business is that artificial favoritism towards unqualified people. Look up the mismatch theory. That was the topic of my term paper
21:00
And again, I'm fine with anti-discrimination laws and blind hiring based on merits. I'm not fine with forced quotas that affirmative action cause. Lemme finish this pull
KZ
21:01
Kes Zerda
Which is caused in large part by corporations doing the bare minimum to try to get the benefits of the programs, rather than trying to make an effort to actually include the ideals of the programs in the businesses.
I remember there were complaints about Google allowing dogs on campus but not cats
M
21:03
Michichael
Kes: You keep saying that they're trying to take advantage of a benefit. They're not. They're mandated to do so or face harsh penalties in excess of the salary of a token hire
21:03
Employment laws require the quotas. That's what I'm objecting to
KZ
21:04
Kes Zerda
They don't. If you want access to certain programs, sure, but you don't have to go towards those programs
M
21:05
Michichael
I don't think we're talkinga bout the same things.
21:05
Or you're not understanding the difference between affirmative action and anti-discrimination
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M
21:19
Michichael
19%...
21:19
fuckin' g'huun
21:24
Frustrating that a lot of these analysis are studying static industries and academia and not things like tech and manufacturing.
KZ
21:25
Kes Zerda
Because a static industries and academia make up significant portions of the economy, and are easier to study, as there are many fewer unrelated variables to take into consideration
T
21:26
Tamino
duude. if you work in the static industry, do you get to touch people and zap them all day??
21:26
i wanna work in the static industry, man! that sounds cool! what about dryer loads full of socks?
Though different negative impact than what I was referring to
KZ
21:27
Kes Zerda
paywalled
M
21:27
Michichael
Fuckin' wsj
21:29
Basically, it says that selecting based only on race instead of socioeconomic capability or meritocracy led to a lot of acceptances but increased failing and dropouts.
21:29
Research on law schools by one of us (Richard Sander)—hotly disputed by some scholars when it was published in 2005 by the Stanford Law Review and now confirmed by economist Doug Williams—found that mismatch essentially doubled the rate at which blacks and Hispanics failed bar exams. Under existing preference policies, only one in three blacks entering law school graduates and passes the bar on his or her first attempt (compared with two in three whites). Simply by reducing mismatch, we could get this ratio up to one in two.
21:30
I'll pm you the full article
21:31
*yawns*
21:32
But yeah, the impact in education is someone fails. Easy to take metrics on. Impact in business is muddled because you can't get down to that granularity of effectiveness of an individual employee from a study perspective. Lots of confounding factors.
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21:41
And we're callin' it
21:41
fffffffff
21:41
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21:41
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KZ
21:43
Kes Zerda
I think the article's showing more don't be diverse just to check a box, which I think is the problem with policy decisions -- peoples' tendencies to do the bare minimum to get some perceived benefit rather than work towards of a deeper understanding as to why a goal such as diversity is important
21:43
I think that quotas, when they're too high, yeah, they cause problems. More nuanced programs, like princeton's, don't show the problems with washout, etc.
I think we agree that checking a box is the root cause of hte problem. That's what affirmative action causes. Anti-discrimination is what I think we both want - ensuring that qualfied applicants aren't rejected because of their minority status instead of giving them preferential treatment despite a lack of qualification
21:44
It's a complicated socioeconomic concept that can't be broken down into soundbites
KZ
21:45
Kes Zerda
I think there's a place for some affirmative action, in measured quantities. Like school enrollment, it should be more comparable to if someone was in student council or not rather than hundreds of points on the SAT>
M
21:45
Michichael
Agreed. :3
KZ
21:46
Kes Zerda
Or, like the paper on california construction contracts, giving a preference to small businesses would have many of the same effects, but without the checkbox problems that required subcontracting has.
I'm wanting to improve, I just don't like taking the beaten path to get there because it feels like it's too occupied, and the signal to noise ratio is huge.
11:41
*wonders if he could get the topic pinned for the day, has his doubts it will work though*
Say that I'm talking to someone and they develop an interest in me, and I say it do something that makes them even more so and I find myself in a position that I can't handle. I generally don't know what to do past that point, and my brain starts grasping at straws and goes down the "what if" train of thought.
12:00
I'm not inexperienced intimately, but I can count the number of those experiences on just a little over one hand.
Being dishonest will hurt them much more in the long run
12:05
Plus, you come first
AN
12:06
Azurus Nova
I mean hell, I really upset people in here when I left the chat those handful of times. I didn't know that was happening, and when I was told if it, I was upset myself.
In the frame of mind of someone who struggles with anxiety sure, in my current state of "me first but be kind and honest to others" no
12:09
I've straight up told fwbs that I'm not as excited to see them as I used to be. What am I supposed to do, lie and have a terrible time? Rejection is something that everyone has to deal with, and it sucks, but it's better than being lead on.
Specifically, I want to have a roommate and not drive 2 hours to work every day
F?
15:00
FoxTrash 🍞👌
It was on Granada right next to the school
BT
15:00
Birthday This Sunday!
Live in oakland then
F?
15:00
FoxTrash 🍞👌
You can find stuff
15:00
It's just difficult
BW
15:01
Brownie Wotter
I would rather not live here at all than have a two hour commute
15:01
People who do that are insane
Mɹ
15:01
Majik ɹɐǝq
You're speaking greek to me. When I go somewhere I get in my car and put the address into the GPS then I zone out until I arrive. I have no idea what "Granada" is or that it even has a high school.
It's because generations of their family live here
15:03
All their friends are here
15:03
And I can really understand that because I tried to move to the midwest and it was awful, I moved back in less than a year
15:05
The reason I HAD to move back was because the air pressure changes caused me to have migraines and dizzy spells...
BW
15:05
Brownie Wotter
I mean the midwest is awful, that's why I moved away, but spending all of your free time in a car sounds worse
F?
15:07
FoxTrash 🍞👌
^
BW
15:08
Brownie Wotter
I was reading an article about people who spend 3 hours a day commuting from Los Banos to Menlo Park and I thought it sounded like the dumbest thing ever and don't have any sympathy for that
F?
15:08
FoxTrash 🍞👌
I lived in the Midwest for most my life, while it was bad it wasn't intolerable
15:08
I didn't get shot so thats good
BW
15:08
Brownie Wotter
Yeah it wasn't awful. Just incredibly boring and you can't go outside most of the year
F?
15:08
FoxTrash 🍞👌
^
15:08
That's the worst
15:08
Being cooped up inside
Mɹ
15:10
Majik ɹɐǝq
But what I will not miss is:
- Busted water mains just gushing into a ditch and running into the sewer, the whole time I was there it was never fixed - Flagrant and blatant racism and xenophobia in casual conversation - Having people ask me to explain why I'm bisexual - Fast food clerks telling me to have 'a blessed day' or 'god bless' heavily implying I should be monotheistic - Having to change my tires for winter and summer - Every restaurant serves only American food that is bad for you - There is no real sushi, it's all baked rolls - There are no ethnic restaurants, just "asian" restaurants that serve freezer bag chinese food and hot dogs - Black smoke pouring out of giant pickup trucks - The baseline assumption that everyone is poor - Having to explain basic concepts to people that I always took for granted because of the quality of school education
15:10
Oh and also every furmeet is at a gun range or campground
BW
15:10
Brownie Wotter
Lmao
Mɹ
15:10
Majik ɹɐǝq
And thirsty furries. Oh my god the thirsty furries.
BW
15:10
Brownie Wotter
Telling a bunch of furries to shoot animals... sounds legit
15:11
They're thirsty because it's so dry there 😂
Mɹ
15:11
Majik ɹɐǝq
3-4 furries a week messaging me, asking me to drive 75 miles out into the woods, pick them up, drive them 65 miles into the nearest city, buy them dinner, take them to an event, then drive them back home to their parents house.
F?
15:11
FoxTrash 🍞👌
All there is in Midwest is thirst
15:12
Because nothing else to do
15:12
Besides drugs
15:12
And sometimes both
Mɹ
15:12
Majik ɹɐǝq
It was never 'hey lets go out and do something together' it was 'come get me and do something for me.'
Different reasons here. I'll admit sometimes I call up one of my better off friends and say "I can't afford to go out this week, can you buy me dinner or something."
15:14
And when I have a little money I do the same for someone else.
15:15
It's mostly because the rent consumes most of my income.
15:15
If I didn't have that rent bill I'd be pretty well off.
15:19
I'm done being judgemental for the day. Somebody give me a hug.
I would if I still lived in the south bay, someone from a depression support group I went to told me there was also a depression support group there
Mɹ
15:33
Majik ɹɐǝq
Yes there is one
AN
15:34
Azurus Nova via @gif
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Mɹ
15:34
Majik ɹɐǝq
I would've gone in my 20s but I haven't been clinicaly depressed for decades
BW
15:34
Brownie Wotter
It was on Saturdays though when I'm usually busy... although I probably wouldn't have gone if it was on the weeknights either because going to SJ in rush hour is a nightmare
I lived in Mountain View at the time and it still took an hour to get there
Mɹ
15:37
Majik ɹɐǝq
Social anxiety largely stops me from hanging out with individuals so I try to keep myself involved in group acitvities and volunteer gigs so I don't feel isolated.
T
15:44
That_One_Wofie
Applying for colleges
AN
15:44
Azurus Nova via @gif
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Is that a feature of the gay male community as well?
M
18:34
Michichael
The fandom's very inviting and welcoming to those lacking self-confidence because it lets them be themselves. There's a higher percentage of socially awkward people in the fandom in general as a result - and that also tends to bleed over to being submissive or unsure of onesself sexually.
18:34
Not that I know of. The gay community has plenty of agressive/self-confident males
18:35
power bottoms, doms, tops, etc
AN
18:36
Azurus Nova
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R
18:36
Reason the LA Quail
It’s hard for me to see it because I tend to individualize more than most
i feel like there's an entire generation of furs now who would not feel this way. i am confused by this. cuz for me it's sort of, well, the whole point. being an animal.
Because to most of them 'sub' means 'lie back and moan intermittently while your partner does all the work of getting you both off all the time no exceptions'
Well yeah, it's definitely not everyone. But for those who are... *nuzzle*
T
21:53
Tamino
*nuzzle* *nuzzle*
21:54
for me there's also an element of wanting to learn from the wolf. letting the wolf spirit, whatever that is, teach me a better way of living than the way i grew up with.
21:54
and that's kind of a submissive feeling in its own right.
21:55
"i tried to learn the human ways and it didn't lead anywhere i wanted to be. please teach me the animal ways. i want to learn."
BW
21:55
Brownie Wotter
The children of wolves started Rome, that's all I'm saying
the part that spoke to me the most was not a part that had anything to do with wolves actually :-) it was how all the farmers got together and it didn't matter who "owned" what, if someone needed something and the group had it, it was theirs.
the telegram group for it is 18+ but the event itself is all ages.
BW
23:07
Brownie Wotter
Ugh sounds like a crowds and loud noises event
23:07
But thanks for sharing
T
23:11
Tamino
i have my own grumpy feelings about the ways it's being announced, but yeah, i mostly wanted to make sure people here knew about it.
23:12
i love the *idea* of a rave. the abstract concept. :-) like, i love the idea of an outdoor setting where nobody's really drunk or doing any kind of drugs other than just getting high on the music itself, and where you can wander off, and it's pitch dark but you never ever worry about getting lost because all you'd have to do is follow the music back.
23:13
i know most raves aren't actually like that. but i love the idea.
BW
23:16
Brownie Wotter
I get high on the music itself when it's jazz
23:16
Just get lost in the sea of chords...
23:17
That seems like a neat idea though, but it would require quire a large area
23:22
And I would be at the back because sensitive ears
23:22
*twitch*
T
23:22
Tamino
i'd be curious if you felt like linking to some jazz you think is worthwhile, sometime.
23:23
i have no idea if my brain is capable of appreciating jazz or not. but i think i trust you to pick the good stuff.
i admit that my brain basically gets nothing out of that. but i trust you that there must be something there. so i wonder if it's possible for my brain to learn that language.
BW
23:42
Brownie Wotter
Well... that is a complicated one. There is a reason most jazz players start with the blues and not this. This one changes chords every measure
i listened to that one and then the first one again. i dunno. i don't have anything intelligent to say about it. :-P
00:02
i think it's probably good for my brain to be pondering this stuff though. like, i can tell my brain "this music has value. i know this because brownie said so. if you don't see the value, then just sit with it and keep listening."
00:02
thank you for that.
BW
00:07
Brownie Wotter
Yep, lots of people figure out jazz eventually just by listening. It's even the best way to improve as a jazz musician.
00:08
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Lynel invited Lynel
T
00:30
Tamino
woof! :-)
00:30
welcome :-)
L
00:31
Lynel
Hello
T
00:32
Tamino
how goes? i should probably be in bed, but i'm not :-)
L
00:33
Lynel
Same, I just joined telegram today trying to make new friends and even go to meet ups! Sadly however, I am not 17 and read the rules that I have to be 18
T
00:34
Tamino
mrff. yeah. although they sort of opened up a loophole lately. there's a telegram "channel" (which is different from a "group") that posts a copy of all the stuff on the meetup.com group.
What does this mean exactly that there’s a lookhole and u put channel in quotes n group
00:35
I’m just a little confused
T
00:36
Tamino
sorry!! i just mean, yeah, you're right, you can't join the meetup.com group, but there's at least a way now to see everything that's on it, without actually joining on the website.
L
00:36
Lynel
Ohh
00:37
Is there anyway I could go to ones that allow people who are almost 18 XD
T
00:37
Tamino
a "channel" on telegram is like a twitter feed. you can't chat there, you can just read whatever "they" (the people that run it) post there.
L
00:37
Lynel
Aw I se
00:37
See*
T
00:37
Tamino
sure. and/or you can hang around here in this group too :-)
00:37
we don't bite!
L
00:38
Lynel
Sweet. I’m not saying the meet ups here because I understand that there are rules. I am asking if there are maybe other groups that allow people like me to go to the meets
