<2022-06-30T11:51:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: inflating your follower count from all instances :) 
<2022-06-30T11:51:43.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-06-30T11:51:52.000Z> hazlin: well, at least this one has chat
<2022-06-30T11:53:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah but following people from other instances doesn't seem to work with pleroma-fe 
<2022-06-30T11:54:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: collapsitarian has the same issue, but they provide an alternative frontend 
<2022-06-30T11:54:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but everything seems buggy there 
<2022-06-30T11:55:25.000Z> hazlin: hmm if I understand correctly, there are some stand-alone clients you can run
<2022-06-30T11:55:33.000Z> hazlin: P is always talking about "bloat"
<2022-06-30T11:57:25.000Z> hazlin: I've seen "GNU/r000t" talk about, the desktop app he uses, allows him to watch multiple local feeds and other features 
<2022-06-30T11:57:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, that's probably what i will do 
<2022-06-30T11:58:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: nur die harten komm in garten 
<2022-06-30T12:21:54.000Z> hazlin: Avatar the last data bender
<2022-06-30T12:22:01.000Z> hazlin: request received and accepted
<2022-06-30T12:22:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: done via sengi 
<2022-06-30T12:23:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: dunno if that's the one you meant, but it does do the multi timeline stuff 
<2022-06-30T12:41:12.000Z> hazlin: I didn't exactly know the name, other than P referring people to use "bloat" as a client.
<2022-06-30T12:42:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ahhhh 
<2022-06-30T12:43:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's the name XD
<2022-06-30T12:45:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: guess i'll try that one next
<2022-06-30T12:59:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how @p manages to get serious programming done while being as active on fedi as he is will never cease to amaze me
<2022-06-30T13:00:04.000Z> hazlin: for sure, though I think he just interacts when he is taking a break
<2022-06-30T23:40:51.000Z> hazlin: in my casual archiving of useful git libraries I came across github.com/SanderMertens/flecs
<2022-06-30T23:41:30.000Z> hazlin: it boasts lightning fast, lock free, management of millions of entities, using as many threads as you can throw at it
<2022-06-30T23:41:41.000Z> hazlin: which... seems impressive at first
<2022-06-30T23:43:37.000Z> hazlin: but after some thought, I'm thinking, if you sort things into buckets with your own logic, that is, pre-compute buckets to apply functions against or to split among processors, you don't have any use for something like flecs 
<2022-07-01T09:57:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh 
<2022-07-01T09:57:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this does look interesting
<2022-07-01T10:02:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: unless you do something like factorio, the logic of your entities is not what eats into performance
<2022-07-01T10:03:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the biggest problem is usually that the component model is too inflexible, or ill defined for more interesting functionality 
<2022-07-01T10:04:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( that's from my exprience with unity ) 
<2022-07-01T10:21:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm not quite sure what you mean with the bucket sorting
<2022-07-01T10:56:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the more i think about itthe queries in this system seem very similar to the thing i am working on https://github.com/elkawee/UShell( not quite usable yet - hence no description or documentation ) 
<2022-07-01T11:00:33.000Z> hazlin: Hmm, what I mean is, they seem to be proposing.for db of entities -> X, filter by attribute X -> Y, execute F(Y).And, I mean to say.Y is pre-allocated to its own list via program logic -> F(Y)
<2022-07-01T11:02:02.000Z> hazlin: let me make that a bit better:
<2022-07-01T11:02:03.000Z> hazlin: Hmm, what I mean is, they seem to be proposing.for db of entities -> X, filter X* by attribute -> Y, execute F(Y).And, I mean to say.Y is pre-allocated to its own list via design* logic -> F(Y)
<2022-07-01T11:05:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the set Y, of things that match $attribute changes at runtime 
<2022-07-01T11:07:04.000Z> hazlin: I agree, Y changes at run time, but I think Y could be updated when that change occurs.
<2022-07-01T11:08:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ok 
<2022-07-01T11:09:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i think you come at it from the perspective of "i have a concrete game in mind and want to build an engine just for this one game"
<2022-07-01T11:09:33.000Z> hazlin: but, I see that unity and godot both use this entity thing, so maybe it really is better xD
<2022-07-01T11:09:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: where this entity component stuff comes from "how to design a generic game engine that doesn't suck as much"
<2022-07-01T11:10:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no they use "component object model" 
<2022-07-01T11:10:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and it sucks to work with >___< 
<2022-07-01T11:11:40.000Z> hazlin: wait, so how is an entity frame work different from a component object model?It seemed like, when I used them I was very much encountering a "for db of entities -> X, filter X* by attribute -> Y, execute F(Y)" kind of workflow
<2022-07-01T11:12:19.000Z> hazlin: it was making my skin crawl that many of the solutions evolved, querying the whole node tree of objects 
<2022-07-01T11:15:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i don't know this flecs thing is implemented under the hood, there certainly is a way to not iterate over every object 
<2022-07-01T11:15:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this is probably exactly what you meant XD 
<2022-07-01T11:18:05.000Z> hazlin: maybe, tbh, I don't understand UE Unity or Godot with much depth... sort of why I redirected into looking at openGL, feel like I'll understand what is happening xD 
<2022-07-01T11:18:17.000Z> hazlin: anyway, tell me more about your UShell project
<2022-07-01T11:18:25.000Z> hazlin: I am not sure what I am looking at xD
<2022-07-01T11:18:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it spawns a server process inside unity 
<2022-07-01T11:19:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and then it gives you a remote shell
<2022-07-01T11:19:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the shell has a query language
<2022-07-01T11:20:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that allows you to read and write over the memory of the c# process as if it was a database
<2022-07-01T11:21:08.000Z> hazlin: what would a use case look like?
<2022-07-01T11:22:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: example : >> :Foo .bar == 3 > :MeshRenderer .mesh .vertices 
<2022-07-01T11:24:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: would filter for all objects that have a component of type Foo for which the field bar is 3 then all direct children of it that have a mesh renderer and dumps the vertices in json to stdout 
<2022-07-01T11:25:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: same goes for writing 
<2022-07-01T11:26:06.000Z> hazlin: so, does this provide functionality, for making changes at runtime, that the unity API does not allow?
<2022-07-01T11:27:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: not really, outside of the ability to ignore access modifiers like `private int someName`
<2022-07-01T11:28:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the killer application is that you could for example send these expressions from blender and get a real time importer
<2022-07-01T11:29:15.000Z> hazlin: Ah! now I see what you mean xD
<2022-07-01T11:29:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: its also reeeeeeally useful for debugging 
<2022-07-01T11:30:27.000Z> hazlin: >debuggingThat was actually what I originally thought you were going to give as the primary purpose
<2022-07-01T11:30:34.000Z> hazlin: cause it sounds super useful for that xD
<2022-07-01T11:32:15.000Z> hazlin: Personally, I spent part of today trying to get my CL understanding to the point where it could be my bash replacement (a position held by python).
<2022-07-01T11:32:47.000Z> hazlin: However(uiop:run-program "ls --g ~/" :output t) -> runs fine(uiop:run-program "ls --full-time ~/" :output t) -> errors out
<2022-07-01T11:33:33.000Z> hazlin: the biggest barrier to really taking off with CL, has been a lack of examples, you'd think since it was so old, I could do a web search to find out why this is failing, or how to debug it xD
<2022-07-01T11:33:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what i actually want to enable is the ability to quickly implement artist usable tooling for non standard renderers ( but that's to funky for the plebs so i'm going to get the real time importer going first ) 
<2022-07-01T11:35:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > point where it could be my bash replacement (a position held by python).lol i tried both of these things as well :) 
<2022-07-01T11:35:28.000Z> hazlin: >implement artist usable tooling for non standard renderersthis is a bit opaque to me xD do you mean... my guesses seem inherently wrong, so I'll just wait xD
<2022-07-01T11:39:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there are so many things, that aren't technially hard to do in themselves, but unfeasably hard to do given the api's that you have to shoehorn your stuff into 
<2022-07-01T11:40:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: for example, you could implement the exact variant of catmull clark blender uses for subdivision surfaces as a DX10 tesselation shader 
<2022-07-01T11:41:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but in order to get the neccesary parameters through you need to write your own importer 
<2022-07-01T11:42:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: with UShell(tm) writing the importer for your own custom data structures is a single expression 
<2022-07-01T11:43:58.000Z> hazlin: so, you'll be able to make things look the same as what you see in blender, in real time in unity?
<2022-07-01T11:44:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( current situation for exporting a subdivided model is - to apply the subdivision and export the totally bloated model - it sucks and totally unneccesaryly ) 
<2022-07-01T11:44:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: exactly 
<2022-07-01T11:46:01.000Z> hazlin: and then, once it is in unity, it can be saved for persistent usage?
<2022-07-01T11:48:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but you could also write your own spline renderer that works completely different from both unity and blenderif you have real time import, the artist can use, for example "edge crease" as a parameter, not have a subdiv modifier at all in blender - and look at how it modifies the look of the model right in the final rendered view
<2022-07-01T11:49:26.000Z> hazlin: sounds like a powerful tool
<2022-07-01T11:50:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i sure hope so >_< i spent way too much time on this for it to not rock socks off in the end 
<2022-07-01T11:50:39.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-07-01T12:06:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: thank you for listening to my ted talk XD 
<2022-07-01T12:06:41.000Z> hazlin: pff, I always enjoy talking with you
<2022-07-01T12:07:38.000Z> hazlin: If CL was, less inscrutable, I'm sure I'd be rambling away about it xD
<2022-07-01T12:08:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah i ran over you, when you were just starting about your shell exploits 
<2022-07-01T12:09:07.000Z> hazlin: hah, naa, I would have brought it back up if had more to say
<2022-07-01T12:09:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: (i'm always tempted to nudge you away from CL )
<2022-07-01T12:09:24.000Z> hazlin: I asked about UShell in detail remember xD
<2022-07-01T12:09:38.000Z> hazlin: please feel happy about telling me about it xD
<2022-07-01T12:09:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i do, i do 
<2022-07-01T12:11:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i've put so much work into this, and usually only get faces with question marks in them, when i'm trying to explain what it actually is 
<2022-07-01T12:12:47.000Z> hazlin: I know that feeling, I once had someone tell me "you are just making it overly complicated on purpose", in front of a group of my peers xD
<2022-07-01T12:13:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > you are just making it overly complicated on purposei know that all too well 
<2022-07-01T12:13:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: " yes i am, and you can't stop me " 
<2022-07-01T12:14:00.000Z> hazlin: lmao
<2022-07-01T12:15:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: often enough, you have to make things complicated first to make them easier later on 
<2022-07-01T12:15:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this is basically the whole history of comp-sci 
<2022-07-01T12:16:20.000Z> hazlin: and, it is extremely hard to make things simple from the beginning, simplicity is usually the result of boiling complexity down to its base parts
<2022-07-01T12:20:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah try proofing red black trees to be balanced without making it real complicated first 
<2022-07-01T12:23:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: btw, this instance is really comfy i didn't even know how much i missed my anime girls not having spider legs 
<2022-07-01T12:24:19.000Z> hazlin: My current goal is to make a simple minecraft clone with openGL. Essentially, stitching the surfaces together and mapping the textures.Tried in UE4 -> made it pretty far with visual scripts -> tried to switch to C++ -> VS fought with compiling UE4 xDTried with Unity -> the convenient containers from UE4 were not there to handle millions of nodes in a brain dead manner xD tried to bridge the gap in my C# understanding, but it wouldn't clear how to proceedtried in Godot -> found gdscript for the stitching and texturing, but the physics engine is locked to a single thread, so you can't use their physics for collisions, tried to write my own, but gdscript is crap, and I really hate how Godot works in general xD
<2022-07-01T12:24:34.000Z> hazlin: >i didn't even know how much i missed my anime girls not having spider legs xD
<2022-07-01T12:25:21.000Z> hazlin: most of those on my timeline are from sjw xD
<2022-07-01T12:26:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh boy, what a yourney 
<2022-07-01T12:26:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what do mean with stiching? 
<2022-07-01T12:27:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: collapse faces that lie in a plane into one big face?
<2022-07-01T12:28:01.000Z> hazlin: vertices, like, you've got to make a single object for the block terrain
<2022-07-01T12:28:33.000Z> hazlin: go give to the GPU, otherwise performance goes to zero, if I pass each face in as I need them
<2022-07-01T12:28:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: prune all the cube faces that would lie inside? 
<2022-07-01T12:29:51.000Z> hazlin: I'm guessing I wont load those at all, put do a progressive search across the outside of a group of blocks
<2022-07-01T12:31:47.000Z> hazlin: or, only create vertices for the blocks with an exposed face, and check every block
<2022-07-01T12:32:04.000Z> hazlin: that would keep me from having to prove I didn't miss a block because of a gap
<2022-07-01T12:32:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ok, i think i'm starting to get it 
<2022-07-01T12:32:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( never occured to me that something like minecraft would yield any challenges on the rendering side of things ) 
<2022-07-01T12:34:37.000Z> hazlin: So, that seems pretty doable, since it will be just math and logic. Making those vertexes agreeable to openGL, well, maybe it will "just work" xD Mapping a texture is a bit of an unknown.
<2022-07-01T12:35:18.000Z> hazlin: I've only ever really done that with blender, and that is essentially, click uv-unwrap, import texture image and line things up xD
<2022-07-01T12:35:52.000Z> hazlin: but, both should be in the tutorials for openGL, so, there is a path forward
<2022-07-01T12:35:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: textures, in minecraft? arent they just ( (0,0) , (0,1) , (1,0) , (1,1)) for everything? 
<2022-07-01T12:36:32.000Z> hazlin: uhh, is it that simple to map each face, when you have a giant vertix blob?
<2022-07-01T12:37:11.000Z> hazlin: I was imaging a mapping that would have to take into account the final shape
<2022-07-01T12:37:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you don't really 
<2022-07-01T12:37:31.000Z> hazlin: oh!
<2022-07-01T12:37:38.000Z> hazlin: like I can just make it vertex data?
<2022-07-01T12:37:41.000Z> hazlin: and embed it
<2022-07-01T12:37:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: faces overlapping in uv-space does nothing 
<2022-07-01T12:38:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you can hard code the uv
<2022-07-01T12:38:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: if you want 
<2022-07-01T12:39:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what you would need is switching the texture depending on material+orientation 
<2022-07-01T12:40:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: or you make an atlas ( fancy name for spritesheet ) 
<2022-07-01T12:45:42.000Z> hazlin: hmm so, I've got an array of blocks X1 =[1,0,1,2] I use that to make faces X2 =[[[1,1][1,0][0,0][0,1]][[2,1][2,0][1,0][1,1]][[3,1][3,0][2,0][2,1]][[4,1][4,0][3,0][3,1]]]I add material information to those vertex groups X3 += ['stone','void','stone','wood']And, I have a altas that maps the texture images to those materials?
<2022-07-01T12:47:43.000Z> hazlin: something like draw X3 using block Atlas
<2022-07-01T12:48:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: X1 is a representation of the block-type ?
<2022-07-01T12:50:41.000Z> hazlin: yes
<2022-07-01T12:50:50.000Z> hazlin: a row of blocks
<2022-07-01T12:51:02.000Z> hazlin: then X2 is all the faces from a single direction 
<2022-07-01T12:51:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: X2 are the argumets to glTexcoord2f ? 
<2022-07-01T12:51:25.000Z> hazlin: probably need to add a UV direction
<2022-07-01T12:52:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no, what's X2? 
<2022-07-01T12:52:33.000Z> hazlin: X3 is, what I am curious about, am I adding the texture information into the vertex data? I hadn't considered that before. But it would be easier than providing a separate data-structure to tell the gpu where the textures need rendered xD
<2022-07-01T12:53:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no yo can't plug it into vertex data 
<2022-07-01T12:53:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( multiple faces sharing a vertex ) 
<2022-07-01T12:53:24.000Z> hazlin: ah
<2022-07-01T12:53:53.000Z> hazlin: so then I am generating something similar to X2, but with a map for the textures to be drawn?
<2022-07-01T12:54:02.000Z> hazlin: but as* a map
<2022-07-01T12:54:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: dude i haven't yet understood what X2 represents 
<2022-07-01T12:54:56.000Z> hazlin: that is probably true xD
<2022-07-01T13:01:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lets say your rendering loop is glBegin(GL_QUADS ) 
<2022-07-01T13:01:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fuck i'll write it in a text editor first 
<2022-07-01T13:13:30.000Z> hazlin: lol, I was fighting to get my desktop back correct, the power bounced and my monitors decided to get random with their mapping xD
<2022-07-01T13:15:04.000Z> hazlin: much like CL, I am wiggling my way into understanding openGL, or really computer graphics in general. Blender and Unity work great, but it appears my knowledge stayed shallow using them
<2022-07-01T13:23:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: when i started with graphics stuff there were no freely usable engines so i couldn't get anything going without learning everything from scratch 
<2022-07-01T13:24:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: when i hear people who started from using engines, their understanding of how graphics api's work is often quite warped
<2022-07-01T13:25:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's strange and i don't envy them at all 
<2022-07-01T13:26:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: man i thought writing this in a way that is self explanatory would be easy 
<2022-07-01T13:26:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ... it's not XD 
<2022-07-01T13:29:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what's the data structure representation of a generic mesh that seems most obvious to you? 
<2022-07-01T13:30:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lets say, it has only triangles, and uses only a single texture
<2022-07-01T13:36:28.000Z> hazlin: uhh, an array of points seems most obvious 
<2022-07-01T13:37:29.000Z> hazlin: I'm not sure what the alternatives are xD
<2022-07-01T13:38:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm ok 
<2022-07-01T13:39:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so    V :: float[number_of_vertices][3] 
<2022-07-01T13:39:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( c-ish notation ) 
<2022-07-01T13:40:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: then your faces are F :: int[number_of_faces][3] 
<2022-07-01T13:41:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: such that you get the first vertex of the first face like so : V[ F[0,0] ] 
<2022-07-01T13:42:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a whole face is : V[ F[0,0] ]     , V[F[0,1] ] , V[ F[0,2] ] 
<2022-07-01T13:42:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ok ? 
<2022-07-01T13:42:57.000Z> hazlin: okay, so I need to double cehck
<2022-07-01T13:43:45.000Z> hazlin: I thought you were saying V was a vector3 of 3 floats, similarly F was a vector3 of 3 ints
<2022-07-01T13:43:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a face is a sequence of indexes into the vertex-array 
<2022-07-01T13:44:26.000Z> hazlin: but now it looks like you are saying that F is a 2d array of floats, hints F[0,0] = 1
<2022-07-01T13:44:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: exactly 
<2022-07-01T13:45:48.000Z> hazlin: so the vertexes that make up the first face are "V[ F[0,0] ]  , V[F[0,1] ] , V[ F[0,2] ]"
<2022-07-01T13:46:31.000Z> hazlin: the second face is V[ F[1,0] ] , V[F[1,1] ] , V[ F[1,2] ] 
<2022-07-01T13:46:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm it's meant to be read like, if the F[ ... , ... ] expressions are expanded the whole face looks like V[3] , V[7] , V[111] 
<2022-07-01T13:47:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yo 
<2022-07-01T13:47:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's the most common way this is done ( to not save shared vertices twice ) 
<2022-07-01T13:48:43.000Z> hazlin: Okay, so we've got vertexes V and faces F
<2022-07-01T13:50:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so now if we commit to this representation, our hands are basically forced on how to store UVs 
<2022-07-01T13:53:02.000Z> hazlin: UV[F_number] = 1 or -1?
<2022-07-01T13:53:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: UV  :: float[number_of_faces] [ number_of_vertices_per_face][ 2 ] 
<2022-07-01T13:53:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i mean if we want the generic mesh 
<2022-07-01T13:54:00.000Z> hazlin: so that one isn't clear to me, can you unpack that for me?
<2022-07-01T13:55:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: forced is too strong a word, it comes from how you write the rendering loop when you have such a structure 
<2022-07-01T13:57:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: glBegin( GL_QUADS )     for f in face_indices :     for j in 0 .. 3 :     glVertex3f( V [ F [ f , j ] ] ) glEnd()
<2022-07-01T13:57:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: if you store UV
<2022-07-01T13:58:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: like above, you can simply add glTexCoord2f( UV [ f, j ] ) 
<2022-07-01T13:58:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: an you're done 
<2022-07-01T14:00:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: s/QUADS/TRIANGLES/g 
<2022-07-01T14:01:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: more advanced stuff like triangle strips or vertex buffer objects all go back to this 
<2022-07-01T14:01:55.000Z> hazlin: hmm have an idea of what is in V and F, but not really what the value of UV represents 
<2022-07-01T14:02:13.000Z> hazlin: like, i know "texture mapping"
<2022-07-01T14:03:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm ok that's not really the easiest way to do it  >_< 
<2022-07-01T14:04:06.000Z> hazlin: I don't mean to propose a way xD
<2022-07-01T14:04:52.000Z> hazlin: >glTexCoord2f( UV [ f, j ] )Feels a bit magic to me, I am not opposed to it, I just don't know what is happening here xD
<2022-07-01T14:06:30.000Z> hazlin: like, what information does UV contain, that lets glTexCoord2f, know to map face X to region Y of a texture 
<2022-07-01T14:06:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, it's kind of magic because it assumes that you have initialized UV such that this magically works 
<2022-07-01T14:06:45.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-01T14:06:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: otoh it also retroactively defines what the correct initialization is 
<2022-07-01T14:08:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and this "region" is a polygon with 2D coordinates, no? 
<2022-07-01T14:09:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ok simpler data structure 
<2022-07-01T14:10:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: single_triangle     V   float[3][3]    UV  float[3][2]
<2022-07-01T14:11:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and your mesh is then   an array "single_triangle [ number_of_triangles ] " 
<2022-07-01T14:13:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: rendering loop is then 
<2022-07-01T14:13:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: glBegin( GL_TRIANGLES )     for f in face_indices :     for j in 0 .. 3 :     glTexCoord2f  ( T[f].UV[j] )     glVertex3f    ( T[f].V[j] ) glEnd()
<2022-07-01T14:14:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: if T is the array of struct "single_triangle" 
<2022-07-01T14:14:43.000Z> hazlin: okay
<2022-07-01T14:15:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the other representation pulls all the Vs in one array and all the UVs
<2022-07-01T14:16:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it does essentially the same thing 
<2022-07-01T14:16:29.000Z> hazlin: right
<2022-07-01T14:17:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the roundabout way with the face index for vertices is just to remove duplicates 
<2022-07-01T14:18:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: for a general mesh there are no such duplicates in the UV array 
<2022-07-01T14:19:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: in your minecraft case there is 
<2022-07-01T14:19:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so you just pull the same trick again 
<2022-07-01T14:20:27.000Z> hazlin: this is certainly straight forward xD
<2022-07-01T14:21:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: (  ok ,  i lied , uv-islands do have duplicates - but the idea stays the same ) 
<2022-07-01T14:21:57.000Z> hazlin: okay, I think the part that hadn't sunk in was that, UV is a 2d point, and it is the 2d coordinate associated with the 3d point at the current index 
<2022-07-01T14:23:05.000Z> hazlin: so, for my blocks there will be UV overlap, for faces with the same texutre
<2022-07-01T14:23:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yes
<2022-07-01T14:25:03.000Z> hazlin: so when I read "1" and that is "stone" I'll assign a specific set of UV, so that it renders as "UV coordinates for stone of the atlas"
<2022-07-01T14:25:05.000Z> hazlin: wow
<2022-07-01T14:25:16.000Z> hazlin: this was a bit of foundational knowledge I really needed xD
<2022-07-01T14:25:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that should be it 
<2022-07-01T14:25:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ^_______^ 
<2022-07-01T14:25:59.000Z> hazlin: :D
<2022-07-01T14:28:23.000Z> hazlin: now I understand that UV unwrapping view in blender, were you drag the points around on the texture
<2022-07-01T14:28:34.000Z> hazlin: before that shit was magic to me lol
<2022-07-01T14:29:10.000Z> hazlin: you'd think my seeing it, I'd connect the dots, since it is a literal graphical representation of this concept, but that was not the case xD
<2022-07-01T14:29:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah the interface is confusing as hell 
<2022-07-01T14:31:00.000Z> hazlin: "after making seams, we open up the magic UV unwrapped, then click reduce stretching, that is going to change the shapes, maximizing their coverage over the texture, that will make things look better for purely magic reasons, don't worry about it"
<2022-07-01T14:32:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: XD 
<2022-07-01T14:53:01.000Z> hazlin: say, will I need duplicate vertexes, since there will be UV overlap?
<2022-07-01T14:53:42.000Z> hazlin: since I will need a vertex to be in two places at the same time on the UV map
<2022-07-01T15:40:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: see, this whole duplicating business comes from understanding graphics programming from within existing engines :) 
<2022-07-01T15:41:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i know the web is full of this stuff 
<2022-07-01T15:43:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: usually people talk about duplicating vertices if they need different normals for different faces sharing a common vertex , at that vertex 
<2022-07-01T15:43:47.000Z> hazlin: interesting
<2022-07-01T15:44:02.000Z> hazlin: I wonder what blender is doing under the hood when I make a seam
<2022-07-01T15:44:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you need to do this, if the software you use has a hard restriction on "there is only one normal per vertex" 
<2022-07-01T15:45:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah blender for example does this for "vertexes <=> normals" 
<2022-07-01T15:46:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but there is no technical necessity to do it this way 
<2022-07-01T15:46:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: on the top of my head it doesn't do this for UVs 
<2022-07-01T15:48:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: when you organize your data structures "face first" you don't need any splits 
<2022-07-01T15:49:34.000Z> hazlin: I guess I don't know what is happening behind the scene with something like a, all edges seam  https://i.poastcdn.org/dbce579b3d1410f0b09e8372f04fb5ca33973c25d11c50c2c80dbc4a794ab567.png
<2022-07-01T15:50:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what about it ? 
<2022-07-01T15:51:14.000Z> hazlin: went from 2*4 UV coordinates, to 6*4. 
<2022-07-01T15:51:50.000Z> hazlin: I guess what I mean to say is, that is how I would do it in blender
<2022-07-01T15:52:00.000Z> hazlin: and now I am looking at openGL xD
<2022-07-01T15:54:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the screenshot already is a usable atlas, no? 
<2022-07-01T15:56:49.000Z> hazlin: Ah, yes, however, if I can't do it programmatically, then it isn't going to help me with a voxel world
<2022-07-01T15:57:12.000Z> hazlin: searching for the answer right now :D
<2022-07-01T16:01:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the answer is simple don't search for it write a 100 line dummy program in python or something and play around with it until see it 
<2022-07-01T16:05:53.000Z> hazlin: that is a good idea
<2022-07-01T16:07:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's much easier than you think
<2022-07-01T16:11:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i can't help you with CLbut if you use c, c++, python, julia and probably like a dozen others i could tell you exactly what's going on 
<2022-07-01T16:18:55.000Z> hazlin: roger roger
<2022-07-01T16:19:05.000Z> hazlin: I'll see what I can do :D
<2022-07-01T16:23:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i could prob. also decipher CL , but if it hangs at gl-initialization i'm out 
<2022-07-01T16:24:18.000Z> hazlin: xD understood
<2022-07-02T11:18:24.000Z> hazlin: progress update  https://i.poastcdn.org/877d17ff921d604cd816a4bbfb39a8d0be6510258ad97504f1c735054996bdf9.png
<2022-07-02T11:21:03.000Z> hazlin: I am generally following webglfundamentals.org/ and currently on webglfundamentals.org/webgl/lessons/webgl-3d-orthographic.html
<2022-07-02T11:21:38.000Z> hazlin: but I am also spending extra time trying to bridge the gap to blender, to build my understanding 
<2022-07-02T11:24:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: noice :+1: 
<2022-07-02T11:25:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you exported the "F" model and dumped it into a javascript literal ? 
<2022-07-02T11:26:13.000Z> hazlin: function setGeometry(gl) {    gl.bufferData(        gl.ARRAY_BUFFER,        new Float32Array([-1.9733,-0.5908,-4.6331,-1.9733,-0.5908,3.0812,-1.9733,0.5908,-4.6331,-1.9733,0.5908,3.0812,0.0267,-0.5908,-4.6331,0.0267,-0.5908,3.0812,0.0267,0.5908,-4.6331,0.0267,0.5908,3.0812,-1.9733,-0.5908,1.1125,-1.9733,0.5908,1.1125,0.0267,0.5908,1.1125,0.0267,-0.5908,1.1125,-1.9733,0.5908,0.2851,0.0267,0.5908,0.2851,0.0267,-0.5908,0.2851,-1.9733,-0.5908,0.2851,-1.9733,0.5908,-1.3901,0.0267,0.5908,-1.3901,0.0267,-0.5908,-1.3901,-1.9733,-0.5908,-1.3901,3.0294,0.5908,3.0812,3.0294,-0.5908,3.0812,3.0294,0.5908,1.1125,3.0294,-0.5908,1.1125,1.8372,0.5908,0.2851,1.8372,-0.5908,0.2851,1.8372,0.5908,-1.3901,1.8372,-0.5908,-1.3901]),        gl.STATIC_DRAW);      }
<2022-07-02T11:26:17.000Z> hazlin: yes
<2022-07-02T11:26:19.000Z> hazlin: yes I did
<2022-07-02T11:26:26.000Z> hazlin: however, I can see the difference
<2022-07-02T11:26:37.000Z> hazlin: I only have unique vertexes
<2022-07-02T11:26:48.000Z> hazlin: and the example has a full set for each face
<2022-07-02T11:26:59.000Z> hazlin: so, writing some code to spit that out of python xD
<2022-07-02T11:27:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there is no such thing as using too many languages ^__^ 
<2022-07-02T11:28:29.000Z> hazlin: well, I decided that I wanted to practice with something I can easily send to you, and you can just run it lol no fussing about xD
<2022-07-02T11:29:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh, so you translate the webgl tutorial to python? 
<2022-07-02T11:29:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: impressive :) 
<2022-07-02T11:30:52.000Z> hazlin: current file https://i.poastcdn.org/34f414146962cf7c4ba616cad91a3eda72860b4f7343a715cea73454a01ebaee.zip
<2022-07-02T11:31:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: aight
<2022-07-02T11:34:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: vbo's , shader you are going in hard my dude 
<2022-07-02T11:34:47.000Z> hazlin: That is the current script to dump out of python https://i.poastcdn.org/8a97218cde6a8481dceed75839ce7a142fbbf11c59eef54985d82af95341bba1.zip
<2022-07-02T11:39:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you know what,yesterday i thought i should send you a python snippet to dump json from blender to get you started 
<2022-07-02T11:41:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: did you triangulate your mesh ? 
<2022-07-02T11:44:46.000Z> hazlin: yes
<2022-07-02T11:45:09.000Z> hazlin: I just need to print out the vertices in terms of the faces
<2022-07-02T11:45:18.000Z> hazlin: I suspect that will fix this
<2022-07-02T11:55:59.000Z> hazlin: that worked https://i.poastcdn.org/8cc947d5074b61553096c4dd1c6ef3be96a8a500b2828a5bebe651da23607187.zip
<2022-07-02T11:56:16.000Z> hazlin: going to animate it to spin next xD
<2022-07-02T11:56:31.000Z> hazlin: but, I need to buy groceries, so I'll be gone for a bit
<2022-07-02T11:56:37.000Z> hazlin: I hope you are having a good day sir :D
<2022-07-02T11:58:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: thanks, likewise :) 
<2022-07-02T17:03:06.000Z> hazlin: added some WASD rotation control https://i.poastcdn.org/23a15b3b74c0ee99fc679554fde711ee0f60e813d57e4d061c035bdc623fd895.zip
<2022-07-02T17:05:31.000Z> hazlin: at some point, I'll want to look at the differences between different axis scopes. 
<2022-07-02T17:36:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: +1 :) 
<2022-07-02T17:40:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you mean the functions zRotation , yRotation , ... ? 
<2022-07-02T17:47:56.000Z> hazlin: I think so, (I made the animation smoother in this version, and added a activity timeout, so it doesn't keep redrawing if there isn't any input) https://i.poastcdn.org/440812f6db77062c572537d74343c88c7acfeed30506d99cdb0e8d7386ec06fa.zip
<2022-07-02T17:48:15.000Z> hazlin: in addition to the rotation thing 
<2022-07-02T17:48:20.000Z> hazlin: I came across this codinglabs.net/article_world_view_projection_matrix.aspx
<2022-07-02T17:48:41.000Z> hazlin: it goes over transforms in different spaces 
<2022-07-02T17:49:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: looks correct ^^
<2022-07-02T17:51:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: in our quest to use as many languages as possible i'm currently translating the webgl example to julia :) 
<2022-07-02T17:51:21.000Z> hazlin: xD xD xD
<2022-07-02T18:51:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: don't worry if the projection matrix doesn't make sense at firstit only looks so weird because matrices can't represent division what it does is shuffle the divisor into the w coordinateplus normalizing all dimensions to [-1,1] because that's how things are clipped against
<2022-07-02T19:14:31.000Z> hazlin: haven't make it to that part yet, but I feel like my understanding is improving
<2022-07-02T19:14:55.000Z> hazlin: the bit about active space and order of operations being important, feels like my perspective is improving again
<2022-07-02T20:55:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i've never seen this term used elsewhere but it's not a bad way to think about this, i guess 
<2022-07-03T09:42:27.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/d59e43ee5de9f6dc5fefaeb5696c1253ba0e44ac0ce74b9182d4d1e7428be6a4.zip
<2022-07-03T09:42:54.000Z> hazlin: I'm guessing the next section will cover normal maps xD https://i.poastcdn.org/878d037d080f2f035e6bd686d2f0db4840633a319878a601d4576041345f89f9.png
<2022-07-03T10:47:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you're making good pace :) 
<2022-07-03T10:48:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: try this in the initialization somewhere gl.enable(gl.DEPTH_TEST);gl.depthFunc( gl.LESS);
<2022-07-03T11:08:09.000Z> hazlin: That worked, I added:gl.enable(gl.DEPTH_TEST);gl.depthFunc( gl.LESS); https://i.poastcdn.org/c4d64a436bf261aaa0bcda9b8e3d5b32cb72cbd187557c0f3df8c0e3cb6e12a1.png
<2022-07-03T11:08:28.000Z> hazlin: I meant to paste,gl.enable(gl.CULL_FACE);gl.enable(gl.DEPTH_TEST);gl.depthFunc( gl.LESS);
<2022-07-03T11:12:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: wow , i wouldn't have expected backface culling to work right out of the box or did you do the necessary massaging this quick ? 
<2022-07-03T11:13:12.000Z> hazlin: no massaging, and I've looked at it from all angels, I don't see any issues... I need to fix the colors, then I'll send you an update xD
<2022-07-03T11:13:34.000Z> hazlin: my guess is the face tuples from python have the correct vertex order
<2022-07-03T11:13:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: seems so :) 
<2022-07-03T11:23:41.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/5f266db501550511693abcb555ff37b55f5b40870d62bb28b4ecc635cbde37a1.zip
<2022-07-03T11:24:11.000Z> hazlin: So, the vertex order seem to be fine, but the face order is all over the place https://i.poastcdn.org/0a0f5be62ac5f422728c08f5abff6462003eb3eb82faaa56ada8373c6b085ae1.png
<2022-07-03T11:25:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you really seem to have a knack for this 
<2022-07-03T11:25:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what order should they be in ? 
<2022-07-03T11:27:29.000Z> hazlin: hmm, that is a good question xD but, perhaps it doesn't matter because a UV map will straighten face adjacency. 
<2022-07-03T11:28:46.000Z> hazlin: I more meant, because face adjacency is in consistent, making the triangle pairs have the same color programmatically isn't trivial 
<2022-07-03T11:29:44.000Z> hazlin: along the top edge in that picture, sometimes they are mirrored, sometimes they repeat 
<2022-07-03T11:34:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you want the original quads to be in a consistent color ? 
<2022-07-03T11:39:11.000Z> hazlin: I sort of wanted to make it look like the one in the tutorial. But maybe, instead of doing some math to isolate the different plays on vertex, I'll just texture it :D https://i.poastcdn.org/c1fc8a5d3c09521e393cd0eb15a90ac328ddc8fd63f33efedd45ea8f6a6cc762.png
<2022-07-03T11:39:32.000Z> hazlin: plays -> planes*
<2022-07-03T11:43:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( works with the trinangulated version as well ) 
<2022-07-03T11:43:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: or derive from face normal 
<2022-07-03T11:51:03.000Z> hazlin: that is what I was originally trying to do
<2022-07-03T11:51:16.000Z> hazlin: but I have yet to find it in blender as something to export xD
<2022-07-03T11:52:05.000Z> hazlin: I guess I could uhh do the matrix math against the triangle to determine normal
<2022-07-03T12:38:19.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/5f266db501550511693abcb555ff37b55f5b40870d62bb28b4ecc635cbde37a1.zip
<2022-07-03T12:38:29.000Z> hazlin: Success :D https://i.poastcdn.org/fbe8a58173397db6f4dcdb51da71f4d3c202560c6938fc8d82aff122f9e42dbc.png
<2022-07-03T12:38:38.000Z> hazlin: the html file didn't change much
<2022-07-03T12:39:20.000Z> hazlin: I computed the normals, then assigned a color based on their alignment to the XYZ axis
<2022-07-03T12:40:45.000Z> hazlin: I decided not to do a texture, because that will be covered in a later chapter, and it may depend on code in the 2 or 3 chapters between xD
<2022-07-03T15:27:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: baest ate my messages i think 
<2022-07-03T15:28:19.000Z> hazlin: D:
<2022-07-03T15:29:36.000Z> hazlin: I had success, I pre-computing the normals, and assigned a color to the 6 world axis, then passed that into the HTML https://i.poastcdn.org/fbe8a58173397db6f4dcdb51da71f4d3c202560c6938fc8d82aff122f9e42dbc.png
<2022-07-03T15:29:54.000Z> hazlin: the current file https://i.poastcdn.org/5f266db501550511693abcb555ff37b55f5b40870d62bb28b4ecc635cbde37a1.zip
<2022-07-03T15:30:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: b a s e d 
<2022-07-03T15:40:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it seems to be stored in a pretty roundabout way https://blenderscripting.blogspot.com/2013/03/vertex-color-map.html
<2022-07-03T15:51:21.000Z> hazlin: oooo
<2022-07-03T15:52:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: one color for every "loop"i didn't even know it could do thatnow i wanna know if the vertex paint tool can do this to ( paint vertex color only for one face )  https://bae.st/media/a8585597493f3192cb75734ac2ea4569cc22c21f43df27132b408e708e86dc08.png?name=image.png
<2022-07-03T15:55:48.000Z> hazlin: I'll give it a spin, but first I must run an errand, afk
<2022-07-03T16:00:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah it works, you can use the face selection from edit mode as mask
<2022-07-04T08:12:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ps`C.active_object.data.polygons[0].material_index`is also a neat way to improvise something like "gui editable subsets of faces" 
<2022-07-04T10:47:44.000Z> hazlin: I'm going to give painting the faces in blender and exporting to webgl a try
<2022-07-04T10:47:53.000Z> hazlin: then I'll continue on with the tutorial xD
<2022-07-04T16:01:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: done for the dayfeet up linux booted time for some recreational openGL 
<2022-07-04T16:19:56.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-07-04T16:20:34.000Z> hazlin: I ended up writing some utility scripts, when I went to get started I noticed I was at like, 93% hard drive capacity 
<2022-07-04T16:21:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-07-04T17:03:15.000Z> hazlin: Now, with colors, as pained in blender xD https://i.poastcdn.org/b782d3d9937db01ba278c146fff8616edc611f8160b910f97fb8024971020747.png
<2022-07-04T17:04:58.000Z> hazlin: The only real code change was in python https://i.poastcdn.org/14fdf73fbaac93704ef70f8015533525a8ab220a9cf89b05c6c9715ee4b52a94.png
<2022-07-04T17:35:48.000Z> hazlin: ah, well I wasn't sure if you minded being publicly tagged or not xD
<2022-07-04T17:42:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i don't mindi would be greatful however if you didn't tell anyone that this and that guy from post are the same person 
<2022-07-04T17:45:32.000Z> hazlin: roger roger
<2022-07-04T17:46:09.000Z> hazlin: "don't worry guys, this guy I do blender stuff with is completely different than that other guy, that I was doing blender stuff with"
<2022-07-04T17:47:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: plausible denyability is all i need 
<2022-07-04T17:57:27.000Z> hazlin: I can at least do that, now if I can just figure out how to say the new name, I am currently going with Na-te-ch-tray-bay
<2022-07-04T18:00:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the ch is this throat clearig sound  like the spanish j like in jalapeno
<2022-07-04T18:08:12.000Z> hazlin: does it have a meaning?
<2022-07-04T18:09:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's a scary story told to children to teach them to be back home before dark
<2022-07-04T18:10:15.000Z> hazlin: lol!
<2022-07-04T18:10:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: "and if you are still outside the night raven will catch you and carry you so far away you will never find your way home ever again " 
<2022-07-04T18:16:36.000Z> hazlin: I'm noticing in examples of blender code, they often get the object by its name
<2022-07-04T18:17:00.000Z> hazlin: but that "bpy.context.active_object" seems like the way to go in every case xD
<2022-07-04T18:25:05.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: until you click elsewhere :) 
<2022-07-04T22:18:59.000Z> hazlin: So, I was reading through the Tutorialspot page for webgl, and I realized that
<2022-07-04T22:21:32.000Z> hazlin: js.array <-> bufferWrapper <-> bind on mount point <->  attribute location
<2022-07-04T22:22:51.000Z> hazlin: that the reason why we have all those different steps, is, we are settings up direct memory access to the js array by webgl
<2022-07-04T22:35:12.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/a0ca6865e1f7c337b6cdc6e44c3c1116f5fce5bcb5b599b1d23cdf85440f99ff.png
<2022-07-04T22:36:28.000Z> hazlin: The particular page I've been reading is this, tutorialspoint.com/webgl/webgl_quick_guide.htm
<2022-07-04T22:51:25.000Z> hazlin: until today, it still felt like a mess of variabes xD
<2022-07-05T09:16:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah you nedd those extra types like Float32Array in webgl becaus js doesn't have c-style-arrays ( which the openGL is heavily based around ) 
<2022-07-05T09:16:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: with mountpoint you mean those numeric id's you get for everything, like glGenBuffer() ? 
<2022-07-05T09:19:46.000Z> hazlin: in webgl, to interact with webgl for these bindings, you have to first call gl.bindBuffer(gl.ARRAY_BUFFER,positionBuffer);
<2022-07-05T09:20:09.000Z> hazlin: then when you call something like setGeometry(gl);
<2022-07-05T09:20:22.000Z> hazlin: gl.bufferData(      gl.ARRAY_BUFFER,      new Uint8Array([
<2022-07-05T09:20:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, that's normal 
<2022-07-05T09:20:33.000Z> hazlin: that magically gets associated with positionBuffer
<2022-07-05T09:20:55.000Z> hazlin: so when I say, mount point, I mean gl.ARRAY_BUFFER
<2022-07-05T09:21:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you essentially pass most of your arguements via state in a BIG fat mess of global variables in the driver 
<2022-07-05T09:22:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah, how which buffer ends up where in the shader is pretty convoluted 
<2022-07-05T09:23:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: in terms of position , that's because "position" is special 
<2022-07-05T09:23:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-07-05T09:24:49.000Z> hazlin: then am I right in thinking that there would be a similar number of steps if I was using C or C++?
<2022-07-05T09:26:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yes it's very similar
<2022-07-05T09:26:29.000Z> hazlin: interesting :D
<2022-07-05T09:32:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: when you do for example  " gl.drawElements(gl.TRIANGLES, " how the named ( and hopefully properly bound ) named buffers like are used is defined by the method you chose ( like gl.TRIANGLES ) this is fixed in the standard, you don't need to / can't bind them yourself to shader variables 
<2022-07-05T09:40:43.000Z> hazlin: got ya
<2022-07-05T09:42:50.000Z> hazlin: doing the part of the tutorial on perspectives at the moment 
<2022-07-05T09:43:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( you can bind custom buffers with auxilliary data on top of them, and then you have to do it explicitly  ) 
<2022-07-05T09:44:43.000Z> hazlin: makes me wonder, if a solid foundation on the matrix math, would be of benefit, or, after I know how each of the transforms work as a blackbox, will I ever touch them again xD
<2022-07-05T09:47:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm given how much there is to take in it probably doesn't hurt leave it at blackbox for a while 
<2022-07-05T09:48:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and oh yes - there is a ton of funky performance tricks in shaders you can come up with if you are intimate with the math :) 
<2022-07-05T09:58:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: RAAAAAAAAH!i spend days proving an algorithm i wanted to use so solve some dependency issue i had in initialization 
<2022-07-05T09:58:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: only to find out - the bug was elsewhere 
<2022-07-05T09:59:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and i don't need it at all 
<2022-07-05T10:04:21.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-07-05T10:09:24.000Z> hazlin: say, you wouldn't happen to know what this line does exactly? gl.enableVertexAttribArray(colorLocation);
<2022-07-05T10:10:21.000Z> hazlin: I mean, obviously, we are telling webgl, to use the attribute located in a specific gl.program
<2022-07-05T10:11:12.000Z> hazlin: but, isn't that what we are doing when we call gl.vertexAttribPointer(positionAttributeLocation,
<2022-07-05T10:11:27.000Z> hazlin: I, mixed my two buffers there xD
<2022-07-05T10:11:52.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/df6023bbdfc294a1ccccbebc8a2f60f9d7d32442c732f71429628eb3a50ccd7e.png
<2022-07-05T10:19:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm i'll have to look more closely into it, but i think you don't actually need this many gl.BindBuffers 
<2022-07-05T10:20:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'll do it in the evening - there are c# problems waiting to be curb stomped 
<2022-07-05T10:20:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: cu
<2022-07-05T10:20:58.000Z> hazlin: ah, I just asked in case you knew off the top of your head :D
<2022-07-05T10:21:46.000Z> hazlin: I've seen this pattern from a few difference sources at this point, so I don't doubt it is required, but it leaves me wondering about 'when' it must be done in the program
<2022-07-05T10:22:25.000Z> hazlin: I suspect this will be answered in the tutorials on animation, were things should be excluded from loops if they aren't necessary 
<2022-07-05T13:16:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no i don't - pride got the better of me 
<2022-07-05T15:23:23.000Z> hazlin: I ended up taking a mega nap
<2022-07-05T15:24:25.000Z> hazlin: has been raining buckets here
<2022-07-05T15:24:30.000Z> hazlin: very peaceful
<2022-07-05T15:37:44.000Z> hazlin: the first kind of perspective is a manual one, where the scale(?) is divided by the z position  https://i.poastcdn.org/02946e9a7dce7424f4a395e6bf0ed8dc68d31fff9f996f5a95a3ce0ae5356399.png
<2022-07-05T15:37:49.000Z> hazlin: which makes sense
<2022-07-05T17:28:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well done
<2022-07-05T17:28:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the scale(?) simply comes from dividing x/w , y/w independently , there is no trick to this 
<2022-07-05T18:09:12.000Z> hazlin: yeah
<2022-07-05T18:09:34.000Z> hazlin: I hadn't imagined it was so simple xD
<2022-07-06T09:03:19.000Z> hazlin: You know, I didn't realize that, when you move the camera, you are actually moving the world xD
<2022-07-06T09:03:57.000Z> hazlin: applying an inverse transform matrix to everything else
<2022-07-06T09:04:41.000Z> hazlin: I figured the camera was a primitive openGL provided 
<2022-07-06T20:07:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, pretty much ^^ 
<2022-07-06T20:18:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: got some work done, cycled to the next town over, joined a drawing session, cycled back
<2022-07-06T20:18:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: good day, time for some animu :) 
<2022-07-06T20:18:41.000Z> hazlin: nice :D
<2022-07-06T20:19:02.000Z> hazlin: what animu you enjoying?
<2022-07-06T20:19:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: nagatoroneed it for my internet racist creds 
<2022-07-06T20:26:40.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-06T20:26:57.000Z> hazlin: I enjoyed the manga
<2022-07-06T20:27:01.000Z> hazlin: haven't seen the anime
<2022-07-06T20:28:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehehe - the first ep. has her sitting model for him the first time i did this i thought i was going to die >_< 
<2022-07-06T20:33:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm starting to understand this was obviously made by /ourguys/ https://bae.st/media/436efc6e1a90474b7aa75a118a9599c9bf48503d6550a38074614bd7e9dfdf63.png?name=image.png
<2022-07-06T20:33:56.000Z> hazlin: :D
<2022-07-06T20:34:08.000Z> hazlin: at this rate I'm going to have to pick it up
<2022-07-06T20:34:20.000Z> hazlin: so many people on this side of the internet like it
<2022-07-06T20:35:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: wishing for a dysfunctional/abusive relationship seems like a theme 
<2022-07-06T20:38:22.000Z> hazlin: I, don't remember where on the scale nagatoro fell, I didn't care much for Palm Tiger, but I liked Maoyu a lot
<2022-07-06T20:39:39.000Z> hazlin: oh, and I really liked Beyond the Boundary 
<2022-07-06T20:40:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: [ googles profusely ] 
<2022-07-06T20:41:00.000Z> hazlin: lol sorry, Maoyu is "be mine hero"
<2022-07-06T20:41:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: goes on the list then ^^ 
<2022-07-06T20:42:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: did you see "another" 
<2022-07-06T20:43:12.000Z> hazlin: yes, but I only remember that one scene xD
<2022-07-06T20:43:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the umbrella? 
<2022-07-06T20:43:50.000Z> hazlin: YOU KNOW xD 
<2022-07-06T20:44:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that scene kinda stuck out, yeah 
<2022-07-06T20:45:21.000Z> hazlin: yeah like the nina scene from FMA
<2022-07-06T20:45:44.000Z> hazlin: I don't think anything quite comes close to either of those xD
<2022-07-06T20:46:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there were ninjas in full metal alchemist? 
<2022-07-06T20:46:22.000Z> hazlin: Only the bad one
<2022-07-06T20:47:48.000Z> hazlin: no ninja in the original anime adaptation 
<2022-07-06T20:48:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's why - didn't see the rest
<2022-07-06T20:48:46.000Z> hazlin: it would be like if they had added ninja to hellsing, it wouldn't fit at all
<2022-07-06T20:49:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lol 
<2022-07-07T13:48:06.000Z> hazlin: status update ->I've been writing the example into classes
<2022-07-07T13:48:24.000Z> hazlin: they wanted to just, add multiple objects to the scene with loops
<2022-07-07T13:48:30.000Z> hazlin: but I felt like it was getting more confusing
<2022-07-07T13:48:49.000Z> hazlin: so I'll been figuring out, what pieces belong to which object
<2022-07-07T13:50:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: seems reasonable 
<2022-07-07T13:51:45.000Z> hazlin: ... now I just have to make things, less complicated, rather than more complicated xD
<2022-07-07T14:13:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but why though? 
<2022-07-07T14:14:28.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-07T14:14:29.000Z> hazlin: you know
<2022-07-07T14:14:42.000Z> hazlin: that is a good question
<2022-07-07T14:14:53.000Z> hazlin: maybe I'll shoot for more complex and more useable 
<2022-07-07T14:28:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i think the exercise of putting the stuff into classes is a good idea 
<2022-07-07T14:28:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: makes you think about each piece and where to shove it 
<2022-07-07T14:28:54.000Z> hazlin: yes
<2022-07-07T14:29:29.000Z> hazlin: it is also making realize, I don't yet know what makes an object unique xD
<2022-07-07T14:31:20.000Z> hazlin: For example, here in their draw loop, I wonder how openGL knows there are 5 different F objects https://i.poastcdn.org/cd964a03b043932660b8e9eb8ecd4d2108c2ad3b24ba977f9266345a55c78480.png
<2022-07-07T14:32:06.000Z> hazlin: my first guess, would have been, it would draw it in one place, then get cleared, then draw it in another place...
<2022-07-07T14:32:24.000Z> hazlin: BECAUSE  there is no clear in that loop
<2022-07-07T14:32:29.000Z> hazlin: question answered xD
<2022-07-07T14:32:57.000Z> hazlin: it is drawing 1 object 5 times, but on update, it clears, then draws the 1 object, 5 times
<2022-07-07T14:39:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: XD
<2022-07-07T17:16:25.000Z> hazlin: wow I would not have guessed you'd have to rebind all attributes and uniforms for each object, each time they need to be draw :O
<2022-07-07T17:18:49.000Z> hazlin: I guess, I was thinking some of this stuff, would live on the GPU 
<2022-07-07T17:20:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: nah you are overthinking this stuff the api is just ancientthink of the bound parameters as if they were ( hidden arguments ) to the function you call 
<2022-07-07T17:21:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i used to know a reference 
<2022-07-07T17:21:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that lists all the glState each function uses - but i can't find it anymore 
<2022-07-07T17:24:57.000Z> hazlin: yeah, this explanation helped me a lot xD https://i.poastcdn.org/4e09cf5baf6a463091e076e5b9f3049e3c2a96af3d2f8248b92de309606228a0.png
<2022-07-07T17:25:48.000Z> hazlin: I guess, my code, here https://i.poastcdn.org/e3d5134aa78cf2566cec1c4b1bbc8a757ee3d57c55c4d29d74689c031dd23dc2.png
<2022-07-07T17:27:08.000Z> hazlin: Is opaque, and just because I am binding the array of vertexes, maybe it isn't passing literally everything, on every draw call xD
<2022-07-07T17:27:34.000Z> hazlin: and, that isn't even complete code
<2022-07-07T17:29:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: binding ( buffer , texture ) means , you make a block of memory known to the opengl driver 
<2022-07-07T17:30:58.000Z> hazlin: and, I am beginning to understand, that doesn't mean, I am calling a complete data transfer again
<2022-07-07T17:31:15.000Z> hazlin: the gl implementation decides that
<2022-07-07T17:31:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: usually this means it will copy it over to video memory, but you have zero control over this, it schedules transfer to video mem completely on its own 
<2022-07-07T17:31:33.000Z> hazlin: ^^^
<2022-07-07T17:32:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fun fact aside, calling a function like glDrawArray ( or any other really ) doesn't actually execute anything 
<2022-07-07T17:32:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it records the function and it's parameters into a queue 
<2022-07-07T17:33:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this means for example that it doesn't block until the drawing is done 
<2022-07-07T17:33:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: if you need to sync : glFlush 
<2022-07-07T17:34:40.000Z> hazlin: so basically, these functions, help to interact loosely with an intermediary object, and then there is a programing over the other side running independently, that also interacts with that object
<2022-07-07T17:35:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah 
<2022-07-07T17:35:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but it's designed in way that you almost never have to think about it, you can just pretend you call some entry function of a  renderer 
<2022-07-07T17:43:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: to your code : the argument to glBindBuffer( named_buffer_enum , buffer_id ) the buffer_id is just a number ( like the gl driver equivalent of a variable name ) 
<2022-07-07T17:46:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it switches between the blocks of memory you (hopefully) shoved into that number beforehand 
<2022-07-07T17:47:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: glDrawArrays *could* take that buffer_id as argument, but noooooooooooooo
<2022-07-07T17:49:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it demands to read it from the ARRAY_BUFFER driver-global-variable, mostly because it hates you 
<2022-07-07T17:50:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( again the design is ancient, the same philosophy was still cumbersome in 1.x but not nearly as insane) 
<2022-07-07T17:51:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it comes from a time when gpu's were asics capable of rastering a single polygon
<2022-07-07T17:52:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and then it makes more sense : you are stuffing registers :) 
<2022-07-07T18:07:26.000Z> hazlin: >mostly because it hates you xD xD xD
<2022-07-07T18:09:38.000Z> hazlin: okay okay, so, the first time I bind the buffer, is to load the data in with gl.bufferData, then later, I just need to rebind the gl_variable name, to let gl.drawArrays know what to draw
<2022-07-07T18:13:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, you will bind more then one buffer for geometry for different meshes you initialize them all in advance, pull out some hair, and then you cycle through them bind buffer1; glDraw* ; bind buffer2 ; glDraw* 
<2022-07-07T18:14:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's the same game for textures and the same game for shaders - you get the hang of it eventually 
<2022-07-07T18:15:03.000Z> hazlin: that makes a lot of sense xD
<2022-07-07T18:15:14.000Z> hazlin: yeah, you've helped me quite a bit 
<2022-07-07T18:18:01.000Z> hazlin: your teacherness has shown through several times where you answered a question I hadn't asked xD
<2022-07-07T18:18:22.000Z> hazlin: but then everything made sense
<2022-07-07T18:18:44.000Z> hazlin: (I realized that may have seconded like a negative at first, but I didn't mean it that way)
<2022-07-07T18:18:51.000Z> hazlin: sounded*
<2022-07-07T18:21:30.000Z> hazlin: Let me just try that again lol, I could really see your teacherness shine through, when I'd get stuck, and you'd answer the question I didn't know I needed answered xD
<2022-07-07T18:21:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *blushes*
<2022-07-07T18:22:09.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-07-07T18:22:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: please be advised i'm hazy on the details 
<2022-07-07T18:22:53.000Z> hazlin: better a hazy map, then no map at all xD
<2022-07-07T18:23:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: >_< 
<2022-07-07T19:07:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hazy details part I :binding such a buffer_id for the first time,effectively typecasts it to the type of buffer it's going to be (screenshot from the std )  https://bae.st/media/93fbcfc233435bb9beab0bb1700ec8abaa5f9b251b1d98c2bd23e6e6e41cba9c.png?name=image.png
<2022-07-08T13:05:32.000Z> hazlin: that feels like more or less what I understood from your explanation 
<2022-07-08T14:05:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but i didn't even know that ^^ 
<2022-07-08T14:12:34.000Z> hazlin: lol xD
<2022-07-09T13:19:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh hey, i'll be off to the land of no internet and manual labor again for two weeks 
<2022-07-09T13:19:35.000Z> hazlin: more carpentry?
<2022-07-09T13:19:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yup :) 
<2022-07-09T13:20:23.000Z> hazlin: btw, I'd been meaning to mention, my email is hazlin@pm.me I'd hate to lose contact if post went down xD
<2022-07-09T13:21:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: cool, i feel honored 
<2022-07-09T13:21:18.000Z> hazlin: I'll add a note to my calendor that you'll be back around the 23rd xD 
<2022-07-09T15:20:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hey, i looked over the webgl examples you send with a finer comb
<2022-07-09T15:22:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the reason they bind the vertex array buffer to a shader variable is because they chose to not take advantage of the "specialness" of the position channel
<2022-07-09T15:23:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: from a different hello triangle example : 
<2022-07-09T15:23:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: const vert_source = """#version 410 corein vec3 vp;void main(void){    gl_Position = vec4(vp, 1.0);}"""
<2022-07-09T15:23:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: notice the "in" keyword
<2022-07-09T15:24:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this one works without the need for such a binding 
<2022-07-09T15:54:12.000Z> hazlin: interesting, you know, I noticed I've been doing on tutorial on webGL 1.0 xD, and that there is a 2.0 version available xD
<2022-07-09T15:57:53.000Z> hazlin: So, I'd wager I am doing several things that have been replaced by newer, better concepts
<2022-07-09T15:58:12.000Z> hazlin: though, I am going to stick with the 1.0 tutorial, then do the 2.0 one afterwards
<2022-07-09T15:58:53.000Z> hazlin: inefficiency, with overcomeplexity being my goal and all xD
<2022-07-09T16:01:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: also i have to come clean here i never actually used modern gl and glsl what i used for teaching was Cg ( predecessor of HLSL ) and oldschool opengl (immediate mode) because i wanted the simplest route towards HLSL (which unity uses - the school was commited to unity as engine ) and then HLSLbecause this way i didn't have to torture them with c++ and the reeeaaally wierd "microsoft flavored c++" that is necessary for DirectX
<2022-07-09T16:04:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > inefficiency, with overcomeplexity being my goal and alllol 
<2022-07-09T16:04:55.000Z> hazlin: is HLSL the predecessor of GLSL?
<2022-07-09T16:05:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no
<2022-07-09T16:06:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: Cg (depricated) and HLSL are very closely related, HLSL is basically Cg++ :) 
<2022-07-09T16:06:31.000Z> hazlin: ah
<2022-07-09T16:06:53.000Z> hazlin: >high-level shading language developed by Nvidia and Microsoft for programming shaders.
<2022-07-09T16:07:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: thing is, Cg is compatible with both gl and DX - also the design is very clever 
<2022-07-09T16:12:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so a lot of what i said is educated guessing, from the assumption that glsl is has to be mostly HLSL in green ( which is a pretty sure bet though, as both designs are dictated from how the hardware works ) you did catch me out cold when you started with current day openGL :) 
<2022-07-09T16:17:51.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fun aside : to illustrate how fucking wierd the c++ api for DX is : there were 3 projects trying to provide a language binding for the MS flagship product .net to the MS flagship product DX- two from microsoft itself- all were abbandoned 
<2022-07-09T16:18:43.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-09T16:19:27.000Z> hazlin: >what i said is educated guessingThe details seem to be less important than actually understanding the fundamentals 
<2022-07-09T16:20:50.000Z> hazlin: I recall that AMD had their own gambit at a universal language called Mantel 
<2022-07-09T16:21:03.000Z> hazlin: dis appeared into history as well xD
<2022-07-09T16:22:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: not quite, it's called vulkan today :) 
<2022-07-09T16:23:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the khronos group rebranded it 
<2022-07-09T16:23:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *i think* haha :) 
<2022-07-09T16:23:51.000Z> hazlin: ah xD
<2022-07-09T16:24:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: * really needs to work on intellectual hubris * 
<2022-07-09T17:15:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: also doomspaghetti@mail2tor.com
<2022-07-09T19:02:05.000Z> hazlin: added to contactts
<2022-07-09T21:23:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: do you have a reason to believe that poast will go down, and soon on top of it?
<2022-07-09T22:37:29.000Z> hazlin: naa, it is like buying food for an emergency, you can buy all you like before the emergency, but once it happens it can be hard to buy anything xD
<2022-07-09T22:44:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: "Android 10 requires all 64bit devices to support Vulkan 1.1" 
<2022-07-09T22:44:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: stop, my penis can only get so ... 
<2022-07-09T22:44:41.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-09T22:48:37.000Z> hazlin: I'm not sure how I feel about smart phone gaming, though I have enjoyed the switch
<2022-07-09T22:49:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i don't care for it  at all - except for maybe cardboardVR
<2022-07-09T22:50:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i liked that note because it basically cements the survival of a graphics api that isn't DirectX
<2022-07-09T22:51:20.000Z> hazlin: oh i c xD 
<2022-07-09T22:52:47.000Z> hazlin: >"Android 10 requires all 64bit devices to support Vulkan 1.1" >stop, my penis can only get so ... *must mean he can't get any harder*>i don't care for it  at all - except for maybe cardboardVR*...must have meant he can't get any limper*>i liked that note because it basically cements the survival of a graphics api that isn't DirectX*oh*
<2022-07-09T22:53:51.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :)
<2022-07-09T22:56:43.000Z> hazlin: sftp tells me I have to setup RSA keys to run it in batch made, so I am going to instead, write a python wrapper that uses gnu-screen to do the same thing with an interactive session xD
<2022-07-09T22:57:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ^______^oh boy 
<2022-07-09T22:58:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how does screen help with scripting against an interactive process?
<2022-07-09T22:59:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fake being connected to a terminal instead of just a pipe?
<2022-07-09T23:02:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( python opengl bindings are pretty comfy by the way ) 
<2022-07-09T23:02:13.000Z> hazlin: hmm, I've get to learn how to seamlessly get input in and out of long running processes with pipes, those seem best for discrete interactions 
<2022-07-09T23:02:18.000Z> hazlin: 'screen -x '+self.screen_name+' -p 0 -X stuff "'+inputx+r'$(printf \\r)"'
<2022-07-09T23:02:37.000Z> hazlin: however, I can send that to a screen session, and it will execute inputx
<2022-07-09T23:03:28.000Z> hazlin: the program on the other side, think it is straight keyboard input, and nothing hangs up
<2022-07-09T23:05:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i see ( not that i had used screen for more than two days ) 
<2022-07-09T23:06:38.000Z> hazlin: hehe well, I am certain there are other ways to do things, especially because almost no one seems to use screen, and that really makes me wonder how they manage long running processes on headless servers xD
<2022-07-09T23:07:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's the only argument i understood for using it - "your shit doesn't die with your connection"
<2022-07-09T23:08:04.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/e688da918701d5ec30f14375e0a41931f4121d2619b88387a97e4f99ebef741a.png
<2022-07-09T23:08:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well you can unparent processes from your  sshd spawned shell 
<2022-07-09T23:09:13.000Z> hazlin: That is a good use case, another one that I had, modded minecraft servers were not the most stable of things xD, so, I'd have a python script, check the cli for zero players, then run a backup of the server, a graceful halt, and a server restart
<2022-07-09T23:09:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: aha
<2022-07-09T23:11:33.000Z> hazlin: >( python opengl bindings are pretty comfy by the way )I'm sort of trying to get away from python, it feels out of control, with all its downloading and scripting running during installation xD
<2022-07-09T23:14:35.000Z> hazlin: for better or worse, I feel must like using JS, it just isn't good for local processing, because I don't trust nodejs as far as I can throw it xD
<2022-07-09T23:15:02.000Z> hazlin: and bun, is litereally installed with a curl bash
<2022-07-09T23:15:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: bun?
<2022-07-09T23:15:30.000Z> hazlin: did I mention that my education was cyber security xD
<2022-07-09T23:15:57.000Z> hazlin: it is getting in the way of just enjoying and using nodejs
<2022-07-09T23:16:21.000Z> hazlin: bun.sh/ https://i.poastcdn.org/2d35a6e59591d7c017045ea69233355cc84f563263c0dae1a943ecd5b15c0212.png
<2022-07-09T23:16:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i understand wanting to move to something cleaner than python but node ... is like the king of shoddy ( excluding php but we don't speak of it ) 
<2022-07-09T23:17:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: aha 
<2022-07-09T23:17:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no you didn't mention that :) 
<2022-07-09T23:18:30.000Z> hazlin: I sort of had to back burner CL, or these computer tasks, because its equivalent to pythons, os.system or subprocess.Popen, just errors out at some of the terminal output, and I can't yet see how to debug it
<2022-07-09T23:19:23.000Z> hazlin: I am getting the strong feeling that CL is only really used as a second language with C being the primary interface 
<2022-07-09T23:22:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: check this : https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/running-external-programs/it's the most reasonable "subset of bash while also clean in implementation and semantics" i have seen so far
<2022-07-09T23:23:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's *almost* good enough as a shell replacement as is 
<2022-07-09T23:23:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: because you said you would like a shell replacement from within lisp 
<2022-07-09T23:24:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well julia IS a lisp ( but way cooler ) 
<2022-07-09T23:25:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i actually managed to make a dbus binding in under a week 
<2022-07-09T23:25:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and it almost worked ^______^ 
<2022-07-13T03:50:48.000Z> hazlin: :O
<2022-07-13T03:53:52.000Z> hazlin: Julia does seem interesting 
<2022-07-13T03:54:05.000Z> hazlin: I actually looked it up on rosetta code last time you mentioned it
<2022-07-13T03:54:48.000Z> hazlin: it seems a lot like python is syntax style
<2022-07-13T04:02:42.000Z> hazlin: however, my obsession with CL isn't that is a lisp, but rather that it allows unsafe macros, reader macros, context unaware injections, and much in the way of duality of syntax.  Many of these features are expedited by the use of S-expressions. 
<2022-07-13T04:03:28.000Z> hazlin: In addition to things found in javascript, like dynamic objects, and lambda functions 
<2022-07-13T04:09:08.000Z> hazlin: essentially I am convinced that it is the single most powerful programming language, and will allow any programmer to grow an unlimited amount, only being restricted by imagination and creativity, rather than time required work around a language 
<2022-07-13T04:11:32.000Z> hazlin: but there in lay the issue, this is essentially, an anti-IDE assistance, and anti-replaceable coder, tool. So it is fallen far out of favor.
<2022-07-13T04:17:18.000Z> hazlin: But, the value I see within CL, make it feel worth learning about C and calling foreign functions, and even how to call python functions... which seems counter intuitive to my purposes, but at least python has a robust standard library.
<2022-07-13T04:20:20.000Z> hazlin: I'm also not sure about developing in the REPL. A perfect example that causes apprehension would be, creating a function in the global scope, and then simply forgetting about it, because I cleared the buffer, and can no longer see it xD
<2022-07-13T05:35:43.000Z> hazlin: On another note, I figured out why "ls" was erroring out when I ran it from CL, it was some sort of path race condition, by specifying the ls I wanted to use, everything worked fine :D (uiop:run-program "/bin/ls -a --full-time ~/" :output t)
<2022-07-23T21:34:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hey 
<2022-07-23T21:34:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: holy fuck 
<2022-07-23T21:35:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a friend of mine just came by the very moment i left the train station 
<2022-07-23T21:36:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but it was the alcoholic friend of mine 
<2022-07-23T21:37:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there is no way in hell i'll be able to give you a proper answer this evening - so i'm not even going to try 
<2022-07-23T21:37:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: >_< 
<2022-07-23T21:48:42.000Z> hazlin: lol!
<2022-07-23T21:48:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm not even sure what "context unaware injections" refers to, but i also never used scheme derived languages to the point where i was frustrated with their macro capabilities 
<2022-07-23T21:49:00.000Z> hazlin: no worries my friend! 
<2022-07-23T21:49:15.000Z> hazlin: I am glad you have returned right on scheduled :D
<2022-07-23T21:50:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this was like movie tier timeing it's not like we saw each other from afar, but literally bumped into each other 
<2022-07-23T21:51:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so how was life? 
<2022-07-23T21:52:15.000Z> hazlin: pretty good. I've been doing some work for the family business, and, AND discovering that Krita can handle PSD files like a champ
<2022-07-23T21:52:49.000Z> hazlin: so, this will be the first iteration of ads I complete without using adobe at all
<2022-07-23T21:53:56.000Z> hazlin: Though, I am going to have to use, either Blender or InkScape for path based objects, the closest Krita has is, you make the path, but you can't go backwards, and as soon as you complete the shape, it stops beiing a path
<2022-07-23T21:54:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i almost mellowed out at the cost - you know bodily excertion, doing something useful .... and then i had a train ride back, cross germany, with an extended stop in berlin - save to say my power level is fully rechared ^____^ 
<2022-07-23T21:55:23.000Z> hazlin: lol, it sounds liike you've enjoyed yourself once again :D
<2022-07-23T21:55:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *krita stuff* coool :) 
<2022-07-23T21:56:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah it was great, no internet , nofap, honest work under the sun 
<2022-07-23T21:57:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: psycholoigists don't want you to know this, but ... 
<2022-07-23T21:57:36.000Z> hazlin: >psycholoigists hate him, learn this one simple trick to being happy
<2022-07-23T21:57:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-07-23T22:01:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what do you need paths for?
<2022-07-23T22:01:49.000Z> hazlin: Most commonly for masking, that is cutting shapes in intermediary layers 
<2022-07-23T22:02:02.000Z> hazlin: sometimes for making custom shapes
<2022-07-23T22:02:14.000Z> hazlin: but I am usually working with stock images
<2022-07-23T22:03:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you are in this phase where you are absolutely commited to use open source no matter how much pain it causes?
<2022-07-23T22:04:13.000Z> hazlin: hmm, more like, I've been trying to move for a long time, but when i hit a roadblock, I just open PS up, and finish there, because the work has to be completed on a time table xD
<2022-07-23T22:04:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ahh :) 
<2022-07-23T22:04:56.000Z> hazlin: however, I am to the point where, I can do everything, including save the file as a CMYK with lossless formatting, without touching PS
<2022-07-23T22:05:09.000Z> hazlin: it, just didn't happen in one step xD
<2022-07-23T22:05:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: because i totally overdid that gig - to the point that don't even know what ps looks like - and looking back, i feel pretty stupid 
<2022-07-23T22:07:44.000Z> hazlin: I know that feeling. I even tried that years ago, but the alternatives couldn't meet my needs at the time
<2022-07-23T22:07:58.000Z> hazlin: but now, now, I am not losing out on anything
<2022-07-23T22:08:23.000Z> hazlin: Krita+blender is better than PS alone
<2022-07-23T22:08:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh man i had two weeks of exclusively boomer music and state media 
<2022-07-23T22:08:49.000Z> hazlin: pff
<2022-07-23T22:09:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: blasting the neighborhood with some mgla 
<2022-07-23T22:09:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ears are haeling 
<2022-07-23T22:14:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: "Krita+blender is better than PS alone"bold claim but i never used PS :) 
<2022-07-23T22:20:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: shit 
<2022-07-23T22:21:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i left all the food at my friends 
<2022-07-23T22:21:39.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-07-23T22:21:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: of course this house has zero food in it - it would all have been spoiled by now 
<2022-07-23T22:22:20.000Z> hazlin: well all PS has going for it, is it combines paths and raster, in the same program like a gimp+inkscape hybread 
<2022-07-23T22:23:07.000Z> hazlin: essentially, using PS saves you from having to switch between programs
<2022-07-23T22:23:25.000Z> hazlin: other than that, it is no better at raster than gimp, and no better at paths than inkscape
<2022-07-23T22:23:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i see 
<2022-07-23T22:30:01.000Z> hazlin: I'm currently using Krita over gimp, well the first reason is, gimp has terrible memory management, and I was getting OOM'ed with these large images. I think each history step is a compressed array of the entire image xD. And, now I am even more committed to it, after discovering how it handles CMYK and PS files.
<2022-07-23T22:30:31.000Z> hazlin: that should have been "uncompressed array"
<2022-07-23T22:31:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i do the same my reasons are less technical i just grew to hat gimp 
<2022-07-23T22:32:00.000Z> hazlin: lol!
<2022-07-23T22:32:19.000Z> hazlin: is it anything in particular about gimp?
<2022-07-23T22:36:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i used for ~10 years it never improved in any way that wasn't thoroghly underwhelming, like : it took them forever to do seemingly trivial things like rotating a layer in real time - which lead me to conclude that it's codebase must be a nightmare to work with 
<2022-07-23T22:36:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( the other option is that the people working on it are incompetent to a comical degree which i can't believe ) 
<2022-07-23T22:38:37.000Z> hazlin: I feel the same :DHowever, after using PS first, and for several decades at this point, there just isn't that much difference between the two, PS is just more polished, and has all the path tools spliced in 
<2022-07-23T22:38:39.000Z> hazlin: actually
<2022-07-23T22:38:57.000Z> hazlin: I've always wanted to make my own replacement for gimp
<2022-07-23T22:39:08.000Z> hazlin: because, it should be a lot better 
<2022-07-23T22:41:51.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: "because, it should be a lot better "
<2022-07-23T22:42:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yes it absolutely should
<2022-07-23T22:42:15.000Z> hazlin: ALSO I HATE the interface direction for both gimp and inkscape
<2022-07-23T22:42:28.000Z> hazlin: those small grey icons get harder to read with each release xD 
<2022-07-23T22:42:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i wonder what the hidden difficulties in this area are 
<2022-07-23T22:42:51.000Z> hazlin: before you know it, that will be, two tone grey on grey, with no contrast at all xD
<2022-07-23T22:44:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: if it was easy to do someone would have already done it - there must be like ~10.000 comp-sci nerds out there who are itching to do a better job 
<2022-07-23T22:46:53.000Z> hazlin: >if it was easy to do someone would have already done itThat is always a tempting thought, but like with everything else, it is probably a matter of persistence 
<2022-07-23T22:47:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you could say the krita guys are one of those 
<2022-07-23T22:48:04.000Z> hazlin: Yeah :D
<2022-07-23T22:48:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: they just chose an other area of focus 
<2022-07-23T22:49:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it is really impressive at what it sets out to do 
<2022-07-23T22:49:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it doesn't set out to be a replacement for gimp, sadly 
<2022-07-23T22:50:16.000Z> hazlin: hmm what is missing that you use?
<2022-07-23T22:52:05.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what i always tried to use gimp for, now is termed photo bashing, gimp frustrated me to no end with this - krita doesn't even try to be good at this 
<2022-07-23T22:53:10.000Z> hazlin: Oh, do you mean, like cutting up images, and then drawing over the top of them?
<2022-07-23T22:53:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sort of 
<2022-07-23T22:53:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it
<2022-07-23T22:54:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's not intersting any more - every concept artist does this 
<2022-07-23T22:58:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this is kind of my main thing - and what i also try to do with the ushell project - i always see artistic processes that "should" be able with computers - and on paper already are but the tools are so cumbersome that you can't really use them without losing the "flow" 
<2022-07-23T23:08:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st attached file https://bae.st/media/c69f7d640b9f1c7c13d360299c3084bd57f461b2cafee0edcebd7525c00345f7.JPG?name=IMG_0909%5B1%5D.JPG
<2022-07-23T23:09:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the design of these connectors are sexy a.f. - makes you wanna blender some mechas don't they :) 
<2022-07-23T23:10:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ... one of them fell into my pockets >_> 
<2022-07-24T00:54:16.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-07-24T00:54:28.000Z> hazlin: It does make me want to blender them
<2022-07-24T00:55:10.000Z> hazlin: I also really want to blender the stuff 14 has been posting poa.st/@14/posts/ALnGGTauByiFRSJ5xQ
<2022-07-24T07:04:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: wow that looks like quite the challange
<2022-07-24T10:52:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > an anti-IDE assistance, and anti-replaceable coderhehehehheh :) it also has a higher threshold for minimum iq required to use effectively 
<2022-07-24T11:12:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: >  because I cleared the buffer, and can no longer see it xDyou can't read out some nametable, like python `dir()`
<2022-07-24T11:12:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ?
<2022-07-24T11:13:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: does CL use multi-methods bdw?
<2022-07-24T12:50:39.000Z> hazlin: >like python `dir()`Maybe, still learning it xD Honestly I learned so much about the essence of programming, by learning about CL, the answer I was looking for seems to be, code with a pen and paper. It is only then that I can use the most powerful U-language, the language with the greatest power to me, later I translate those into a rigid language of runable code.
<2022-07-24T12:51:05.000Z> hazlin: CL is the closest to U-language, but it can never reach U-language 
<2022-07-24T12:51:34.000Z> hazlin: and in learning this I was freed from worrying about runnable languages all together xD
<2022-07-24T12:54:47.000Z> hazlin: which means, since my runnable code isn't the blueprint of the program, I shouldn't have to dir() (which I will admit, is a bit counter to what you were replying to, but this is all still coming together for me xD)
<2022-07-24T12:56:03.000Z> hazlin: though, a dir(), along with other introspection tools, would be needed to debug or pick apart something in a REPL session 
<2022-07-24T12:58:48.000Z> hazlin: To try and consolidate that into something that is more concise, I've been hounding CL, because it will allow me to code like I think, but in the pursuit, I discovered that runnable languages will always be limited because they have to obey set rules to be runnable xD So the solution all along was to code with my maximum level of expression with pen and paper
<2022-07-24T13:04:50.000Z> hazlin: First I thought I need to write a compiler, then I saw CL as an even better solution than a compiler (a dynamic compiler), then I saw that I was driving closer and closer to just plain English and diagrams. By that time the reality though obvious has taken some time too sink in, decouple, first express freely, then code in the best language for the job. xD
<2022-07-24T13:22:31.000Z> hazlin: >does CL use multi-methodsWhat is multi-method?
<2022-07-24T16:00:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's a dispatch mechanism over runtime types, a lot like polymorphism in OO
<2022-07-24T16:02:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehe this whole last paragraph set: replace CL with lisps in general and it could be my words very much including the pen and paper parts 
<2022-07-24T23:46:07.000Z> hazlin: I've been using it in a strictly non-static-typed manner, so I'm not 100% on whether or not multi-method is supported. However, the feeling I get, is you are expected to use a single function, and after performing introspection on the types, process them accordingly. I bet you could create a modified function declaration macro that composites more visually appealing multi-method declarations into the same function name.  
<2022-07-24T23:49:08.000Z> hazlin: >including the pen and paper partsWhen I came to that understanding, looking back on my programming history, some of my best work was done without opening a text editor until the design was completed xDNow, I just need to make pen and paper my new GOTO, I've started keeping a notebook beside me when I am at the computer xD
<2022-07-24T23:54:00.000Z> hazlin: Much of that success was using powerpoint to diagram out a program. I'm actually not sure if using a tool like that, or pen and paper is best, a balance of expression against speed
<2022-07-25T07:54:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pen and paper all the way :) 
<2022-07-25T07:54:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: https://youtu.be/mLEOZO1GwVc?t=251
<2022-07-25T11:37:08.000Z> hazlin: know all the formulas by heart, and if you need more than 5 lines, your on the wrong track xD
<2022-07-25T11:38:29.000Z> hazlin: I agree I agree
<2022-07-25T11:41:56.000Z> hazlin: how thought provoking
<2022-07-25T12:03:13.000Z> hazlin: I think that would make a good precursor to my statement.After losing intellectual control, after being crushed by complexity, the need for simplicity became clear, the need for utter elegance became a requirement, not a compiler, not a dynamic language, but instead the solution was pen and paper. 
<2022-07-25T12:06:37.000Z> hazlin: You know, I've already been doing this with my parents business. I've stuck to the most simplistic model you could imagine, and it has made the math and projections so easy, that with the smallest amount of data, I've been withing a few thousand dollars of the tax return numbers each year xD
<2022-07-25T12:08:06.000Z> hazlin: My mom has often thought that we need more data, more detail, often spending many hours after hours to update our information, but it comes out almost the same as the simple business model, and never enough difference to take a different action xD
<2022-07-25T12:14:37.000Z> hazlin: I'm not sure if they do not actually understand the business model, or if the responsibility is too much, and they'd just rather me handle it xD Either way, it makes me feel useful to them.
<2022-07-25T13:44:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the pen and paper thing, i do it way less often then i should 
<2022-07-25T13:46:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: in our age, with an endless torrent of noise streaming at you from all directions we - i for certain - lost the ability to calm our minds, sort our thoughts, take inventory of what we know and what we only assume 
<2022-07-25T13:47:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i usually need a whole day "meditate back" to the state at which i actually can solve my problem on paper
<2022-07-25T13:47:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: at the end of that day i feel like an idiot
<2022-07-25T13:47:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the next day is much better 
<2022-07-25T13:49:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the code produced that way is a lot shorter, cleaner, and i *know* it to be correct ( +/- some trivial compile errors when writing it down ) 
<2022-07-25T20:48:28.000Z> hazlin: >( +/- some trivial compile errors when writing it down ) I actually think this is a benefit of pen and paper xD Battling the details of implementation should not greatly alter the program, and there for, should not be soaking up your attention during design 
<2022-07-26T22:13:29.000Z> hazlin: I saw crunklord link this github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/566
<2022-07-26T22:14:52.000Z> hazlin: I read some of the things, they seem to mainly criticisms about the syntax, rather than a real issue, like performance 
<2022-07-26T22:15:26.000Z> hazlin: but it seems to be designed in an a anti-elegant way xD
<2022-07-26T22:16:16.000Z> hazlin: perhaps my favorite was that they added a "continuing break" as a feature xD
<2022-07-27T12:12:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lol the first comment is code of conduct drivel pottery :) 
<2022-07-27T12:24:58.000Z> hazlin: The solution seems obvious, just make a transpiler that takes in a lean straightforward syntax and spits out... w/e that is, websl?
<2022-07-27T12:26:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what is the problem they are trying to solve? 
<2022-07-27T12:32:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: https://en.de1lib.org/book/11643767/3b92ddjust got this for my next trip innawoods 
<2022-07-27T12:36:48.000Z> hazlin: ooo this looks amazing
<2022-07-28T11:59:30.000Z> hazlin: I think this is the material I should have learned in Evaluation of Algorithms 
<2022-07-28T12:22:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how much theroretical comp-sci is there in an itsec program?
<2022-07-28T12:31:56.000Z> hazlin: that feels a bit vague xD But, I am going make some implicit assumptions and reply anyway xD If itsec is IT Security, then very often I dealt with massive databases of logs, windows logs, and firewall logs. Often the tools I head to deal with were written like boiled shit, and couldn't handle the volume of logs their systems generated, they really needed theoretical comp-sci help xD Also, automating business logic was something encountered a lot. When you are dealing with thousands of PC endpoints, evaluation of vulnerability, tracking remediation, delegating physical interactions with devices, all needs to happen as a continuous process. I found myself sometimes creating completely enumerated sets of IF statements to ensure predictable behavior. xD
<2022-07-28T12:34:05.000Z> hazlin: Sometimes management would complain about complete enumeration, however, I literally never had to touch that code again, it worked correctly for years. Unlike many other pieces of business logic code xD
<2022-07-28T12:53:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehe 
<2022-07-28T12:54:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i dropped out of comp-sci and worked for security company as my first job :) 
<2022-07-28T12:54:40.000Z> hazlin: smart xD
<2022-07-28T12:55:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: seeing how ad-hoc all those B2B systems are that are responsible for shuffling millions around had me both socked and amazed 
<2022-07-28T12:56:23.000Z> hazlin: same, they make bitcoin seem sane 
<2022-07-28T12:59:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: all those logging systems > just text that you basically need to write a parser for > no there is no language definition > just do ... whatever
<2022-07-28T13:10:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: to clarify i was weather they tought stuff like " regex , context free grammars , finite automata , are essentially the same thing and here is how you proof that formally" 
<2022-07-28T14:35:34.000Z> hazlin: they didn't where I went to school
<2022-07-28T14:35:56.000Z> hazlin: in fact, they taught lots of things I've had to unlearn lol
<2022-07-28T14:38:53.000Z> hazlin: more of the more surreal classes, uhh, not even sure what it was called. Distributed Systems? In any case, we learned about designs that no one used anywhere because they were complex and error prone. I tried to press the professor on it at one point, but he was having none of it
<2022-07-28T14:39:57.000Z> hazlin: same class where the big project was, synchronize the clocks across multiple computers without going back in time, using either the distributed average or a master as the source of truth
<2022-07-28T14:40:44.000Z> hazlin: I was the only person that was able to synchronize my clock to within 1 ms... it was very easy, and the teacher was amazed 
<2022-07-28T14:41:44.000Z> hazlin: (that is my clocks, across several VM running on a single machine)
<2022-07-28T14:45:17.000Z> hazlin: Back more on topic to our general discussion, I think programming proofs and programming U-language are the two extremes of programing expressions
<2022-07-28T14:49:05.000Z> hazlin: But, not in an adversarial way, just a not at the same time, kinda way. It seems to me like, I'll be using the following sequence.U-Language Blue Prints -> proofs for discrete pieces -> runnable implementation
<2022-07-28T16:58:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: is U-language a term you coined for yourself?i never seen it elsewhere 
<2022-07-28T17:04:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *thinking about the sync problem* :) 
<2022-07-28T17:14:44.000Z> hazlin: u-language is used in a lot of the lisp stuff I've ready. It just means your highest level of expression... and is shorter so I say that instead xD
<2022-07-28T17:15:01.000Z> hazlin: I've ready -> I've read*
<2022-07-28T17:29:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you have a function that sends a network request for the local time of an other machine and the ability to measure how long it takes until an answer arrives request/response timing is T_n  ( for remote machine n ) difference between own time and reported remote time is d_nestimate the actual delta in time to be    d_n - T_n/2 do this multiple times for each of the n remotes and average the results use the highest "averaged estimated delta" to increment own time, unless all of them are negative - then do nothing every machine does this if need be repeat the process ? what did you do ? 
<2022-07-28T17:32:36.000Z> hazlin: That is essentially what I did, however, I also computed my rate of change, so that convergence would happen after 5 seconds, I did this every second, and I set a maximum and minimum rate of change
<2022-07-28T17:33:01.000Z> hazlin: this was very important for the result going to exactly the correct time
<2022-07-28T17:33:26.000Z> hazlin: with a swifter transition they seems to bounce around the correct time
<2022-07-28T17:36:17.000Z> hazlin: No one else treated it as a future convergence problem, and they could only get to about +- 1 second of convergence 
<2022-07-28T17:39:21.000Z> hazlin: I suspect that there exists an Fourier approximation of the related rates problem, to provide clock convergence, but even now, I've not yet learned enough to feel comfortable with that approach, and so, I just preformed the linear calculation every so often. 
<2022-07-28T17:43:44.000Z> hazlin: something like t_true + 5000 = rate * 5 + t_local where rate = clamp( rate , 700 , 1300)
<2022-07-28T17:46:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: can't deceiver that last line at all 
<2022-07-28T17:47:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: de-cypher - whatever - your guys spelling is all over the place man 
<2022-07-28T17:47:52.000Z> hazlin: processing...
<2022-07-28T17:53:55.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/dd42c3e1c87f4e3fabbe03aec9d34d90d2f40352032d2f28c881e9edbf5f6300.png
<2022-07-28T17:57:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ahhhhhhhh  :) 
<2022-07-28T18:00:04.000Z> hazlin: Essentially, what rate will cause convergence in 5 seconds, then clamp said rate to a min and max value.
<2022-07-28T18:01:21.000Z> hazlin: since the convergence happens over a network, the little bit of delay will cause bouncing if you try and step straight too the solution 
<2022-07-28T18:04:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how does it help to adjust the local time incrementally ( assuming that is what you suggest ) the noise introduced by the network is constant, not a function of however big the delta_t between two nodes is no?
<2022-07-28T18:05:25.000Z> hazlin: I think it turned out to be, not constant at a certain level of accuracy 
<2022-07-28T18:05:42.000Z> hazlin: though, I didn't really focus on that
<2022-07-28T18:05:51.000Z> hazlin: so I am not sure if that is true
<2022-07-28T18:08:31.000Z> hazlin: for example  https://i.poastcdn.org/f67f428b9958b3c21cd5d2014176bca540c4c853c39c227d4381e11bb1f2edae.png
<2022-07-28T18:09:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh, i think i know :) you don't use "rate" as the absolute amount to offset the local clock but as a factor which scales the offset down, approaching zero when you approach your "time of convergence" ?
<2022-07-28T18:10:19.000Z> hazlin: ahh, in this case rate, is ms in a second, for the local clock
<2022-07-28T18:10:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sure "constant noise" as in, always the same distribution 
<2022-07-28T18:15:28.000Z> hazlin: the incremental change helps to mitigate the influence of outlier delta_t measurements. Another technique could have been to capture multiple samples and change the rate based off the average.
<2022-07-28T18:17:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i see 
<2022-07-28T18:17:27.000Z> hazlin: The project guidelines implied that our target environment would need to continue to operate, writing files, and what not, using the clock during convergence, so incremental changes would keep things from being time stamped out of order
<2022-07-28T18:21:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pretty cool :) 
<2022-07-28T18:24:02.000Z> hazlin: yes, well confounding even the teacher with my perfect convergence in a real time demonstration certainly is a fond memory xD
<2022-07-28T18:25:03.000Z> hazlin: but, looking back, it makes me think "those jokers may not have known as much as they pretended" xD
<2022-07-28T18:25:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: can confirm t. former teacher :) 
<2022-07-28T18:27:00.000Z> hazlin: ah well, I had many teachers I greatly enjoyed, but there were some, like this one, that made me feel like I was dumb, and just didn't understand things at the time
<2022-07-28T18:28:21.000Z> hazlin: I even had my major professor in grad school tell me, and I quote "you are my shame"
<2022-07-28T18:29:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a while back i watched some university lecture that almost gave physical pain > yup > this dude bluffing > he discovered on the spot that wasn't as sure about his grasp of the subject as he thought he was and is now sweating bullets and trying to hide it i've been there, i know exactly what that looks like :) 
<2022-07-28T18:29:13.000Z> hazlin: it took me many years to be able to look back, and abjectly untangle that mess of situation and emotions xD
<2022-07-28T18:29:57.000Z> hazlin: abjectly -> objectively
<2022-07-28T18:31:03.000Z> hazlin: >is now sweating bullets and trying to hide itYou know, there are some people, that just so forcefully reject what you are trying to teach them, you begin to doubt yourself xD
<2022-07-28T18:35:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no i actually wasn't sure i never had enough time to prepare a one hour lecture needs at least a full day to prepare i did _all_ the things i found stupid at teachers i had these are stalling techniques to postpone the point where you reach the end of your preparation 
<2022-07-28T18:35:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: like asking the audience :) 
<2022-07-28T18:37:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: or expressing yourself in needlessly dense jargon ( hoping that nobody understands you and thus a mistake will go unnoticed ) 
<2022-07-28T18:37:38.000Z> hazlin: xD xD
<2022-07-28T18:38:35.000Z> hazlin: My dad taught programming many years ago, ended up with successful students... my dad can't program at all, so I can only imaging how his classes went xD
<2022-07-28T18:39:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: wait what? XD
<2022-07-28T18:40:00.000Z> hazlin: yeah, when I was a kid, he got a job at a technical college, and after some time, they ended up in a bind, where they didn't have anyone to teach a programming class, so they had him do it
<2022-07-28T18:40:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lol 
<2022-07-28T18:43:14.000Z> hazlin: he taught, C++, Java, SQL, and a class on linux... at least those are the books we still have from when he was doing that
<2022-07-28T18:43:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: holy fuck the poor guy 
<2022-07-28T18:45:32.000Z> hazlin: He, didn't seem to mind. The best results were from when he taught public speaking, and most of his class had criminal records
<2022-07-28T18:45:56.000Z> hazlin: so he turned the whole class into a series of interviews, where he taught them how to spin their situations into positives 
<2022-07-28T18:46:29.000Z> hazlin: every single one was able to get a job in the IT field (the focus of the school)
<2022-07-28T18:46:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the toughest thing was teaching OOi couldn't tell the students what i actually think of it ( pure cargo cult and a curse on mankind ) i had to walk the tight rope between pretending that this made some kind of sense, because otherwise it would kill all motivation of which they didn't had that much to begin with, and not infecting them with this curse 
<2022-07-28T18:47:16.000Z> hazlin: oh! I could imagine!
<2022-07-28T18:47:57.000Z> hazlin: they did the same thing to me in school, I was all about inheritance and polymorphism, took me a long time to realize that was just making things needlessly complex xD
<2022-07-28T18:50:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i once found a generic java class that implemented depth-first-searchseveral pages of documentation no that wasn't a joke 
<2022-07-28T19:04:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: on an unrelated note 
<2022-07-28T19:04:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st attached file https://bae.st/media/3765db63ae97b3724fd9a6bfa133148c5db799ab66276b6ea05966186ce1a638.png?name=image.png
<2022-07-28T19:05:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i wondered if hunter x hunter is also inspired by some nip folk tale like the mc from dragon ball 
<2022-07-28T19:06:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: last blade also has a martial arts master fighting with a fishing rod 
<2022-07-28T22:34:12.000Z> hazlin: I'm not sure, but after watching the original hunter x hunter series I recognized where several anime got their inspiration xD
<2022-07-30T11:47:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i threw alpine linux in a vm yesterday i have to say i like it a lot base installation is literally done in 2 minutes no systemdno bullshit just werks :) i really want to throw this on the metal when i come back 
<2022-07-30T11:56:59.000Z> hazlin: It does look nice
<2022-07-30T11:57:10.000Z> hazlin: It was one of the ones I considered for my main desktop
<2022-07-30T11:57:45.000Z> hazlin: I have it set aside for server use, but I wanted something that would hold my hand more for every day use xD
<2022-07-30T12:00:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i only use linux for technical stuff, it usually takes half a year until i notice whether a sound driver is installed 
<2022-07-30T12:01:05.000Z> hazlin: well then it sounds like alpine is perfect for you :D
<2022-07-30T12:01:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah i think so too 
<2022-07-30T12:01:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-07-30T12:06:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i thought you were into these self flaggelation distros like arch/gentoo ? 
<2022-07-30T12:08:27.000Z> hazlin: I do not seek pain lol, when I made the full switch to linux, I'd already had experience with Debian, Rasbian, Ubuntu, and Pop_OS!, however they were all very frustrating in one way or another, I'd seen artix talked up a lot, so I made that my first primary linux distro 
<2022-07-30T12:09:04.000Z> hazlin: but soon discovered you have you updated to the latest version of the rolling release, and that they were pushed in a reckless manner
<2022-07-30T12:09:42.000Z> hazlin: and ended up in a situation, where I needed my PC to work right now, for a business related task, and it didn't work at all, because the update was beyond my skill to fix xD
<2022-07-30T12:10:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah, rolling releases burned me once too often 
<2022-07-30T12:11:03.000Z> hazlin: So, after more searching, I settled on MX-Linux, which has been amazingly reliable 
<2022-07-30T12:12:04.000Z> hazlin: my peripherals work, the gpu worked out of the box, everything has just worked
<2022-07-30T12:12:14.000Z> hazlin: and updates have never broken anything
<2022-07-30T12:12:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i had the exact same thing as a student i needed just one trivial command line utility and gentoo decided it needed to update Xorg and _all_ of its dependencies - and *of course* the makfiles were broken which left me with effectively no computer at all and a deadline of tomorrow XDnever again 
<2022-07-30T12:13:40.000Z> hazlin: ^^^
<2022-07-30T12:13:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sounds cool 
<2022-07-30T12:14:25.000Z> hazlin: I've also eliminated MS office from all my workflows, because well, it crapped out a lot, not a program failure, but authenticating account shenanigans 
<2022-07-30T12:14:56.000Z> hazlin: And, now finally, adobe cloud, has been eliminated, making my workflow extremely stable, and free :D
<2022-07-30T12:16:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i somehow managed to avoid all of office/excel stuff entirely, free or non free i can barely use it at all :) 
<2022-07-30T12:18:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > Proudly anti-fascist "antiX Magic" in an environment suitable for old and new computers. XD
<2022-07-30T12:18:59.000Z> hazlin: Ahh, well in school and work, MS excel was used, almost exclusively xD So, I ended up using it a lot. I'd say it's primary strength is you can always see the data.
<2022-07-30T12:19:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i read around in the spec of exceland noped out hard and fast 
<2022-07-30T12:20:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: dates for example are stored as floats under the hood 
<2022-07-30T12:20:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: wtf
<2022-07-30T12:23:01.000Z> hazlin: Ah, well I never dug into it, never even used its macros. It (or Libre Office Calc, that I know use) are excellent tools. Something about seeing all the data in real time makes errors or mistakes, especially outliers easy to see
<2022-07-30T12:24:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh they (mx) have a fluxbox version what a blast from the past ^________^
<2022-07-30T12:26:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehe :) i like factorio so much because it's like programming, except you see the inner workings at all times 
<2022-07-30T12:26:41.000Z> hazlin: I thought the same
<2022-07-30T12:27:41.000Z> hazlin: the items are the data, the logistics are how data maps to functions, and the machines are the functions 
<2022-07-30T12:29:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah it's like map/reduce , and then you optimize for throughput, and then you zoom out and on radar your factory looks like a microscope photo of a cpu 
<2022-07-30T12:33:42.000Z> hazlin: yeah :D
<2022-07-30T12:39:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: loading the umpteenth death world marathon map rn XDDDD
<2022-07-30T12:46:07.000Z> hazlin: I usually do it the other way around, tons of resources, and then I build very tightly compact structures xD
<2022-07-30T12:51:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah i compose reusable modules that have the relative number of factories tailored to the crafting times so that all components always run at 100% capacity :) then tinker for minimum space used tinker for looking pretty then tinker some more 
<2022-07-30T13:52:58.000Z> hazlin: I figured you would xD
<2022-08-01T09:02:25.000Z> hazlin: it feels like you are up extra early today :D
<2022-08-01T09:08:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no you are :) 
<2022-08-01T09:08:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's 11am here 
<2022-08-01T09:09:43.000Z> hazlin: ahh I suppose you are right
<2022-08-01T09:11:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh and i'll be gone again, leaving tomorrow 
<2022-08-01T09:13:52.000Z> hazlin: another two week quest?
<2022-08-01T09:14:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: 3 weeks i hope that'll be it for a while i didn't actually plan to become a carpenter for real XD 
<2022-08-01T09:15:28.000Z> hazlin: lol! 
<2022-08-01T09:21:27.000Z> hazlin: I used to tell people that I couldn't do computer stuff for a job, because that was my hobby
<2022-08-01T09:21:55.000Z> hazlin: and then one time I had a friend snap at me, and told me to stop making excuses and just do computer stuff xD
<2022-08-01T09:22:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehe :) 
<2022-08-01T09:23:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: "i'm doing this construction work thing only in the mean time, to further my actual goals"is what i'm telling myself and others for 1.5 years now XD
<2022-08-01T09:24:41.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-08-01T12:46:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: https://bae.st/notice/AM5EuszqwbPCwWafkOholy fuck this dude has read my mind - scary 
<2022-08-01T12:49:06.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-08-01T12:49:39.000Z> hazlin: now there is a game you wouldn't want associated with you IRL xD
<2022-08-01T17:18:20.000Z> hazlin: ThatWouldBeTelling feels a bit like an insane person, perhaps a bot or perhaps just someone who is lost in the trees and doesn't know he is in a forest 
<2022-08-01T17:18:41.000Z> hazlin: he commented on something I wrote earlier, and I was just like "this is word salad"
<2022-08-01T17:26:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i don't think he's a bot he makes too much sense i also talked to him in dms - he passed the touring test :) 
<2022-08-01T17:28:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: reminds me a bit of my grandpa old academic fiercely intelligent and a bit unhinged 
<2022-08-01T17:29:02.000Z> hazlin: lol, actually, after I wrote that too you, I did read an excellent message he wrong in a thread... but some of them are still, well they just don't fit witth the thread
<2022-08-01T17:31:05.000Z> hazlin: wrote* in a thread
<2022-08-01T17:31:37.000Z> hazlin: I wonder if I can setup speech to text open source style
<2022-08-01T17:31:45.000Z> hazlin: I would certainly make fewer mistakes 
<2022-08-01T17:32:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i do that myself sometimes i have a lot of thoughts in my headand even though i do have friends that put up good conversations,a lot of it would just not mesh with them / fly over their head so i dump it at the first ill fitting opportunity in some fedi thread 
<2022-08-01T17:34:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: phoneposters only punish themselves XD 
<2022-08-01T17:39:14.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-08-01T17:43:00.000Z> hazlin: nothing wrong with thought dumping
<2022-08-01T17:49:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i know this urge all too well one night at 3am the ruminations became so bad i had to get up and grafitti a poem all over the nearest bus stop it helped XDthat nights sleep was 10/10 
<2022-08-01T17:49:51.000Z> hazlin: LOL
<2022-08-01T17:50:14.000Z> hazlin: more than once, I've gotten up in the middle of the night and made a post on fedi xD
<2022-08-01T17:50:45.000Z> hazlin: what I wanted to say popped into my head, so I just opened a laptop, typed it out, hit send, closed it, back to sleep xD
<2022-08-01T17:50:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: next up: defacing websites XD 
<2022-08-01T18:30:52.000Z> hazlin: I feel like sleep is not far off, so I will wish you fun with the carpentry and techno detox
<2022-08-01T18:31:11.000Z> hazlin: though, that sounds like a good setup to actually read a book in the evening xD
<2022-08-01T18:35:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: have a good one :) 
<2022-08-14T23:08:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sup? 
<2022-08-15T00:06:36.000Z> hazlin: waoh! back a week early?
<2022-08-15T07:57:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah, plans keep changing a lot around here XD 
<2022-08-15T20:47:16.000Z> hazlin: Well, what ever the reason, welcome back :D Among other things I am planning on doing a simple 2d voxel webgl program (and then hopefully a 3d one) here are my notes so far (experimenting with doing them in blender, the colors feel like they add a lot) https://i.poastcdn.org/a31d395a87f5fc09c151b78e692505a1b361058118b2d85830eb235f2746300e.png
<2022-08-15T21:24:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well i can't say i can decypher your image, but i'm curious as to where this leads 
<2022-08-16T06:06:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: keki forgot my mouse at the seawacom only - final destination guess now is a good time as any to practice some sculpting
<2022-08-16T07:15:07.000Z> hazlin: wacom only can be interesting xD
<2022-08-16T07:15:20.000Z> hazlin: the scroll wheel will be missed the most
<2022-08-16T07:16:50.000Z> hazlin: poa.st/@AshChapelsGhost/posts/AMZPPkyfiwCja8zRwm 
<2022-08-16T07:17:09.000Z> hazlin: he updated his avatar, it looks pretty good overall 
<2022-08-16T07:18:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pretty good 
<2022-08-16T17:32:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: todays exploits: ( i used my own mug for reference - it looks nothing like me >_<  )  https://bae.st/media/c32f5ecfd575434b580771c8880cf8b9619c0472405b7b74c1e79a91a3747663.png?name=image.png
<2022-08-16T17:52:28.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-08-16T17:52:39.000Z> hazlin: that looks passable :D
<2022-08-16T17:53:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: XD
<2022-08-16T17:53:29.000Z> hazlin: you've lot all of the major details looking good
<2022-08-16T19:41:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: forgive me, sometimes poast, in its anti science stance is just as cringe as the reddit fedoras were
<2022-08-16T20:53:27.000Z> hazlin: no worries, I enjoyed our discussion. If I thought it would have been an issue, I would have just avoided engaging, because I value you xD however, after retyping my response for a long time, I felt they were sufficiently natural and polite xD
<2022-08-16T20:54:27.000Z> hazlin: It feels like I was trained to argue against a person rather than to explore a topic, but I am trying to fix that
<2022-08-16T20:56:10.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you do argue very well, as in: on topic, well thought out :) 
<2022-08-16T20:57:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i guess we all are trained to argue against a person in the times that raised us 
<2022-08-16T20:57:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: to not do it is like fighting by boxing rules where everyone else kicks bites and goes for the groin 
<2022-08-16T20:58:15.000Z> hazlin: lol true!
<2022-08-16T21:01:56.000Z> hazlin: I'd like to think I am developing a since for when, my response will not provide meaningful progress to a discussion. 
<2022-08-16T21:02:55.000Z> hazlin: That is also the reason why I don't always respond to your contributions to discussions, like when you weighed in on the gun control thread a while back, I thought there may have been some nuance to explore, but couldn't see the path forward to form a message xD
<2022-08-16T21:09:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i aspire to this as welli probably have a longer way to then you XD 
<2022-08-16T21:10:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *to go* 
<2022-08-16T21:11:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i usually shut up when you talk about faith related things for the same reason :zero useful input 
<2022-08-16T21:13:40.000Z> hazlin: Faith is more single most studied thing, I know more about it and related matters than anything else, however, the true at the bottom of that well is, people have to ask God for help to understand God, my words seems to lack the spark of knowing when trying to communicate such things xD
<2022-08-16T21:15:51.000Z> hazlin: I mangled that message a bit, but hopefully the meaning was communicated 
<2022-08-16T21:17:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you mean if you understood god well enough your words would set people on fire, just like that 
<2022-08-16T21:20:21.000Z> hazlin: lmao! I meant that, Jesus has to teach people about himself, and He will for anyone that asks Him for such help xDThe big problem that faces Christianity right now, is no one bothers asking Jesus to teach them, they get so focused on learning from a preacher or from the Bible, they don't even realize they are spinning their wheels. And the teachers are quite responsible for this mess, they want people dependent on them, that is how their church continues to exist
<2022-08-16T21:20:59.000Z> hazlin: the bottom truth for Faith is that, Jesus has to teach you, and no person or book can make up for that
<2022-08-16T21:24:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that sounds a lot like meditation 
<2022-08-16T21:24:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( because someone told me recently, i should try buddhism ) 
<2022-08-16T21:28:46.000Z> hazlin: Meditation on scripture is often recommended to Christians, I've never found that useful. For me, it has always been, I ask Jesus about something, and then sometime later the answer pops into my head, often while doing something unrelated xD The big one for me was when I realized I couldn't bring my self to trust Jesus to do good for me, or to do things I know he said He'd do in the Bible. Literally 100% of the teaching I'd received said, I had to choose to trust Him, and that by meditating on the word I could have peace about relying upon Him... But, it just wasn't true for me, I really tried, but there was no peace in my heart
<2022-08-16T21:29:18.000Z> hazlin: then I decided to ask him to help me trust in him, and have peace about relying upon him, and it slowly happened over a few months, without me trying at all
<2022-08-16T21:33:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what's it like when god answers?
<2022-08-16T21:38:13.000Z> hazlin: Usually a seemless whole thought, like, I just understand what I should do if I was asking him for direction, or other times, I've been trying to learn something, and I can suddenly see how things connect together. Other times, I find myself saying something that I didn't know was true until I said it xDSeveral people in my family have had visions about things long before they happened. Though those have mostly been about children not yet born, or about a relative who is going to die soon, even though there is no indication of health issues. Personally I don't believe I've had one of those.
<2022-08-16T21:39:12.000Z> hazlin: Another way God has talked to me, is that strangers in different places and at different times in my life have all said a very specific phrase to me xD I thought it was just something people said to children when I was growing up, but discovered no one else was having this experience xD
<2022-08-16T21:40:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the strangers thing is pretty rad 
<2022-08-16T21:42:11.000Z> hazlin: yes it is very sci-fi lol But, in general, I'd say hearing for God is most often, you realize you know the truth of a matter, and it often brings peace and hope, you feel better about proceeding (even if you are proceeding way from something you were inquiring about xD)
<2022-08-16T21:45:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so the thought materializes and you *know* it's from god?because you asked, or because it somehow feels different from your own thoughts?
<2022-08-16T21:47:44.000Z> hazlin: No, it feels just like your thoughts, you just know, it is really only by, continuing to involve Jesus in your problems that you can clearly see these results are from an external force (and usually the changes in situations are so seamless they are easy to explain away)
<2022-08-16T21:55:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i talked to a jehovas witness for some monthshe said to just give in to the idea that you are always in the presence of something i think i managed to do it right once or twice, it felt good, but really strange and i noped out pretty fast 
<2022-08-16T21:55:39.000Z> hazlin: I've also had extensive deals with two people, that I am convinced they have a relationship with a demon. They say things or ask questions, that revolve around information they haven't been exposed to, and the result is always strife and anger in them and the people around them. It was easy to think they were just being contentious at first, overtime I noticed that they really didn't know about situations they were engaging with, I've talked to other people that know them and this seem to be generally true for how they operate. 
<2022-08-16T21:57:01.000Z> hazlin: I'm not even sure they realize they are receiving prompting on a spiritual basis, they keep destroying their relationships, and honestly, I have to deliberately not answer the questions they ask about things they shouldn't know I am looking into, to keep things smooth xD
<2022-08-16T21:58:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how do you run across all this spooky stuff, and i get none no fair 
<2022-08-16T22:01:55.000Z> hazlin: the two people I mentioned, one of them made Free-Mason oaths to the "chief commander", and the other was involved in exorcisms for many years as a teenager. It seems to have left them both scared spiritually. There were two others that dabbled in fortunetelling, and seemed more than a little cursed the rest of their lives, but I didn't know one of them first hand (died while I was very young)
<2022-08-16T22:02:29.000Z> hazlin: you are probably avoiding a lot of stuff by not participating xD
<2022-08-16T22:11:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm not even aware of its existence 
<2022-08-16T22:14:40.000Z> hazlin: I wrote a well balanced summary of my information on eastern meditation, that disappeared when I lost connection, xD I will now try to recreate it
<2022-08-16T22:15:38.000Z> hazlin: The information on my part is a bit sparse. First that Mindfullness as simply, staying in the resent and on topic may be harmless.
<2022-08-16T22:17:15.000Z> hazlin: That extended meditation on breathing, is used to erode your since of self, but practitioners that achieve a loss of self realize it is a serious medical condition, and have to under go therapy to escape having bouts of paralyzing loss of self.
<2022-08-16T22:19:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: never heard of "paralyzing loss of self" 
<2022-08-16T22:19:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sounds pretty hard core 
<2022-08-16T22:20:40.000Z> hazlin: The third kind is what I'll lump together as "accepting" meditation, you are either encouraged to accept your "forgotten traumas" or "the good and bad inside you" or even something external, a spirit, or something unspecified. I onced watched a shinto ritual where the initiate was taken to a mountain where the spirits of the dead where said to dwell, and they kept making him say "I am okay with this, I accept this", I am was like "WHAT, What is he accepting exactly?! what he is approving" xD, to me this third kind is the most dangerous and is very similar to the practical mechanics of Satanism.
<2022-08-16T22:20:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i asked clinic depressives what its like, they said"i feel absolutely nothing""and it's terrifying"( several people said the same thing) 
<2022-08-16T22:22:03.000Z> hazlin: There are outreaches for people suffering from meditation damage like acute loss of self. The one I know about is cheetahhouse.org/symptoms I assume there are others.
<2022-08-16T22:24:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: horizon = broadened 
<2022-08-16T22:27:45.000Z> hazlin: From my theological world view, lots of Christians come to recognize, that there is a sort of bad force, even inside of us, that pushes us to do bad, makes bad suggestions, etc, and it is often describe as, we end up at war with this part, as we are able to more clearly see what is good for us, and for others, it brings us into conflict with these suggestion (though, not following through on those suggestions is a completely different discussion xD).And when I look at the accepting for of meditation, I go "Oh wow, it looks like they are couching people to cooperate with the tainted part of men in this fallen world, or even with something external like a demon"
<2022-08-16T22:30:02.000Z> hazlin: that should have been "the accepting form"
<2022-08-16T22:30:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's what you mean with "practical mechanics of satanism"? 
<2022-08-16T22:33:03.000Z> hazlin: sort of, Satanism is special, because usually people know explicitly what they are making an oath or contract with Satan or a demon. I just recognize that, other religions, some times get very close, like this cooperating with the spirits, or giving their approval for "something". It is much more vague, and therefor probably does not carry the same sort of intensity as direct satanism.
<2022-08-16T22:38:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: see, i was just about to tell you that i probably did something like the accepting method myself, and then you start talking about a vector demonic influence XD 
<2022-08-16T22:42:32.000Z> hazlin: lol, well, in a lot of ways, this world is just a place of choice for us, we either choose the humility of relying on Jesus, or the pride of relying on ourselves (even satanism is all about what YOU are doing for Satan xD).There is no wound or bondage too great for Jesus to remove, so it some ways it doesn't matter what came before when you start relying on Jesus. 
<2022-08-16T22:44:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so outside of continuing to hate myself there is only the option between jesus and demons?
<2022-08-16T22:44:26.000Z> hazlin: And, I hope you all my friends to choose Jesus, but, you all just aren't my responsibility xD God really likes the whole free will thing, and gently attracting people with His goodness, so I've got to let him do his thing you you xD
<2022-08-16T22:46:01.000Z> hazlin: more or less, to a certain extent we were sold into slavery to satan by Adam, and with satan to hell we will go unless we rely on Jesus for freedom 
<2022-08-16T22:47:41.000Z> hazlin: Most of the time, people just have Jesus so misrepresented to them, they reject Jesus without ever having known him. And, I think this is largely due to churches trying to gain control over you, to make you a good resource as part of their congregation 
<2022-08-16T22:50:34.000Z> hazlin: and, personally, I am not impressed with myself, I came to realize I was a bad person, and I need Jesus to pick up a lot of slack in my life, to cover for my bad decisions xD And, he does good to me, not because I deserve it, but because I asked for his help, and he is that kind of wonderful person that selflessly helps otthers
<2022-08-16T22:50:44.000Z> hazlin: because, so far, he certainly hasn't gotten anything out of me xD
<2022-08-16T22:51:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: lol :) 
<2022-08-16T22:51:54.000Z> hazlin: I meant, hasn't gotten anything from me in return, except for eventually some gratitude, but I didn't even have that for a long time 
<2022-08-17T20:22:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hi :) 
<2022-08-17T22:05:38.000Z> hazlin: hihi
<2022-08-17T22:14:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: my garden has a mushroom that glows in the dark 
<2022-08-17T22:20:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i didn't even know these things existed i always thought that was an invention of jrpgs 
<2022-08-17T22:58:45.000Z> hazlin: lolhere when we had overcast skies for 2 weeksmushrooms sprouted all over in the yard xD
<2022-08-18T09:00:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a ton of tweaking later ... the eyes are still way too big  https://bae.st/media/e7c569f6ed71b703fe8e9cef0fa5075ef25d06bfd512acdadab0c46cdf6a05b0.png?name=grafik.png
<2022-08-18T18:55:30.000Z> hazlin: it sort of reminds me on the fake men in XCOM2
<2022-08-18T18:58:13.000Z> hazlin: those have small eyes, nvm xD
<2022-08-19T22:58:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i graduated to a new type of alien ^______^ https://bae.st/media/b2a103a59700ab3f17960d2e945b2531109c463f9d042038eae08b8121f879b9.png?name=image.png
<2022-08-19T22:58:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: how are you doing 
<2022-08-19T22:58:48.000Z> hazlin: :D
<2022-08-19T22:58:51.000Z> hazlin: i am doing good
<2022-08-19T22:59:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: noice 
<2022-08-19T22:59:24.000Z> hazlin: I've been blendering my shortstackranch avatar shortstackran.ch/hazlin
<2022-08-19T23:00:04.000Z> hazlin: I used their instance icon, changed the colors and added a NERV logo https://i.poastcdn.org/85fabe286109427349cbab9c0b58b4d50931b6435912e5fd0521a761895046c5.png
<2022-08-19T23:00:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm sorry all this "outside of jesus there is only damnation" stuff kinda scared me - i didn't know what to make of it 
<2022-08-19T23:00:46.000Z> hazlin: I wanted it to look like it was on the fabric so I've been modeling the breasts in blender, and adjusting the texture xD https://i.poastcdn.org/8277ccf3c423b3c884da30c0f04a4e1e8c52a28c4363272c6a1716e7c9cf8b1b.png
<2022-08-19T23:01:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's pretty good 
<2022-08-19T23:02:30.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: *switches off maximum hatecore black metal* 
<2022-08-19T23:04:31.000Z> hazlin: no worry about the faith stuff, the whole hell fire and damination stuff terrorized me as a kid xD That is mainly the result of shitty teaching, the reality is more up beat, Jesus says, any who ask me, I will save, and no one and nothing will ever be able to strip them out of my hand. 
<2022-08-19T23:05:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so you're a fellow short stack appreciator, i take it? 
<2022-08-19T23:05:19.000Z> hazlin: when you ask Him to help you and to save you, nothing will be able to break that contract with Him
<2022-08-19T23:05:51.000Z> hazlin: I am, I think I may also make a bae.st account, but I've been really enjoying the people at shortstack so I wanted to make an account there :D
<2022-08-19T23:07:12.000Z> hazlin: and, the peace and reassurance, doesn't come from your force of will, but you ask for that as well xD
<2022-08-19T23:07:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i had a gfwho was basically the platonic form of shortstack 
<2022-08-19T23:08:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and also hellhound unfortunately 
<2022-08-19T23:09:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i still have pornographic dreams about her but she was also terminally insane and impossible  to live with 
<2022-08-19T23:09:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-08-19T23:11:39.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2022-08-19T23:12:12.000Z> hazlin: if also beauty on the outside always matched beauty on the inside xD
<2022-08-19T23:12:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no shit - i've seen my fair share of porn and then some - her tits are still superior 
<2022-08-19T23:12:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-08-19T23:14:04.000Z> hazlin: :D
<2022-08-19T23:14:27.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the irony is : i could have lived with all of her flaws - for i had plenty myself what was unberable was her fear of being left for someone else 
<2022-08-19T23:14:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i never oogled an other girl while i was with her 
<2022-08-19T23:15:08.000Z> hazlin: oof, low self esteem is a hard hurdle to overcome 
<2022-08-19T23:15:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but her constant paranoia was too much for me - i had to dump her 
<2022-08-19T23:18:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a friend of mine met her, and told me she's tatooed all over these days a tormented soul for sure that's probably why we liked each other so much 
<2022-08-19T23:20:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she told me, her first bf was someone who knew he was going to die ( maleformed heart, birth defect, and he was already past the time the doctors predicted he was going to have ) 
<2022-08-19T23:27:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fucking windows :) these messages won't stop they come in one second intervalsthere is no usb stuff connected that hasn't been connected to this box for moths wtf? https://bae.st/media/3429c20421029b43dd76c243cf3ce44e1363209695149a0681bccdb5acff159f.png?name=image.png
<2022-08-19T23:33:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: reboot :) fixes almost everything you still there?if not that's no problem, i probably swamp you, i'm drunk ...... i don't notice these things 
<2022-08-19T23:36:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so, anyway i will completely unashamedly continue to swamp you since you are free to simply not read it if you so please 
<2022-08-19T23:37:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hehe :) 
<2022-08-19T23:37:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i have a funny story to the drawings of anika 
<2022-08-19T23:42:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i knew her before, she usually sits in that drawing circle as one of the drawers and easily drew sympathies for her gentle nature and the fact that she used to show up in a dirndl ( like, full cospllay mode - i'm not kidding - she must have walked through half the city in that outfit to get there and somehow managed to not give a shit somehow - major respect ) 
<2022-08-19T23:46:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: when she wasn't in a dirndl she had the kind of cloths of girls that are gifted with great sense of aesthetics but also are waaaay too fat, and use that sense to appear pleasant 
<2022-08-19T23:47:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i don't mind chubby 
<2022-08-19T23:47:17.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: in fact i kinda like it 
<2022-08-19T23:47:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: kinda a lot :) 
<2022-08-19T23:48:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so .... :) 
<2022-08-19T23:49:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i see in the drawing circle telegram group that she's going to be there, so i naturally have to go 
<2022-08-19T23:51:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i show up and the orga dude says something about the model for today has been tested for positive for covid but luckily he has found a replacement 
<2022-08-19T23:54:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i stand next to "mrs big titty goth gf" who suddenly is in sportsbra and hotpants and much more shapely then i would have expected and think nothing 
<2022-08-19T23:54:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and then it dawns on me 
<2022-08-19T23:54:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: no SHIT, it can't be her
<2022-08-19T23:55:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: NOOOOO!
<2022-08-19T23:55:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i still want to hit on her 
<2022-08-19T23:55:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i want do it nerdyly and talk to her about anime and stufff !!!! 
<2022-08-19T23:56:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: this doesn'
<2022-08-19T23:56:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: t
<2022-08-19T23:56:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: fucking fly if i
<2022-08-19T23:56:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: 've already seen her naked 
<2022-08-19T23:56:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's all wierd and shit 
<2022-08-19T23:57:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<2022-08-19T23:57:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: also she's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay tooo hot 
<2022-08-19T23:57:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she's either already taken or a total psycho :) 
<2022-08-19T23:58:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: bonus lulz : 
<2022-08-19T23:59:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that evening i was drunk an sent her "out of touch thursday" 
<2022-08-19T23:59:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she blocked me ^____________________^ 
<2022-08-20T00:00:32.000Z> hazlin: reading...
<2022-08-20T00:03:42.000Z> hazlin: lol!
<2022-08-20T00:04:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: as long as my exploits serve for comedy :) 
<2022-08-20T00:05:41.000Z> hazlin: blocked over out of touch Thursday, I guess it wasn't meant to be xD
<2022-08-20T00:06:05.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: guess you are right :) 
<2022-08-20T00:10:06.000Z> hazlin: I don't have any funny dating stores to share, unless you count flying a thousand miles to discover someone is 300 lbs 
<2022-08-20T00:11:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a) there was no dating in any of my stories b) that's funny if you tell it right 
<2022-08-20T00:12:32.000Z> hazlin: incipient* dating
<2022-08-20T00:16:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( to mrs hellhoud-perfect-tits-loss-trauma-psycho : i was at a party with her and totally drunk and she was too and that was roughly the third party at which we were at that state and then her BFF took me aside and said "just kiss her allready you fucking idiot" and then i did i would not be have been able to get over my spergery otherwise ) 
<2022-08-20T00:19:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's all just dumb luck
<2022-08-20T00:20:05.000Z> hazlin: it does feel that way doesn't it xD
<2022-08-20T00:20:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and keep trying to give luck a chance 
<2022-08-20T00:20:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-08-20T00:23:05.000Z> hazlin: I had a spergy date once, where the lady kept saying things that were wrong, about historical people, or even simple head math, and I pointed it out once or twice, and she was like "look, no one every tells me that I am wrong about something!"
<2022-08-20T00:23:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and then?
<2022-08-20T00:24:33.000Z> hazlin: and then she got destroyed at bowling, and decided it would be better to spend her weekend getting drunk on the beach instead of hanging out with me, so it didn't work out xD
<2022-08-20T00:25:16.000Z> hazlin: but it was very surprising that people would never correct her, it was strange enough that it pops into my head every once in a while 
<2022-08-20T00:26:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm
<2022-08-20T00:27:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: was she particularly hot? ( as in the kind that no man wants to contratict because he want's to score? ) 
<2022-08-20T00:29:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: like in general, don't sweat it i was totally convinced is was going to die a virgin until my late 20s
<2022-08-20T00:29:38.000Z> hazlin: uhh some people I knew thought she was, but I'd say like average for 30 years ago (way above average today xD), Naa, it was that she was a lawyer and worked at the local court as an assistant to the judge.   
<2022-08-20T00:29:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and then shit just happened 
<2022-08-20T00:32:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sounds like you should have shown up in a BMW and then you could have contradicted her all day long :) \
<2022-08-20T00:33:44.000Z> hazlin: LOL
<2022-08-20T00:34:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: rule 1 : don't take bitches too seriusly 
<2022-08-20T00:36:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and ... apparantly "the mystery method" is not on z-lib 
<2022-08-20T00:36:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that shit really worked
<2022-08-20T00:37:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's sorta disgusting 
<2022-08-20T00:37:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but that on gf i had that i regret leaving i got it like this 
<2022-08-20T00:38:37.000Z> hazlin: interesting 
<2022-08-20T00:38:51.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pua shit 
<2022-08-20T00:39:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm not proud of having resorted to it 
<2022-08-20T00:39:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ... but it did work 
<2022-08-20T00:39:39.000Z> hazlin: this? https://i.poastcdn.org/ba72147840f9bafd52327986e52d88e894a5aaa2a0cffa687e17a5fd4e6b04bf.png
<2022-08-20T00:40:20.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yup, that's it 
<2022-08-20T00:42:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: inb4, i mean i got with several severly insane woman but the least insane was the one i got by applying this book 
<2022-08-20T00:43:02.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2022-08-20T00:44:29.000Z> hazlin: Oh I do have a story, but I only texted the lady, because shit went bad fast lol
<2022-08-20T00:45:40.000Z> hazlin: So, I reach at to this girl on one of those dating websites, and start talking to her, it goes well enough that we start texting over a day or 2, but she kept including pictures were her sister was present
<2022-08-20T00:45:45.000Z> hazlin: and I kept ignoring that
<2022-08-20T00:46:07.000Z> hazlin: until finally, she says "it has been hard taking care of my sister she has autism"
<2022-08-20T00:46:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it teaches you how to pretend to be someone you are not ( and how to interpret signals of grils ) the first part is the one that disgusted me, and i would rather spend my energy on becoming someone who is convinced he is right in the world then merely how to fake it but it does work :) 
<2022-08-20T00:46:27.000Z> hazlin: and I say, "oh, I wouldn't have guessed, she seemed pretty normal in the pictures"
<2022-08-20T00:47:08.000Z> hazlin: and that was it, there was no going back, a storm a messages to follow
<2022-08-20T00:48:29.000Z> hazlin: I have to think back, to when I was a kid to a time where someone was so mad at me, and coming at me xD To paraphrase her issue, it was that, people like me characterize mentality ill people as looking different, and I was part of what was wrong with the world
<2022-08-20T00:48:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: like "normal" was a trigger?
<2022-08-20T00:49:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: omg :) 
<2022-08-20T00:49:10.000Z> hazlin: I just barely managed to not reply with "it appears that your sister isn't the only one in your family with mental illness" 
<2022-08-20T00:49:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hahahhah 
<2022-08-20T00:50:30.000Z> hazlin: yes, I think normal was the trigger, or perhaps anything about her sister would have been enough, and it was a shame too, cause she was really pretty xD
<2022-08-20T00:50:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( i genuinely laughed audibly,, but there is no shorthand for that :) ) 
<2022-08-20T00:51:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hmm 
<2022-08-20T00:51:39.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2022-08-20T00:52:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well pretty girls don't have to face the realities everyone else does 
<2022-08-20T00:54:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's too easy for them to drift into weird places, no tells them NOyou are being retarded right now 
<2022-08-20T00:55:03.000Z> hazlin: I would classify anyone that gets too much positive attention like that, they become unreachable, like they are addicted to being agreed with or something
<2022-08-20T00:56:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i was in a flat as a student and we were searching for a new roommate and this one applicant was a really pretty petite girl all the others were infatuated with her and so was i but something in me said no, there has to be a catch someone as pretty as her and as nice ... 
<2022-08-20T00:56:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah 
<2022-08-20T00:59:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but i was wrong she was real easy to live withlike, easier then most ugly girls i still have a soft spot in my heart for her we met her father he showed up at one of our house parties we got to know how her mother suicided and then one day she was just gone 
<2022-08-20T00:59:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: like for weeks, cellphone turned off and all that 
<2022-08-20T01:01:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and we had no idea what to doall her stuff was still in her roomshould we search for a new flatmate? ( nobody thought something happend to her, we knew her well enoug already to not expect anything but her running off ) 
<2022-08-20T01:02:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: eventually an sms with "if you don't answer we have no choice but to throw away all your stuff" did the trick 
<2022-08-20T01:02:51.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and she moved 
<2022-08-20T01:02:56.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: out 
<2022-08-20T01:03:06.000Z> hazlin: wow, how strange!
<2022-08-20T01:03:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she just met a dude who lived in some village and moved in with him 
<2022-08-20T01:04:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she had a job as a preschool teacher and everything - they also had no idea where she suddenly dissabpeared to 
<2022-08-20T01:06:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she was a scarred person i've never seen her be mean to anyone but she also did wierd shit >_< 
<2022-08-20T01:16:08.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm a fucked up guy who just keeps stubeling into stuff like this and then i met this wierd hardocore christian dude online who happened to be into blender and ... :) 
<2022-08-20T02:31:18.000Z> hazlin: lol, I am glad! You've become my friend and it is wonderful, I hope you have a good nights sleep xD
<2022-08-20T07:15:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: likewise, i'm glad to have met you :) 
<2022-08-20T07:16:04.000Z> hazlin: :D
<2022-08-20T08:11:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i was just about to write an eulogy for my space mouse "and we didn't even knew the little fella for long" it still works, but it grilled the entire port it was on
<2022-08-20T08:13:30.000Z> hazlin: oh, is that what was giving the USB warning?
<2022-08-20T08:25:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah that must have been it 
<2022-08-20T08:25:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i love this thing - it's amazing for sculpting 
<2022-08-20T08:31:11.000Z> hazlin: oh, why so? is it different than a regular mouse?
<2022-08-20T08:40:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah it's a six axis analog joystick
<2022-08-20T08:41:05.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: every rotation and zoom that's possible in euclidian space all at once in your wrist
<2022-08-20T08:42:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's just a ton of fun to uselike playing a cool helicopter video game 
<2022-08-20T08:50:25.000Z> hazlin: ooo
<2022-08-20T08:52:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah pan too , i forgot when you get the hang of it you do combinations of all three at once  with a single touch 
<2022-08-22T08:51:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there is this one observation that doesn't leave me alone and i need to share with someoneon the last two weekends there were two partiesboth had the same thing happen all my old friends gang up on me and want to convince me that i need to go back into the machine but the thing i'm doing nownot even seeking employment in my profession and just doing odd jobs with manual labor i have been doing for almost 3 years now and now i also feel much better than ever, possibly in my whole life so why do they feel the need to do this now, and didn't last year?everyone of us has been told there is only one way and everyone must go it and yes, it sucks sometimes but there is really no alternativei think they subconsciously fear i might be right and if i wasthey too, risk not finding the strength anymore to down that path they were told they had to take 
<2022-08-22T09:02:45.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: or maybe a less self serving interpretation: if you see somenone with no real job and very little money who also looks depressed that's normal and expected if the same guy is peak shape and appears very happy, there must be something wrong 
<2023-02-07T19:11:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: apropos AI the cycles denoinsing does really cool artefacts if you set the samples really low, like 10-ish 
<2023-02-07T19:12:10.000Z> hazlin: :O
<2023-02-07T19:12:16.000Z> hazlin: I'll have to give it a try :D
<2023-02-07T19:12:31.000Z> hazlin: Also, hello :D Good to hear from you!
<2023-02-07T19:14:10.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i'm tots gonna use this for smth ( have been modeling like mad lately, 10h a day, having a resin printer does that to you ) 
<2023-02-07T19:14:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hi - you have no luck with instances do you ? 
<2023-02-07T19:15:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: calling it now : within a year you will set up your own instance 
<2023-02-07T19:16:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ( i'm at the art school and the batteries of my laptop are going to give up soon, if i stop responding, that's why ) 
<2023-02-07T19:20:12.000Z> hazlin: roger roger
<2023-02-07T19:20:54.000Z> hazlin: >set up your own instance I was thinking that as well, I do see that those single user instance usually crap out a lot
<2023-02-07T19:21:20.000Z> hazlin: was hoping revolver or teknomunk's solution would become available xD
<2023-02-07T19:22:02.000Z> hazlin: >have been modeling like mad lately, 10h a dayNICE
<2023-02-07T19:22:13.000Z> hazlin: >resin printerAlso nice xD
<2023-02-07T20:01:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: cu :) 
<2023-02-14T11:33:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: SEO ...  https://bae.st/media/5fae9812637fcadc5c6f36d0440b4cc11d36d3f64c9aa6606cc6e859434cc593.png?name=image.png
<2023-02-14T13:50:58.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2023-02-20T22:45:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sup 
<2023-02-21T13:32:56.000Z> hazlin: hihi
<2023-02-21T13:33:20.000Z> hazlin: I've been making doodles for that game I want to make
<2023-02-21T13:33:35.000Z> hazlin: it occurred to me, that I should just start with primary shapes
<2023-02-21T13:33:50.000Z> hazlin: same the detail for later
<2023-02-23T17:47:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: sorry i still didn't finish your crest that printer sent me in a nerd frenzy - i think i have problems controlling passions 
<2023-02-23T21:04:34.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2023-02-23T21:04:53.000Z> hazlin: better to have out of control passions than, dead dreamless eyes xD
<2023-03-17T19:29:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: long time no see 
<2023-03-17T19:30:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what's up my man? 
<2023-03-17T22:10:14.000Z> hazlin: hihi
<2023-03-17T22:10:34.000Z> hazlin: Recently been doing lots of AI photo bashing
<2023-03-17T22:17:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: cool 
<2023-03-17T22:18:10.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i started to get into drum computers 
<2023-03-17T22:19:24.000Z> hazlin: A diagram of one of today's adventures https://i.poastcdn.org/a5f6520ebafa07454804ffe1f6e91d7e728510d9ef1a47b3f0d372322ada5745.jpg
<2023-03-17T22:20:04.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: noice 
<2023-03-17T22:20:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what does manual edit mean?
<2023-03-17T23:07:44.000Z> hazlin: that means I dragged the files into krita
<2023-03-17T23:08:00.000Z> hazlin: and quickly cut them stuck them together
<2023-03-17T23:08:13.000Z> hazlin: if there was an AI just for combining things, or stripping backgrounds, that would be amazing xD
<2023-03-17T23:10:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so only the first part is ai 
<2023-03-17T23:12:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i want to make a video in blender that has the jam cat in it, but after seeing your exploits i didn't even try, and googled "gif to mp4" :) 
<2023-03-17T23:13:25.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2023-03-17T23:13:37.000Z> hazlin: The first back, and the last part is AI
<2023-03-17T23:15:39.000Z> hazlin: It is also possible to use in combination with blender  https://i.poastcdn.org/fa1c8d23cb7c5ab12c766e118577c14dd7425990691dca74da94cf3f12fe1bb5.jpg
<2023-03-17T23:16:14.000Z> hazlin attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/762d1565ea2bad67f3493d75e26a339b22cc1ecdb7cf3a4d05d07cbe6142f4ea.jpg
<2023-03-17T23:16:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you give an image  hint and a textual hint to the ai? 
<2023-03-17T23:21:28.000Z> hazlin: yes
<2023-03-17T23:22:56.000Z> hazlin: Also at a certain level of complexity, your best bet, is to generate each element individually, and edit them together. If you try to do an AI pass on something too complete then it will get worse.
<2023-03-17T23:24:10.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i see 
<2023-03-17T23:24:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i love how you keep trying everything 
<2023-03-17T23:25:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: would you be interested into digging into vulkan together 
<2023-03-17T23:25:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ?
<2023-03-17T23:29:58.000Z> hazlin: For example, using a strong image influence on the Left, did not transform the image enough to hide my sloppy edits.But, even a medium influence wasn't enough to keep the faces from getting messed up. https://i.poastcdn.org/e5199086d18cbed55714778674bc5ee08fc1739e15b035d104b97c89bf713797.jpg
<2023-03-17T23:33:27.000Z> hazlin: >digging into vulkan togetherWhat are you trying to do?
<2023-03-17T23:39:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: learn vulkan 
<2023-03-17T23:39:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: because it's cool 
<2023-03-17T23:43:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i looked at the documentation, which is really well made, and my graphics prog knowledge is totally outdated
<2023-03-17T23:44:59.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and ... it looks fun :)
<2023-03-17T23:46:20.000Z> hazlin: it is interesting, though I am not looking at 3d at the moment, I got started working on a 2d game, I've been working out how to export armatures with sprites from blender and play them in pygame xD
<2023-03-17T23:47:29.000Z> hazlin: I'd been doing the AI stuff this last week, cuz I just didn't feel up doing working on it D: 
<2023-03-17T23:47:59.000Z> hazlin: All that is to say, I can't commit to dropping a lot of time into vulkan, which sounds like it would require a lot of mental energy
<2023-03-17T23:50:03.000Z> hazlin: BUT, I would like to be in the loop as much as possible
<2023-03-17T23:50:28.000Z> hazlin: I am always interested in what you are doing friend :D
<2023-03-17T23:51:52.000Z> hazlin: (recent noodling about) someone said "Tomboy with turrets" so I tried to bring it to life  https://i.poastcdn.org/202dd785d6a3e11f11fbff55d9cbb95a6c7c1a2c6008dff63da74b25a608873d.m4v
<2023-03-17T23:52:53.000Z> hazlin: (recent noodling about) the first of my doodles for game sprites I recreated in blender https://i.poastcdn.org/6a566fa05e4a35d5a7f2c104f11bdbf561522ae7643287405466f73cd3b964ad.m4v
<2023-03-17T23:54:17.000Z> hazlin: (recent noodling about) Someone posted a sprite sheet, and I proceeded to bring it make it WASD controllable in pygames, took about 2 hours. https://i.poastcdn.org/88199459f0cb9c15f7e4c313e9b122f2e3569f0d4cfb0762a48531bde84463f0.m4v
<2023-03-18T00:12:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh sry i talked to my buddy
<2023-03-18T00:15:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > o bring it make it WASD controllable in pygames, took about 2 hours.
<2023-03-18T00:15:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: cool 
<2023-03-18T00:18:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the tomboy with tourettes is funny 
<2023-03-18T00:18:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: may i post it?
<2023-03-18T00:18:56.000Z> hazlin: oh sure, I think my original post of it got zero interactions xD (people were not a fan for some reason)
<2023-03-18T00:21:37.000Z> hazlin: I was originally doing it to get AI results
<2023-03-18T00:21:52.000Z> hazlin: I linked you to the original post
<2023-03-18T00:22:02.000Z> hazlin: in case you wanted to see more about it
<2023-03-18T00:23:00.000Z> hazlin: since I couldn't get the renders I wanted, I ended up just learning lots about the particle system
<2023-03-18T00:26:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > just learning lots about the particle system
<2023-03-18T00:27:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: not a bad outcome
<2023-03-18T00:27:19.000Z> hazlin: agreed
<2023-03-18T00:28:17.000Z> hazlin: good hearing from you, I'm going to get some food, replies will be delayed. ttyl
<2023-03-18T00:35:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: same, or worse, i have to go, if i stay much longer i'll fall asleep in my buddies carpet
<2023-03-21T17:46:40.000Z> hazlin: i c u :D
<2023-03-21T17:48:14.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i got increasingly intoxicated during our conversation - i have to read it again :) 
<2023-03-21T17:48:25.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2023-03-21T18:24:54.000Z> hazlin: Idle animations https://i.poastcdn.org/ab856ed203214aedaf4cd73d8c41d459b3493aa0ca1646d3dc95390e956146df.m4v
<2023-03-22T17:30:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: noice 
<2023-03-26T07:03:38.000Z> hazlin: I see godot game engine released version 4.0, kinda exited to try it out.
<2023-03-26T07:03:54.000Z> hazlin: but going to try and focus on building out the rest of my doodles as rigged characters in blender xD
<2023-03-27T15:40:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i was trying to build a little amp for my drumcomputer it sounds absolutely horrendous :) but i've itching for an excuse to buy an old oscilloscope for years now, so ....  
<2023-03-27T15:43:32.000Z> hazlin: nice :D
<2023-03-27T15:52:11.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: good on you for finishing your old projects before you start new ones 
<2023-03-27T15:52:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: that's something i could never do 
<2023-03-27T15:54:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the games workshop figure i was copying is almost done, and i have zero motivation to go the last 5 yards 
<2023-03-27T16:41:57.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2023-03-27T16:42:17.000Z> hazlin: I hear you
<2023-03-27T16:47:19.000Z> hazlin: it is like, the baggage of all the ideas has to be discarded or you wont return
<2023-03-27T16:47:57.000Z> hazlin: that is why starting from scratch or starting a new idea is so easy
<2023-03-27T16:50:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah sometimes it's actually good to drop a thing for a few months and start with a fresh head 
<2023-04-04T19:29:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hey :) 
<2023-04-04T19:29:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: are you on? 
<2023-04-04T19:35:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i think i met the irl equivalent of makima and her enthralled retinue 
<2023-04-04T19:35:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i've never seen anything like it 
<2023-04-04T19:36:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she has like an army of freaks around her that follow her every command 
<2023-04-04T19:36:32.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and these people party like there is no tomorrow 
<2023-04-04T19:37:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: they use adderall as a party drug or, at least that's what they said when they gave me one i spent the next 3 days mostly sleeping 
<2023-04-04T19:38:10.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she's not even pretty but utterly hypnotizing 
<2023-04-04T19:38:31.000Z> hazlin: did you join a vampire's coven xD ?
<2023-04-04T19:39:56.000Z> hazlin: reminds me of the opening from Underworld
<2023-04-04T19:41:36.000Z> hazlin: I'll be afk, will respond when I am able...
<2023-04-04T19:50:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it seems kinda like it 
<2023-04-04T19:50:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the whole situation is utterly surreal 
<2023-04-04T19:51:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a few months ago i was walking home from a party and this girl suddenly stuck to me 
<2023-04-04T19:52:48.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: she was talking about something like "are you going to be my new best friend?" and drunken me is like "you seem cool, why not?" 
<2023-04-04T19:55:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: these people are so strange, i'm 100% percent certain i don't want to get sucked into whatever it is they are doing, but the morbid curiosity is overwhelming ( and the urge to bone this chick :))))) 
<2023-04-04T21:38:58.000Z> hazlin: lol
<2023-04-04T21:44:27.000Z> hazlin: Well, be safe friend
<2023-04-05T16:31:43.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: well i'm invited for communal cooking this evening ( because it's full moon - wtf? ) if i don't keep these lovecraftian investigation jurnals updatedi'm dead and you need to avenge me 
<2023-04-05T16:46:00.000Z> hazlin: lol!
<2023-04-05T16:47:43.000Z> hazlin: I hope they find you delicious xD
<2023-04-05T16:49:52.000Z> hazlin: Though, they probably wont eat you, these things are usually about willing partakers in w/e it is they are about
<2023-04-05T16:56:14.000Z> hazlin: On a less creepy note xD 
<2023-04-05T16:56:35.000Z> hazlin: I've been to talk with some people about making a game this weekend
<2023-04-05T16:58:08.000Z> hazlin: I already mentioned to them that they would need a 3d artist for characters and animations, but, I want to put together some place holders in a demo
<2023-04-05T16:59:16.000Z> hazlin: Attempt 1 was a 1k poly basemesh person, with an auto-rig-pro armature 
<2023-04-05T17:00:01.000Z> hazlin: and it doesn't look great xD
<2023-04-05T17:00:30.000Z> hazlin: scratch that, it looks so bad, I am planning on redoing my character place holder
<2023-04-05T17:01:40.000Z> hazlin: I am tempted to chop the model up into, head, torso, hands, feet, and just animate that, way fewer bones, no IK to fiddle with
<2023-04-05T17:56:35.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: yeah rigging is quite the rabbit hole :) 
<2023-04-05T17:59:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i've been checking out meshroom to maybe get the rough sculpt from trad media 
<2023-04-05T17:59:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pleasant proportions seem to be much easier to do in meat space 
<2023-04-05T18:00:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so far i got zero meshes out of it :) 
<2023-04-05T18:01:35.000Z> hazlin: hmm, maybe, we certainly have more dexterity in meat space
<2023-04-05T18:01:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: there is a cg masters course where they rig a ninja, it's quite old by now but that part of blender still seems to work the same way 
<2023-04-05T18:02:05.000Z> hazlin: translating everything into mouse movements or tablet strokes, certainly is different muscle memory 
<2023-04-05T18:03:12.000Z> hazlin: I'm working through this one as we speak blendermarket.com/products/the-ultimate-guide-to-blender-3d-rigging-and-animation
<2023-04-05T18:03:25.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and you don't have stereoscopic vision - i never noticed until ...
<2023-04-05T18:03:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh cool 
<2023-04-05T18:06:48.000Z> hazlin: I've got todor's course for using ARP and Rigify, but I feel like, I need to understand the manual processes to get the most out of them toshicg.gumroad.com/
<2023-04-05T18:07:33.000Z> hazlin: Things I need to learn about, shape keys, IK, control objects... probably other stuff I don't know about xD
<2023-04-05T19:01:37.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: :) 
<2023-04-05T19:01:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ganbare 
<2023-04-05T19:02:08.000Z> hazlin: 👍 
<2023-04-06T12:35:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: what kind of game do you guys plan to do? are you still on vampire survivor? 
<2023-04-06T12:36:23.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i was trying to be clever and rotate my model instead walking around it and take pictures 
<2023-04-06T12:37:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: meshroom would not let itself be fooled - the dude looks like he was beamed through some non euclidian dimension and reassembled upside down 
<2023-04-06T12:37:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and boy it's sloooooooooooooooow 
<2023-04-06T12:37:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ample time for cooking and cleaning :) 
<2023-04-06T12:38:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: imma practice some portrait drawing 
<2023-04-06T12:39:19.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i want to make one of the vampire queen and her soul catching gaze
<2023-04-06T12:39:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ... or at least my drug hazed impression of it 
<2023-04-06T12:39:50.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: be well :) 
<2023-04-06T13:18:54.000Z> hazlin: >vampire survivorI that is the general format for my first game.>Other people's gameThey want something that plays more like Resident Evil 1-3
<2023-04-06T13:19:14.000Z> hazlin: ...which is why I've been doing a crash course on humanoid armatures xD
<2023-04-06T13:20:45.000Z> hazlin: Fun fact, RE1-3 use a static image for the environment, you just can't tell because of the fixed camera 
<2023-04-06T13:23:23.000Z> hazlin: So I've rebuilt an example scenes in godot, One is full3d, one is fixing 2d and 3d view ports, and the one I think works the best is, I created planes in the blender environment where each thing needs to be, and gave them a texture 
<2023-04-13T08:33:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: pretty cool k
<2023-04-13T08:45:03.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i met makima and her pubs again this time i slept through till wednesday i don't think she has any inclination to talk to me any more, and that's probably for the better XD i should have written it down while i was in that dimension, that shit was *wild* 
<2023-04-13T13:41:30.000Z> hazlin: xD
<2023-04-13T13:41:36.000Z> hazlin: Glad you survived
<2023-04-29T20:17:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: hey 
<2023-04-29T20:26:10.000Z> hazlin: hello friend :D
<2023-04-29T20:26:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: long time no see,  how do you do? 
<2023-04-29T20:27:02.000Z> hazlin: I'm doing pretty good overall 
<2023-04-29T20:27:16.000Z> hazlin: been working on a game with vile and slime
<2023-04-29T20:27:28.000Z> hazlin: and been reading a lot about COMMON  LISP
<2023-04-29T20:28:07.000Z> hazlin: how about you?
<2023-04-29T20:29:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: nothing much i've been drinking way too much and didn't really get a lot done 
<2023-04-29T20:29:46.000Z> hazlin: relaxing is important as well xD
<2023-04-29T20:30:38.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's more like a quest to be less of a sperg, as in get among people and stuff 
<2023-04-29T20:37:22.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i did continue to copy the warhammer figure ... it's still not there which of the games you were working on are you talking about right now :) 
<2023-04-29T20:37:45.000Z> hazlin: The resident evil style one
<2023-04-29T20:38:32.000Z> hazlin: >copy the warhammer figureAre you making a 3d model of it, or are you sculpting it?
<2023-04-29T20:39:08.000Z> hazlin: I want to say, making it out of clay or something
<2023-04-29T20:39:13.000Z> hazlin: but I'm not certain 
<2023-04-29T20:39:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: 3d model for resin printing 
<2023-04-29T20:39:34.000Z> hazlin: nice
<2023-04-29T20:42:49.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: it's kinda cool you can send the dirtiest meshes to the printer - it doesn't care, it smoothes out all those pock mark looking surfaces you tend to produce with blenders sculpt mode a geme artist would be fired on the spot for the kind of stuff i feed to my printer 
<2023-04-29T20:47:40.000Z> hazlin: this is how that nachtrabe table top saga begins 
<2023-04-29T20:51:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: dude you have no idea, i've been a 40k nerd since 2nd. edition ^_____^ 
<2023-04-29T20:51:33.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: tell me about your game exploits 
<2023-04-29T20:51:51.000Z> hazlin: in one word it would beART
<2023-04-29T20:52:08.000Z> hazlin: The mechanics and gameplay are simple enough
<2023-04-29T20:52:24.000Z> hazlin: as you'd expect for something based on a playstation 1 d-pad only game xD
<2023-04-29T20:52:32.000Z> hazlin: BUT
<2023-04-29T20:52:40.000Z> hazlin: the art, see they have ideas
<2023-04-29T20:53:06.000Z> hazlin: but getting enough detail boiled down to the reality as been the focus so far
<2023-04-29T20:54:01.000Z> hazlin: For my part, I am trying to keep everything extremely low poly and stylized 
<2023-04-29T20:54:34.000Z> hazlin: but, essentially, I am writing very little game code at this point, and leaning heavily on learn how to draw different things xD
<2023-04-29T20:58:12.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you have any screenshots ? 
<2023-04-29T20:58:34.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and don't tell me you hooked up with a bunch of idea guys 
<2023-04-29T21:01:03.000Z> hazlin: >Idea GuysHmm that IS a good question lol. When they claimed to be writters with a story, I had expected... well a story with detail and descriptions.
<2023-04-29T21:01:43.000Z> hazlin: And, since that doesn't seem to exist I was concerned.
<2023-04-29T21:02:03.000Z> hazlin: But, I think this is a piggyback project off of something else they are working on
<2023-04-29T21:02:16.000Z> hazlin: so, when we talk about different details, they have answers
<2023-04-29T21:02:36.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh 
<2023-04-29T21:02:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but it still sounds like you are the only tech guy 
<2023-04-29T21:03:23.000Z> hazlin: So, I bug them for doodles, for map layouts, camera placements, visuals of what a camera sees, etc etc
<2023-04-29T21:04:00.000Z> hazlin: so, it feels like their vision, and I am just helping with the technical realization 
<2023-04-29T21:04:55.000Z> hazlin: honestly, if they had someone to churn out the art, this would be a very quickly developed project xD
<2023-04-29T21:05:46.000Z> hazlin: atm, they seem very secretive about the content, so I am going to forgo sharing screenshots out of respect for that, since unlike the logo stuff, it isn't all at my discretion xD
<2023-04-29T21:06:18.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you almost have me at the point to volunteer but i never finish anything ... :) 
<2023-04-29T21:06:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: * see the charity thing for reference * 
<2023-04-29T21:07:34.000Z> hazlin: lol, well I appreciate your efforts
<2023-04-29T21:07:55.000Z> hazlin: And, don't feel bad, non of the artists I commissioned produced anything that was used xD
<2023-04-29T21:08:24.000Z> hazlin: Which, really made me realize just how hard arbitrary art is
<2023-04-29T21:09:16.000Z> hazlin: Also, if you'd accept a amazon gift card, I'd be happy to pay you for the time and effort you did invest into making a 3d version of the logo
<2023-04-29T21:09:33.000Z> hazlin: I appreciate you making an attempt for me
<2023-04-29T21:11:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you still want the thing? 
<2023-04-29T21:12:26.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i mean actually be able to use it not just out of curtesy ? 
<2023-04-29T21:15:28.000Z> hazlin: Ugh, maybe? I could see myself, completing it, adding different kinds of metal or jewels for color, and it might get used for next year. BUT TBH I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT RIGHT NOW! lol The project just dragged on and on and on.Got 2500 Brochures printed, paid for, and delivered to the charity, and it is out of my hair xD
<2023-04-29T21:16:47.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > Got 2500 Brochures printed, paid for,hey coool 
<2023-04-29T21:24:52.000Z> hazlin: I am be writing a procedural vine generation script for blender xD
<2023-04-29T21:25:02.000Z> hazlin: or learning more about geometry nodes
<2023-04-29T21:25:07.000Z> hazlin: or something
<2023-04-29T21:26:50.000Z> hazlin: there are some addons on blender market for vines or trees, I even have one of them, but they produce hi-poly stuff 
<2023-04-29T21:32:58.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: is high poly still that much of a problem though? 
<2023-04-29T21:33:13.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i just don't know 
<2023-04-29T21:33:29.000Z> hazlin: It is, when I can't match it with my art skills xD
<2023-04-29T21:34:28.000Z> hazlin: essentially, this development version of the game, only has art I am creating
<2023-04-29T21:34:48.000Z> hazlin: so I don't want, photo realistic vines, beside my very low poly creations xD
<2023-04-29T21:41:46.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah gemometry nodes 
<2023-04-29T21:41:57.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i had the coolest idea 
<2023-04-29T21:42:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: everybody and their dog wants to make architecture with it 
<2023-04-29T21:43:00.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but all this stuff is cumersome as *place trorment* 
<2023-04-29T21:43:42.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i had this one idea that would make it pleasant to work with 
<2023-04-29T21:44:06.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you abuse uv maps 
<2023-04-29T21:46:25.000Z> hazlin: I actually haven't written a geometry node program yet xD I tried... yesterday? the day before? But it turned out the video I was watching was out of date xD
<2023-04-29T21:46:51.000Z> hazlin: So, I am unsure how abusing UV Maps helps :D
<2023-04-29T21:48:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: you have detail meshes for windows n stuff  and then you do a "uv projent from view" for the faces you want and the gemometry nodes use the uv maps to figure out the orientation for projecting the detail mesh onto the the face you have selected 
<2023-04-29T21:50:07.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the problem with evey arch gemometry node thing i've seen so far is that you are locked into a brittle system that stifles any creativity - and no fun to use 
<2023-04-29T21:51:24.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: ... i did this .... about 90% .... and then got depressed or destraced or something or had to work or i dunno like always 
<2023-04-29T21:52:29.000Z> hazlin: makes sense
<2023-04-29T21:52:40.000Z> hazlin: my idea for a vine generator is to
<2023-04-29T21:53:42.000Z> hazlin: grease pen on the view port, to define where a layer or type of vines should go, then project curves into the surfaces offset from said surfaces by their radius
<2023-04-29T21:54:11.000Z> hazlin: I feel like that would let me lay down vines quickly and they would only need minor manual tweeks 
<2023-04-29T21:55:49.000Z> hazlin: It sounds like we are thinking in a similar way, using the view port to rapidly plaster things together 
<2023-04-29T22:11:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the grease pencil already has a mode to project onto surfacesbut that's probably exactly what you mean i guess :) 
<2023-04-29T22:13:31.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: but yeah project from view is like the most intuitively useable thing for non programmers 
<2023-04-29T22:14:02.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: oh yeah one figment of the makima ark i have to relate because it's funny 
<2023-04-29T22:14:29.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: so we get thrown out of this super lefty punk rock place 
<2023-04-29T22:15:09.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: not because of me, but because of her - she said something not politically correct enough 
<2023-04-29T22:16:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: we walk back downtown to this scene bar which looks closed from the outside all dark - chairs on the table, the works 
<2023-04-29T22:16:28.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: they phone someone 
<2023-04-29T22:16:55.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: a dude comes out, looks at us, and says "ok come in" 
<2023-04-29T22:17:41.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: we are guided through the dark pub and are lead to the basement 
<2023-04-29T22:18:54.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and there are still partyying ging on and pretty hardcore 
<2023-04-29T22:19:39.000Z> hazlin: very underworld xD
<2023-04-29T22:19:40.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: i walk to the dancefloor and girate there for like two minutes until the DJ hands me a blunt 
<2023-04-29T22:20:16.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: the dude next to me gets another blunt handed too 
<2023-04-29T22:21:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: thing is he alredy has a blunt in each of his hands 
<2023-04-29T22:21:21.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and he signals not knowing what to do 
<2023-04-29T22:21:53.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and the dude handing it to him is like "yea just put it out then" 
<2023-04-29T22:22:01.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: and so he does 
<2023-04-29T22:23:15.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: friggn wild, but i'm waaaaaaaaay too old for this kinda stuff :) 
<2023-04-29T22:29:29.000Z> hazlin: peak underground night life xD
<2023-05-01T01:05:41.000Z> hazlin: I said that about not posting a screen shot, and the vile posted one xD 
<2023-05-01T01:05:59.000Z> hazlin: poa.st/objects/9905c89c-2083-44c0-845e-9ce120b4e889
<2023-05-01T01:10:00.000Z> hazlin: When they wanted to discuss working together, I put together a demo, creating a Resident Evil classic sort of game, a single hallway https://i.poastcdn.org/0a4f75a88da2a57e1d9da5eda72b7a7c9c2835d7f905110674a4366ee69077fa.jpg
<2023-05-01T01:12:32.000Z> hazlin: I was a bit startled by him posting a screen shot from the very first bit of development we've done on the game https://i.poastcdn.org/488375ee16e0bd6e05ecf2de35884ebfc8e539886edf2764b5f188b7bb6187f9.jpg
<2023-05-01T02:15:20.000Z> hazlin: A recording of the demo level, these were my first human rig animations https://i.poastcdn.org/f655f58b15419697d44c26a2f96d5d3181c301aea3f9c8c696e03875f8794bd1.m4v
<2023-05-01T12:10:52.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: > these were my first human rig animationsimpressive 
<2023-05-01T12:16:44.000Z> nachtrabe@bae.st: are you guys shooting for deliberately low poly?
<2023-05-01T19:12:11.000Z> hazlin: >are you guys shooting for deliberately low poly?That is more or less what I can do xD
<2023-05-01T19:13:47.000Z> hazlin: They are talking about getting to Fatal Frame levels of detail, and, if they want that right now, they'll need to have someone rework the art behind me to bring it up to that level of detail 
<2023-05-01T19:14:31.000Z> hazlin: Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to through in that level of polish during, what is essentially alpha development 
<2023-05-01T19:16:55.000Z> hazlin: So, I am trying to make place holder art, that isn't an abomination, but doesn't eat up too much time
<2023-05-01T19:20:41.000Z> hazlin: Even if I can do more for the art, I shouldn't, because right now the most important thing is to get a playable, mechanically correct game in place