<2022-08-08T19:08:21.000Z> gweilo: Hey, I wanted to thank you for the Problem of Evil episode you just put up on VLL. This has been bugging me for a while and you helped put some things in perspective. One point that's really stuck in my craw is the events leading up to the Fall. My (Catholic) understanding is that the tree in Eden was placed there as a test of mankind which A&E passed until Satan tempted Eve. What I'm having trouble understanding is why Satan was in the Garden of Eden to begin with. Again, my understanding of Eden is that it was designed to test mankind just as the angels had been tested before. Satan's fall is caused by his own will, while Eve's fall comes through external temptation. At first she's obedient and repeats God's prohibition back to Satan, and only falls after he lies to her.Absent Satan, Eve passes the test. With Satan in the Garden, failure seems inevitable given the superior angelic intellect. My main question is: did God set mankind up to fail by allowing Satan in the Garden?I understand you're busy, so let me know if this has already been addressed elsewhere. Thanks and God Bless, Super.
<2022-08-08T19:40:38.000Z> SuperLutheran: So Adam and Eve were rational people. In a state of zero sin, they did not suffer what's called the "noetic effects" of original sin - that humans sometimes get it wrong.
<2022-08-08T19:41:13.000Z> SuperLutheran: That said, the choice they were presented with was thus not something they were doomed to make: it was a real test, not a setup.
<2022-08-08T19:42:11.000Z> SuperLutheran: I'd say the difficulty here is in asking *why* they went after what the devil said, when they obviously ought to have known better.
<2022-08-08T19:43:09.000Z> SuperLutheran: If I had to speculate, I'd say they were told two things: God had said "do not eat of this, for in the day you eat of it you will die," while the devil basically said "God is holding out on you, because you'll be like God if you eat it."
<2022-08-08T19:44:46.000Z> SuperLutheran: The decision Eve made, given her perception of it, was likely rationalized like this:
<2022-08-08T19:45:54.000Z> SuperLutheran: "God said if I eat this I will die, but that's it. This serpent says I get something out of eating it. If I follow God's command, then I get nothing - I just keep living. But if this serpent is right, not only do I keep living, I get to be a goddess!"
<2022-08-08T19:46:55.000Z> SuperLutheran: Adam on the other hand, did know better. He knew *very* well that the serpent was lying.
<2022-08-08T19:47:33.000Z> SuperLutheran: God says in Genesis 3 that Adam listened to the voice of his wife - not the serpent. He was right there, not eating the fruit until Eve gave it to him and talked him into it.
<2022-08-08T19:48:51.000Z> SuperLutheran: Which means that Adam likely (again, a bit of spectulation here) figured that his wife would die - and he didn't want to go back to being alone.
<2022-08-08T19:49:01.000Z> SuperLutheran: Eve made an idol out of herself: Adam made an idol out of Eve.
<2022-08-08T19:50:11.000Z> SuperLutheran: Both of them would not necessarily have persisted forever without having eaten the forbidden fruit (we can't know whether that would be the case), 
<2022-08-08T19:51:07.000Z> SuperLutheran: but we do know at the very least that they had a real choice: trust God, or trust the serpent. They heard both parties and made the wrong choice.
<2022-08-08T20:06:51.000Z> gweilo: Thank you for the quick answer! It's very much appreciated. 
<2022-08-08T20:07:50.000Z> gweilo: this helps put things in context
<2022-08-08T20:08:24.000Z> SuperLutheran: Happy to be of service!