<2022-11-15T03:19:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I hear that you're a Byzantine rite tradcath?
<2022-11-15T06:40:44.000Z> Nou: I am indeed.
<2022-11-15T06:41:56.000Z> Nou: I kind of dislike the "trad" because honestly every Catholic should reject modernism, and the label has some spergy connotations.
<2022-11-15T06:42:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not possible to be a Catholic and not reject modernism.
<2022-11-15T06:42:38.000Z> Nou: But it's fairly accurate.
<2022-11-15T06:43:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t like the label either tbh because it implies that there’s such thing as a non-traditional Catholic.
<2022-11-15T06:43:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What’s your stance on the papacy? So you think that John XXIII onwards are popes? Do you think that they’re heretics?
<2022-11-15T06:58:34.000Z> Nou: I'm not entirely sold on the sedevacantist position, tbh.
<2022-11-15T06:59:18.000Z> Nou: I'm open to it, but I haven't seen definitive proof, in either direction.
<2022-11-15T06:59:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Do you have any particular objections to it? And do you think that the novus ordo papal claimants promote heresy?
<2022-11-15T06:59:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m a bit of a theology nerd… I kinda had to be because I was an adult convert haha.
<2022-11-15T07:00:58.000Z> Nou: I'd say that I have a slight bias against, because I think there is a very real chance that if the position is correct, Apostolic succession may very well be dead and buried. At least within the Latin Rite.
<2022-11-15T07:00:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So I’ve studied the pope question a bit ans I actually have a list of links about it, discussing different stances on the issue and the evidence for/against them.
<2022-11-15T07:01:51.000Z> Nou: Which would seem to suggest that the gates of hell have prevailed. Something we know can't happen.
<2022-11-15T07:01:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Have you heard of the Council of Constance?
<2022-11-15T07:03:01.000Z> Nou: Yeah, the links would be great. I'm always open to new information. Especially on such an important topic.
<2022-11-15T07:03:58.000Z> Nou: I have heard of it, yes. But my knowledge on the Council is pretty sparse.
<2022-11-15T07:05:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Basically the Cardinals messed up big time and there was three dudes claimed to be pope all at the same time, and the Council of Constance was called to figure out which one is a pope and to potentially elect a new one if need be.
<2022-11-15T07:06:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So hypothetically speaking, a pope-less council of bishops, similar to the Council of Constance, could occur to elect a pope.
<2022-11-15T07:06:42.000Z> Nou: Oh, right. Of course. I'm familiar with the crisis. I was completely blanking on Constance resolving it.
<2022-11-15T07:07:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What the council of Constans did was establish who exactly was the valid pope, but the valid pope died so at that council a new pope was elected.
<2022-11-15T07:08:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: but believe it or not the question of how to get a pulp without the need for cardinals or even a group of Bishops was answered over 100 years ago.
<2022-11-15T07:08:18.000Z> Nou: Yes, agreed. My concern is less about the election of a new Pontiff, and more about the validity of and Priests/Bishops ordained/consecrated since V2.
<2022-11-15T07:08:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s a very valid concern.
<2022-11-15T07:08:57.000Z> Nou: Because so much time has past, there are very few, if any pre-V2 bishops around.
<2022-11-15T07:09:19.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There’s definitely some.
<2022-11-15T07:09:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Bishop Pivarunas of the CMRI is one.
<2022-11-15T07:09:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The guy who replaced Bishop Dolan is another.
<2022-11-15T07:10:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: (I don’t always remember names).
<2022-11-15T07:10:30.000Z> Nou: Lol. Sorry, I had to look him up.
<2022-11-15T07:10:45.000Z> Nou: It says he was consecrated in 91?
<2022-11-15T07:11:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In the pre-1968 rite by a pre-1968 rite bishop, yes.
<2022-11-15T07:11:51.000Z> Nou: Lol. No worries, I'm awful with names.
<2022-11-15T07:12:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Same with Dolan and the guy who succeeded him.
<2022-11-15T07:12:20.000Z> Nou: Ok. Interesting.
<2022-11-15T07:13:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://traditioninaction.org/religious/g019_Judg-6.htm
<2022-11-15T07:14:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In that link, you can see that an individual who was declared Venerable by a pre-Vatican II pope said that Saint Peter would come back and appoint a pope himself.
<2022-11-15T07:15:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’d say that’s the most probable way to get a pope in a time when there is no pope in the event of an extended interregnum without cardinals or bishops who are intent on electing a pope.
<2022-11-15T07:16:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: As for the gates of hell prevailing argument, I got both an article and a video on that, and you can take your pick as to which format you prefer or view both if you’d like:
<2022-11-15T07:17:04.000Z> Nou: Certainly a possibility. Pretty scary thought.
<2022-11-15T07:17:38.000Z> Nou: Both, please.
<2022-11-15T07:18:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2lk7iqIO
<2022-11-15T07:18:21.000Z> Nou: Though I have to warn you, it is 2AM where I am. Probably won't get to them tonight.
<2022-11-15T07:18:39.000Z> Nou: But will absolutely watch/read both.
<2022-11-15T07:19:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://novusordowatch.org/2015/12/have-gates-of-hell-prevailed
<2022-11-15T07:19:20.000Z> Nou: Looks like the video is unavailable... 😔
<2022-11-15T07:19:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You must be on the east coast because it’s 12 AM here in MST.
<2022-11-15T07:20:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Oh, I mispelled the video haha.
<2022-11-15T07:21:52.000Z> Nou: I am, yeah. Ohio specifically.
<2022-11-15T07:22:06.000Z> Nou: So not "coast", obviously.
<2022-11-15T07:22:20.000Z> Nou: Lol
<2022-11-15T07:22:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Here’s the right link: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2lk7iqIjHIo
<2022-11-15T07:23:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sorry about that.
<2022-11-15T07:23:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m in Colorado.
<2022-11-15T07:24:14.000Z> Nou: Lol. Nothing to be sorry about. I really appreciate the info.
<2022-11-15T07:24:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Here’s an article and video on how the novus ordo rite for episcopal consecartion is invailid:
<2022-11-15T07:24:26.000Z> Nou: And Colorado... oof.
<2022-11-15T07:27:19.000Z> Nou: Sorry, o offense meant there.
<2022-11-15T07:27:55.000Z> Nou: Everyone I've ever met from CO was great. I just meant it's sad what's happening there.
<2022-11-15T07:32:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf and https://youtube.com/watch?v=ahzcFOFA9qE
<2022-11-15T07:32:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sorry I took so long, but I entered in those links by hand.
<2022-11-15T07:33:25.000Z> Nou: Oh, no worries at all. I really appreciate the info.
<2022-11-15T07:33:43.000Z> Nou: Absolutely nothing to be sorry about.
<2022-11-15T07:33:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But yeah, I’m not a fan of Colorado either, and I’m also not from here. I hate it here. I’m actually from the Northeast.
<2022-11-15T07:34:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I hate nearly everything about here tbh.
<2022-11-15T07:34:24.000Z> Nou: Oh, whereabouts, if you don't mind me asking?
<2022-11-15T07:34:40.000Z> Nou: And I'm really sorry to hear that.
<2022-11-15T07:35:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: New York, which contrary to popular belief is actually a pretty rural and red state.
<2022-11-15T07:35:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I hate how people equate the state with that city.
<2022-11-15T07:35:40.000Z> Nou: Lol. Upstate, absolutely.
<2022-11-15T07:36:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The city ruins New York’s name and image.
<2022-11-15T07:36:31.000Z> Nou: In a former life, a business where I worked absorbed a company in Buffalo, so I got to spend some time up there.
<2022-11-15T07:36:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And the people in Albany cater to the NYC people. I hate that.
<2022-11-15T07:37:06.000Z> Nou: For sure. That's the same all over.
<2022-11-15T07:37:14.000Z> Nou: Sadly.
<2022-11-15T07:37:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Other than those 2 things, New York is perfect.
<2022-11-15T07:37:29.000Z> Nou: Well...
<2022-11-15T07:37:38.000Z> Nou: It's not Ohio. So...
<2022-11-15T07:37:44.000Z> Nou: 😉
<2022-11-15T07:39:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I miss how it’s like 99% White, I miss how it’s not arid enough to suck the moisture out of your skin like here on the High Plains, I miss how wooded it was… and because I grew up there, it has a special place in my heart.
<2022-11-15T07:39:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I miss the lake effect snow.
<2022-11-15T07:40:25.000Z> Nou: Lol. Really?
<2022-11-15T07:40:37.000Z> Nou: I was with you until LES.
<2022-11-15T07:41:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Hey, I’m built for the cold.
<2022-11-15T07:41:18.000Z> Nou: Oh, I love the cold.
<2022-11-15T07:41:36.000Z> Nou: (Also, very appealing, I might add.)
<2022-11-15T07:42:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Colorado feels like Mexico and I hate that. I don’t want to feel liie a foreigner in my own country. Send the Hispanics back to Mexico and send all the White-hating and just plain whiney-about-slavery blacks to Liberia.
<2022-11-15T07:42:34.000Z> Nou: But the wet, heavy snow, I could do without. Inland powdery snow though? All day everyday.
<2022-11-15T07:42:55.000Z> Nou: Yeah, I hear that.
<2022-11-15T07:42:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I just like snow at all.
<2022-11-15T07:43:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The more, the merrier.
<2022-11-15T07:43:23.000Z> Nou: Fair enough. Completely understandable.
<2022-11-15T07:43:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There’s a store here that if you go in, it feels like you’re in the Congo.
<2022-11-15T07:44:11.000Z> Nou: Well, you must be quite good looking to have always had a guy to shovel all that snow for you.
<2022-11-15T07:44:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, I’m just young haha. 22.
<2022-11-15T07:44:52.000Z> Nou: (Psst. Just take the compliment.)
<2022-11-15T07:44:57.000Z> Nou: 😏
<2022-11-15T07:44:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I never had to because my parents did it for me, and I got a bit of a late start so I don’t even have my license.
<2022-11-15T07:45:16.000Z> Nou: Also very appealing.
<2022-11-15T07:45:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I got a road test coming up though.
<2022-11-15T07:45:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m gonna work real hard to get overprepared for the test, like I did with my permit test.
<2022-11-15T07:46:05.000Z> Nou: Oh, nice. I'll say a prayer you do well.
<2022-11-15T07:46:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Thanks.
<2022-11-15T07:46:25.000Z> Nou: And that the weather holds and you stay safe.
<2022-11-15T07:46:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I actually have a driving lesson in the evening today.
<2022-11-15T07:46:51.000Z> Nou: Very nice.
<2022-11-15T07:47:07.000Z> Nou: How do you like it?
<2022-11-15T07:47:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I had a black guy give me the most predatory stare in that store… I looked around, trying to think of how to react, and then I went to my dad, and only then did he stop giving me that stare.
<2022-11-15T07:47:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Like they say: around blacks, never relax.
<2022-11-15T07:48:07.000Z> Nou: Yeah. That's infuriating.
<2022-11-15T07:48:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Driving, well I see it as more of a means to an end than anything else.
<2022-11-15T07:48:22.000Z> Nou: Glad your dad was around.
<2022-11-15T07:48:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Me too. I’d might end up a single mom and look like a coalburner.
<2022-11-15T07:49:05.000Z> Nou: Lol.
<2022-11-15T07:49:30.000Z> Nou: I would think those would be relatively small concerns.
<2022-11-15T07:50:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Being a single mom would be bad enough by itself, but any White man who isn’t deterred by a single mom would likely think twice about getting with a woman who everyone’ll think cucked him.
<2022-11-15T07:50:25.000Z> Nou: Yes. I agree.
<2022-11-15T07:50:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If the kid is White then at least he can pretend that it’s his kid.
<2022-11-15T07:50:48.000Z> Nou: But the process of getting there seems horrifying.
<2022-11-15T07:51:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yeah, and believe me, I’ve already had a very similar experience to rape.
<2022-11-15T07:51:35.000Z> Nou: Oh wow. I'm so sorry.
<2022-11-15T07:51:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I was held down and injected with something against my will in an ambulance for refusing to wear a mask.
<2022-11-15T07:51:56.000Z> Nou: Uggh.
<2022-11-15T07:52:01.000Z> Nou: Vile
<2022-11-15T07:52:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: With jews, you lose.
<2022-11-15T07:52:14.000Z> Nou: Yup.
<2022-11-15T07:53:13.000Z> Nou: That's really horrifying. I'm sorry to hear that.
<2022-11-15T07:53:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I understand exactly what rape victims go through. I realized that one of the reasons why people tend to turn gay after rape is that a person can only take so much trauma, and that in order to cope with that they can actually twist their perception of it ot make it seem pleasurable in order to cope.
<2022-11-15T07:54:24.000Z> Nou: I'm not sure I agree.
<2022-11-15T07:54:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You haven’t seen the statistics?
<2022-11-15T07:54:48.000Z> Nou: With the naturalist explanation for sodomism, that is.
<2022-11-15T07:55:07.000Z> Nou: Oh, no. They are certainly all abused sexually.
<2022-11-15T07:55:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sodomism is definitely not natural. Even as a 13-ish year old atheist I knew that.
<2022-11-15T07:55:32.000Z> Nou: I just suspect the behavior is demonic in origin.
<2022-11-15T07:55:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Well who do you think invented sin?
<2022-11-15T07:56:10.000Z> Nou: That's an interesting question.
<2022-11-15T07:56:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Of course it’s demonic in origin, like all sin. The first sin wasn’t the sin of Adam, it was the sin of the now-fallen angels.
<2022-11-15T07:56:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Satan is their leader.
<2022-11-15T07:57:14.000Z> Nou: But my point was just that I don't think the abuse *alone* causes sodomism.
<2022-11-15T07:57:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Although I hear that in hell there is no real hierarchy, just smarter demons torturing dumber demons.
<2022-11-15T07:57:32.000Z> Nou: I believe they're suffering from possession.
<2022-11-15T07:58:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That could be the case for some, but honestly I don’t think it applies to all.
<2022-11-15T07:58:28.000Z> Nou: Well, not to be explicit. But what they do...
<2022-11-15T07:58:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: For some, homosexual rape was their first sexual experience and thus they end up thinking that it’s normal and ok behavior.
<2022-11-15T07:58:57.000Z> Nou: Someone else would have to be controlling me for me to have any interest in that.
<2022-11-15T07:59:39.000Z> Nou: Well, ritual is very important. It's possible the abuse just opens the door for possession.
<2022-11-15T07:59:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: For others, it’s that they twisted a traumatic experience into seeming good in order to save themselves mentally.
<2022-11-15T08:00:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And for others still, it’s due to being a coomer.
<2022-11-15T08:00:23.000Z> Nou: Right.
<2022-11-15T08:00:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: People who watch porn act it out.
<2022-11-15T08:00:38.000Z> Nou: That does seem to be true.
<2022-11-15T08:00:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s statistically observable.
<2022-11-15T08:01:06.000Z> Nou: Lol. I'm aware.
<2022-11-15T08:02:40.000Z> Nou: Wow, I just saw the time.
<2022-11-15T08:02:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Lemme guess: You’re in your 30s or 40s?
<2022-11-15T08:03:00.000Z> Nou: Lol. Early 30's. Yes.
<2022-11-15T08:03:09.000Z> Nou: That obvious?
<2022-11-15T08:03:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Almost any time I get along with people, they’re a decade or 2 older than me.
<2022-11-15T08:03:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: i knew it!
<2022-11-15T08:04:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Anyway, sleep well and have a blessed rest of your night. Sorry to keep you up.
<2022-11-15T08:04:59.000Z> Nou: Though you have me at a bit of a disadvantage. I would never tell a lady she seems older than she is. But you do seem to have your head on straight.
<2022-11-15T08:05:15.000Z> Nou: Something that is more and more rare.
<2022-11-15T08:05:42.000Z> Nou: And no apology necessary. The time absolutely flew by.
<2022-11-15T08:05:54.000Z> Nou: I really enjoyed this.
<2022-11-15T08:06:56.000Z> Nou: I'm for sure going to watch/read, and we can discuss more when I've absorbed the info.
<2022-11-15T08:07:32.000Z> Nou: I'd love to talk some more tomorrow, if you're up for that.
<2022-11-15T08:07:43.000Z> Nou: Or, rather later today.
<2022-11-15T14:47:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s ok, I’ve been told that I usually act mature for my age. I don’t see anything to get offended over in that. I just happened to get redpilled by Gamergate and from there it was a huge rabbithole to how I am now. The Catholic-pill I only took around 4 years ago (I was baptized 3 years ago, after several months of catechism classes), but if I hadn’t already been redpilled by the Gamergate stuff then the guy who converted me wouldn’t have done so, so I guess in a way it was due to Gamergate too, even if not directly. The JQ pill was one of my later redpills, as I didn’t quite know about (I knew about the Rothschilds and their agenda, but I thought that the problem was Sabbatean Frankism rather than Judaism being the Synagogue of Satan) until after I met the guys who converted me.
<2022-11-15T14:50:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If you redpill a girl at that age, well, apparently everyone’ll think that she’s either older than she is or the acts like it. That’s my experience anyway. I just accept the reality of it.
<2022-11-15T14:51:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: *or that she acts like it
<2022-11-15T14:54:16.000Z> Nou: Yeah, I think you're largely right about that.
<2022-11-15T14:54:51.000Z> Nou: Also, congratulations! Very happy to hear about you finding the Church.
<2022-11-15T15:00:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Thanks.
<2022-11-15T15:01:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Part of me mourns the loss of blissful ignorance, while another part of me is glad to have been saved then trouble that I’d have otherwise gotten into had I not been redpilled so early on.
<2022-11-15T15:01:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So I have mixed feelings about it.
<2022-11-15T15:02:22.000Z> Nou: So if you don't mind me asking, how'd you end up in CO? Sounds like that wasn't a move you'd have picked for yourself.
<2022-11-15T15:03:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: My dad had to move for work and I tagged along.
<2022-11-15T15:04:37.000Z> Nou: Yeah, I get that impulse. But I'm personally of the opinion that it is better to have the truth, even a hard truth, than to live a lie.
<2022-11-15T15:04:54.000Z> Nou: Gotcha.
<2022-11-15T15:06:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m kinda split between that and thinking that invincible ignorance is better.
<2022-11-15T15:08:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Because with invincible ignorance you can only be held accountable for your thoughts/actions so much. To know the truth puts a huge weight of responsibility on your shoulders. But it also is genuinely empowering in a way.
<2022-11-15T15:10:15.000Z> Nou: Yeah, like I said, I have a lot of sympathy for the position.
<2022-11-15T15:10:46.000Z> Nou: I guess I've just never been the type to shy away from responsibility.
<2022-11-15T15:11:18.000Z> Nou: Plus, making decisions with bad or incomplete information almost never turns out well.
<2022-11-15T15:15:50.000Z> Nou: By the way, I don't think I've mentioned it yet, but that's a great username.
<2022-11-15T15:18:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yeah, it’s good to be responsible. I’m afraid of what God will do with me because my knowledge maximises my personal accountability for what I not only do but also think. It’s a bit inimidating to know that He is monitoring and judging my every thought and action.
<2022-11-15T15:20:37.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Thanks btw. I pulled it out of a list of potential usernames that I made. When I come up with something that sounds amusing or clever enough, I just put in there and then have a buffet to choose from for wherever I may show up next.
<2022-11-15T15:22:33.000Z> Nou: Lol. That's adorable.
<2022-11-15T15:23:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Really? I thought that it was just practical.
<2022-11-15T15:24:26.000Z> Nou: Well, it can be both. But absolutely adorable.
<2022-11-15T15:25:08.000Z> Nou: I probably have something close to that mentally, but writing it out like that is very cute.
<2022-11-15T15:28:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That, I don’t get. When I think of adorable, I think of things like my cat wanting to be snuggled, not doing things to make stuff more convenient for myself. As one who is of a melancholic-choleric temperament, I try to research and brainstorm what to do to get what I want and make things practical for myself and then just go ahead and do it.
<2022-11-15T15:30:48.000Z> Nou: Yeah, I'm trying to articulate what I find so cute about it. But I'm having some trouble putting my finger on it.
<2022-11-15T15:31:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Weird.
<2022-11-15T15:32:06.000Z> Nou: Lol. Look at you, with the flattery.
<2022-11-15T15:33:05.000Z> Nou: I think it might because it's something stereotypically nerdy. And there's something endearing about a girl who is brazenly and unashamedly nerdy.
<2022-11-15T15:35:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Oh, well I do admit that I have some nerdy tendencies.
<2022-11-15T15:36:07.000Z> Nou: Lol. I get that impression.
<2022-11-15T15:36:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s one of the reasons why Twilight Sparkle is my favorite G4 pony, and it’s why Wind Whistler is my favorite G1 pony.
<2022-11-15T15:37:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t think I ever understood why nerds are seen as uncool.
<2022-11-15T15:37:40.000Z> Nou: So... believe it or not, I have exactly zero idea what ant of that means.
<2022-11-15T15:38:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It means that I’m a fan of My Little Pony and that I’ve seen both ‘80s MLP and 2010-2019 MLP.
<2022-11-15T15:38:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And that I favor nerdy characters.
<2022-11-15T15:39:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Twilight Sparkle was a nerd that she isolated herself because she prioritized her studies over giving a chance to friendship with anyone besides her older brother.
<2022-11-15T15:39:21.000Z> Nou: Well, they sort of definitionally are. To be nerdy not only implies intelligence, but a certain flaunting of social mores. Or at a minimum an indifference to them.
<2022-11-15T15:39:56.000Z> Nou: And being "cool" is almost entirely wrapped up in adherence to social mores.
<2022-11-15T15:40:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: She had OCD until like the tail end of the show.
<2022-11-15T15:40:35.000Z> Nou: Lol. Gotcha.
<2022-11-15T15:41:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Wind Whistler was a pony in ‘80s MLP who was bit like her but without OCD and as far as I know, Wind Whistler was never seen being very sentimental, unlike Twilight Sparkle after she accidentally made friends from outside of her family.
<2022-11-15T15:41:42.000Z> Nou: I have to be honest. I never imagined I'd have any interest in listening to MLP information. But you have a way of selling it.
<2022-11-15T15:42:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The reason why I don’t care about social norms and things like that is the fact that I was a outcast no matter what I did. In preschool I would go to other kids and ask him if I could play with them and they wouldn’t give me a chance, so I learn to entertain myself and to just say screw it and do my own thing because I had no choice.
<2022-11-15T15:42:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: *ask them
<2022-11-15T15:43:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In middle school, I was the one kid who everyone else in the grade hated. I had no friends at all in my grade.
<2022-11-15T15:44:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: When everyone rejects someone without even giving them a chance, that tends to create introverts who care more about logic than how they make others feel.
<2022-11-15T15:45:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Being a social outcast won’t kill you, it just fosters melancholic and choleric tendencies. Like “You won’t let me even have a chance? Fine, I’ll just go do my own thing.”.
<2022-11-15T15:46:43.000Z> Nou: Well, I'm really sorry to hear that.
<2022-11-15T15:47:02.000Z> Nou: And I don't get it, to be completely honest.
<2022-11-15T15:47:25.000Z> Nou: I mean, I get what you're saying and agree.
<2022-11-15T15:47:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Although honestly, the melancholy was always inside of me because I was always very curious. In the past few years, my choleric streak has overrided my melancholy to some degree, largely restricting my research activities to those which specifically help me achieve my goals.
<2022-11-15T15:48:00.000Z> Nou: I mean, I don't understand you being an outcast. I've really enjoyed taking to you thus far.
<2022-11-15T15:48:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Well, maybe you’re a freak like me and thus birds of a feather and all.
<2022-11-15T15:49:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I was basically Naruto. Everyone at school hated me besides the occasional nice teacher, and now I have the choleric streak of Naruto with the melancholy and OCD of Twilight Sparkle, and am often caught being hyperlogical like Wind Whistler.
<2022-11-15T15:51:58.000Z> Nou: Lol. You are quite the charmer, you know that?
<2022-11-15T15:52:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: To freaks like me, sure. To others? No, I’m quite the opposite.
<2022-11-15T15:53:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I know a guy who hates me for, as he put it, being a human “encyclopedia”, and who gets angry at me when I talk about things that I know alot about.
<2022-11-15T15:54:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Even if I didn’t start the conversation, if it steers in a direction toward somerhing I know alot about then he gets angry if I participate.
<2022-11-15T15:55:05.000Z> Nou: Lol. Sounds like a douche.
<2022-11-15T15:56:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s part of why I liked Naruto so much - like him, I was a complete and utter outcaste and I didn’t even know why, just like him for most of the first 12 years of his life. I’ve suffered from not fulfilling a purpose, like him and Twilight Sparkle. But unlike him, I’m more of a reader and am not hyperactive. All I have is my butch personality and alot of stubbornness that translates to determination to get what I want.
<2022-11-15T15:58:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I wish that I could adopt Naruto. I’ve been wanting kids for a few years now, and what better kid to have than the orphan who has a similar past as myself?
<2022-11-15T16:00:03.000Z> Nou: Lol. Adopt? So you're ruling out the more traditional method?
<2022-11-15T16:05:46.000Z> Nou: Sorry if that's too personal.
<2022-11-15T18:13:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m not, I just don’t see how I’d find the right guy.
<2022-11-15T18:18:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: All I’ve found so far are some coomers, a guy with sociopathic tendencies, a guy who just wasn’t compatible with me, a guy who acted psychopathic due to a demon giving him ideas on what to do (who is now tempted to become a religious brother, and in fact he even did a trial period of it and said that it was nice), a guy with impulsive tendencies who seems to be a doormat for his mom, and guys who are a bit effeminate even if not gay.
<2022-11-15T18:20:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If I understand right, a woman is supposed to have some serious respect for her husband, and I just can’t bring myself to respect effeminate men even if I like them as a friend.
<2022-11-15T18:21:00.000Z> Nou: Wow, I'm sorry to hear all that.
<2022-11-15T18:21:28.000Z> Nou: But you're super young. Way too young to be giving up hope.
<2022-11-15T18:22:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But my personality is so rare among men and even rarer among women. It seems like there’s not many White guys who are more choleric than me, and when I do encounter one then they’ll just cuck on one thing or another or be needlessly hostile (for instance, I had a friend who accused me of heresy over a misunderstanding and thus it seems that he lost interest in talking to me).
<2022-11-15T18:22:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: He thought that I was advocating for contraception, when in reality I was advocating on getting rid of mestizos.
<2022-11-15T18:23:12.000Z> Nou: Do you need someone more choleric than you?
<2022-11-15T18:23:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t want to keep them from breeding, I want to keep them from being in the US.
<2022-11-15T18:23:22.000Z> Nou: Lol. See?
<2022-11-15T18:23:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I suspect.
<2022-11-15T18:24:01.000Z> Nou: Opposing contraception AND mestizos makes you sound like quite a catch.
<2022-11-15T18:24:11.000Z> Nou: In my book, at least.
<2022-11-15T18:24:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Either I need a guy who is more choleric than me or who is phlegmatic enough to let me be in charge, and the latter I’ve realized that I have no real respect for even though I can have a close friendship with them.
<2022-11-15T18:25:25.000Z> Nou: I was gonna say, the latter sounds awful.
<2022-11-15T18:26:27.000Z> Nou: Though I'm not sure I understand the link between being choleric and being in charge, honestly.
<2022-11-15T18:26:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not that I have anything against phlegmatic men per se, I mean if I got with one then it would let me express my leadership streak, but I just don’t seem to respect them the way that supposedly a woman should her husband.
<2022-11-15T18:27:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/temperament/what-is-the-choleric-temperament/
<2022-11-15T18:27:32.000Z> Nou: Lol. I know what it means.
<2022-11-15T18:27:46.000Z> Nou: I still don't see the link.
<2022-11-15T18:29:42.000Z> Nou: In fact, in my experience, it's rather unproductive for leaders to be choleric.
<2022-11-15T18:31:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Choleric people are natural leaders.
<2022-11-15T18:32:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They desire to be in a position of authority and they’re good at handling the responsibilities of leadership.
<2022-11-15T18:33:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m not aggressive as is often stereotyped for choleric folks, I’m just a natural leader, stubborn, and not really the type to suck up to others.
<2022-11-15T18:33:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And goal-oriented. All choleric traits.
<2022-11-15T18:37:14.000Z> Nou: So, don't take this the wrong way, but I think you may be a bit too invested in a pseudo-psych hypothesis built on a biological paradigm that's, frankly, flat out wrong?
<2022-11-15T18:37:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What?
<2022-11-15T18:38:10.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It seems right to me from what I’ve observed in watching people.
<2022-11-15T18:38:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I haven’t found a better explanation for what I’ve seen.
<2022-11-15T18:39:27.000Z> Nou: The humors based personality archetypes are based on the idea that your psyche is influenced by a disproportionate amount of specific humors. Which is obvious bunk.
<2022-11-15T18:39:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Oh, well yeah I’m not sure that I buy into that.
<2022-11-15T18:39:59.000Z> Nou: Ok, don't misunderstand. I'm not denying you've seen what you've seen.
<2022-11-15T18:40:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But the 4 temperaments thing does align with what I’ve seen in people.
<2022-11-15T18:40:37.000Z> Nou: But my guess is that it primarily comes down to two main factors 
<2022-11-15T18:40:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s just that what is traditionally viewed as the reason why people are like that I doubt.
<2022-11-15T18:40:59.000Z> Nou: The first being confirmation bias.
<2022-11-15T18:41:35.000Z> Nou: And the second is that *all* of these psychological archetypes are basically astrology.
<2022-11-15T18:41:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s definitely not that because I observed this stuff before I even know what the 4 temperaments are.
<2022-11-15T18:42:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The idea as to why is astrology, but the personality types are very much real to anyone who is paying attention to behavioral patterns.
<2022-11-15T18:43:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I have yet to see anyone who doesn’t fall into 1 or more of those personality types.
<2022-11-15T18:44:05.000Z> Nou: It's like astrology in that the archetypes are written so broadly that anyone can be shoehorned into any of them depending on what your goal is.
<2022-11-15T18:44:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’ve heard that sort of argument before.
<2022-11-15T18:44:46.000Z> Nou: Much like how horoscopes are written intentionally vaguely enough that anyone reading one will see them in it.
<2022-11-15T18:45:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Astrology isn’t as broad as you’d might think though… I’m a gemini and am like the opposite of a gemini personality.
<2022-11-15T18:45:58.000Z> Nou: That's fine. It wasn't a hard and fast rule. Just an analogy.
<2022-11-15T18:46:13.000Z> Nou: Ok, let me ask you this.
<2022-11-15T18:46:34.000Z> Nou: You seem very methodical and goal oriented.
<2022-11-15T18:46:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yeah?
<2022-11-15T18:46:56.000Z> Nou: Is this framing helping you get closer to your goals?
<2022-11-15T18:47:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In theory, potentially.
<2022-11-15T18:47:37.000Z> Nou: Lol. I didn't ask about in theory.
<2022-11-15T18:48:12.000Z> Nou: In practice. Has it gotten you any closer to the life you ultimately want?
<2022-11-15T18:48:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I mean I can’t know for sure as there’s so many unknown factors that would affect the calculation, thus rendering it impossible.
<2022-11-15T18:49:15.000Z> Nou: Lol. That sounds like some shitlib "find the gene" reasoning, tbh.
<2022-11-15T18:49:23.000Z> Nou: Pardon my language.
<2022-11-15T18:49:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: How so? “find the gene” is a biological impossibility.
<2022-11-15T18:50:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: At least if you mean for a gay gene.
<2022-11-15T18:50:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Because gays don’t breed.
<2022-11-15T18:51:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m just going off of what I’ve observed and pairing it with what I’ve read to explain what I’ve observed.
<2022-11-15T18:51:08.000Z> Nou: Yes. Exactly. Shitlibs will often demand an unreasonable scientific standard when talking about things like heritability studies.
<2022-11-15T18:51:51.000Z> Nou: I think you are doing the same thing, if I may be perfectly blunt.
<2022-11-15T18:52:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I really do think that the 4 temperaments fit the majority of people very precisely based on what I’ve seen, although there is some wiggle room. I don’t think I’ve really seen anyone who truly deviates from it.
<2022-11-15T18:52:39.000Z> Nou: It seems like you're unwilling to adapt the framing because you are tied to the framing, rather than its efficacy.
<2022-11-15T18:53:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The 4 have alot of potential for being combined and this combination seems to produce the diversity in personality types that we see.
<2022-11-15T18:53:35.000Z> Nou: Alright.
<2022-11-15T18:53:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m not tied to the framing, I just haven’t seen any data or anything that contradicts it.
<2022-11-15T18:53:56.000Z> Nou: Ok.
<2022-11-15T18:54:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sometimes opposites can be combined, like melancholic sanguine - a person whose primary need is to figure out what the right thing to do is, and whose secondary need is to fit in.
<2022-11-15T18:55:22.000Z> Nou: Sure. As I said, I'm familiar with the paradigm.
<2022-11-15T18:55:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’ve heard criticism but never any alternative explanation that accounts for the patterns I see.
<2022-11-15T18:56:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If you have one then I’m all ears. I can only go off of what I know, not what I don’t know.
<2022-11-15T18:57:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’d be very dishonest to say that people are just a blank slate and that there isn’t an eat least largely-consistent set of personality types among the population.
<2022-11-15T18:58:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Most people are followers, for instance. A minority of people are leaders, and a minority of people are thinkers, while most people are more feelers than thinkers.
<2022-11-15T18:58:11.000Z> Nou: Well, in my estimation, the explanation is that certain personality traits do seem to crop up together, and that the paradigm was disgned post facto to try and sell self-help books.
<2022-11-15T18:58:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Have you noticed how leftists never use rational arguments and yet still leftists are in no short supply?
<2022-11-15T18:59:06.000Z> Nou: But that these traits cluster *WAY* less rigidly than these personality types would suggest.
<2022-11-15T18:59:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s because most people think with feelings over logic.
<2022-11-15T19:00:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I suppose, depending on how you interpret it. I interpret it as a general framework and recognition of personality traits that tend to cluster with one another.
<2022-11-15T19:01:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Not super rigid, just an acknowledgement that usually those personality traits are bunded together. Sometimes someone may not have all aspects of it but will still have most. So it’s really just a general idea, like a framework that gives you an idea of what you’re probably looking at but doesn’t demand that every trait abide by what the framework suggesta.
<2022-11-15T19:01:40.000Z> Nou: Honestly, this is all besides the point. Even if it were incontrovertible fact, this framing seemingly has left you despondent about your future at the ripe old age of 22.
<2022-11-15T19:01:50.000Z> Nou: Seems... less than useful.
<2022-11-15T19:02:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, I was despondant before I learned about it.
<2022-11-15T19:02:25.000Z> Nou: Oh. Ok.
<2022-11-15T19:02:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’ve been despondant for a LONG time.
<2022-11-15T19:02:50.000Z> Nou: I'm sorry to hear that.
<2022-11-15T19:02:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Since I was around 11 or 12, with the occasional Whitepilled period but despondant has been my baseline.
<2022-11-15T19:03:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I learned about the 4 temperaments only in the last couple of years.
<2022-11-15T19:03:38.000Z> Nou: Ok.
<2022-11-15T19:05:56.000Z> Nou: My point is, ultimately that dating is a numbers game. So generally, the more granular your search parameters are, the tougher time you are going to have.
<2022-11-15T19:06:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: My current despondant-ness is more due to lack of certainty about my future combined with me having a limited ability to handle what I can’t predict.
<2022-11-15T19:07:09.000Z> Nou: So, if you were to look for traits you find desirable, rather than excluding the temperaments you don't associate with those traits, you would have a wider pool and better chances.
<2022-11-15T19:07:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Plus just general tendencies toward fearfulness. I’m the worry wort type.
<2022-11-15T19:07:45.000Z> Nou: Gotcha. I apologize if I misunderstood then.
<2022-11-15T19:08:05.000Z> Nou: Lol. I could tell.
<2022-11-15T19:08:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I absolutely do look for traits that I find desirable.
<2022-11-15T19:09:05.000Z> Nou: Sure. Everyone does.
<2022-11-15T19:09:44.000Z> Nou: I meant look for them in and of themselves. Rather than using temperament as a stand in for them.
<2022-11-15T19:09:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And the thing is, I really like guts. I like guys who don’t care about what others think, guys who prioritize logic and reason over emotional thinking, guys with the guts to step up and lead.
<2022-11-15T19:10:22.000Z> Nou: Right. Understood.
<2022-11-15T19:11:23.000Z> Nou: My point is just maybe look for those things specifically rather than excluding non-choleric temperaments because you expect not to find those traits there.
<2022-11-15T19:11:37.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The choleric temperament is one that I find attractive, as long as it’s channeled in the right way. I don’t like domineering pricks, but guys who’ll explain things to me and listen to what I have to say, and use logic, data, and reason to determine the best point of action.
<2022-11-15T19:12:07.000Z> Nou: Right, right. Absolutely.
<2022-11-15T19:12:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Melancholic I find attractive because of the logical-ness of it.
<2022-11-15T19:12:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I just happen to find those 2 personality types most attractive.
<2022-11-15T19:13:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Something about logic and guts I really like.
<2022-11-15T19:13:24.000Z> Nou: Lol. Many such cases.
<2022-11-15T19:14:04.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t have a ton of guts. I may not always care about what others think, but I’m a coward overall. I’m obsessed with avoiding risk.
<2022-11-15T19:14:18.000Z> Nou: Really?
<2022-11-15T19:14:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Oh yeah, big time.
<2022-11-15T19:14:30.000Z> Nou: I did not get that read off you.
<2022-11-15T19:15:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m a wuss, I’m just up front about my limited craps to give about what others think of me.
<2022-11-15T19:15:28.000Z> Nou: Fair enough.
<2022-11-15T19:15:58.000Z> Nou: Not that a dearth of courage is necessarily a bad thing in a woman.
<2022-11-15T19:15:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I go through alot of trouble just to minimize risk.
<2022-11-15T19:16:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I know that women are more prone to risk-aversion than men. If we weren’t then our babies would die or something.
<2022-11-15T19:16:55.000Z> Nou: Lol. Sure.
<2022-11-15T19:17:12.000Z> Nou: Plus it's just more attractive.
<2022-11-15T19:17:26.000Z> Nou: Though the two are clearly related.
<2022-11-15T19:17:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: For a woman to be obsessed with minimizing risk?
<2022-11-15T19:17:54.000Z> Nou: Yes. It suggest vulnerability. And vulnerability is hot.
<2022-11-15T19:18:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s a good out-of-context quote haha.
<2022-11-15T19:18:20.000Z> Nou: 🤣
<2022-11-15T19:18:40.000Z> Nou: I think it works in and ot of context.
<2022-11-15T19:19:04.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yeah, but out of context it’d make you sound like a predator or something haha.
<2022-11-15T19:19:19.000Z> Nou: Lol. Fair enough.
<2022-11-15T19:19:43.000Z> Nou: But the point is men like being protectors.
<2022-11-15T19:20:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I know, and when a man actually has the guts to be a protector, that’s attractive.
<2022-11-15T19:20:20.000Z> Nou: Vulnerability presents someone to protect, which fills a psychological need.
<2022-11-15T19:20:34.000Z> Nou: Oh yeah, I'm sure.
<2022-11-15T19:20:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Lotta soy these days though.
<2022-11-15T19:20:50.000Z> Nou: *sigh* Yeah...
<2022-11-15T19:21:27.000Z> Nou: Though, living in CO likely isn't helping that.
<2022-11-15T19:21:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Oh yeah, no doubt.
<2022-11-15T19:21:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’d get the heck outta here if I could.
<2022-11-15T19:22:03.000Z> Nou: Gotta get yourself an old stock Midwestern boy.
<2022-11-15T19:22:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There’s not enough racism here.
<2022-11-15T19:22:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I hate that these people are complacent with mestizo invaders. It really triggers me.
<2022-11-15T19:23:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I gotta go somewhere like Idaho or Montana to find people with self respect and a crap to give about their people.
<2022-11-15T19:24:13.000Z> Nou: So, if you don't mind me asking, what's stopping you from leaving?
<2022-11-15T19:24:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t have a driver’s license and I know better than to travel on public transportation as a lone unarmed female, and my dad doesn’t like the concept of me having a gun.
<2022-11-15T19:24:56.000Z> Nou: Lol. Idaho or Montana are not going to be much better.
<2022-11-15T19:25:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They’re Whiter and more conservative.
<2022-11-15T19:25:25.000Z> Nou: All good reasons. I could see that.
<2022-11-15T19:25:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I already had a negro give me the “I’m gonna rape or rob the living crap out of you”.
<2022-11-15T19:25:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: stare.
<2022-11-15T19:25:54.000Z> Nou: Whiter yes. More conservative... kind of.
<2022-11-15T19:26:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Idaho is not just more conservative, but the folks of North Idaho ar weven activists at keeping the state conservative.
<2022-11-15T19:26:49.000Z> Nou: Most Whites in MT and ID are libertarians who think as long as a mestizo wears a cowboy hat and votes red he's one of them.
<2022-11-15T19:27:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Maybe MT, but North ID has a history of being a stronghold of dissident right folks.
<2022-11-15T19:27:41.000Z> Nou: Alright.
<2022-11-15T19:28:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Have you heard of Red Ice?
<2022-11-15T19:29:23.000Z> Nou: I have, yeah.
<2022-11-15T19:29:31.000Z> Nou: Very familiar.
<2022-11-15T19:29:43.000Z> Nou: Not the biggest fan though.
<2022-11-15T19:29:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They’re Nordic neopagans with sympathy for nat soc-ism, and a hatred of anti-White nonsense. They live in North Idaho. Vincent James also talks about the Great Replacement, and he lives up there. Rebacca of Blonde in the Belly of the Beast lives up there, and she has expressed some sympathy for reactionary ideology.
<2022-11-15T19:30:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They’re also IRL friends.
<2022-11-15T19:30:18.000Z> Nou: Lol.
<2022-11-15T19:30:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Idaho was part of the Northwest Front.
<2022-11-15T19:31:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: North Idaho in particular is a stronghold for tradcaths. One of the largest sedevacantist parishes is up there.
<2022-11-15T19:31:25.000Z> Nou: Yeah, I used to be a fairly regular listener of Blonde's.
<2022-11-15T19:31:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I have been for some time.
<2022-11-15T19:31:45.000Z> Nou: Or at least the show she did with Christiansen.
<2022-11-15T19:32:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I wish that she and Lana would stop dressing so slutty though.
<2022-11-15T19:32:25.000Z> Nou: Lol.
<2022-11-15T19:32:56.000Z> Nou: I've never seen anything hugely objectionable from either of them.
<2022-11-15T19:33:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They wear necklines that are way too deep and sometimes show their shoulders. A pope or 2 forbade that.
<2022-11-15T19:34:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://motherofgodlibrary.org/2021/08/02/a-papal-decree-concerning-modesty-pope-pius-xi-1930/
<2022-11-15T19:34:46.000Z> Nou: Fair enough. Not for me to police other mens' wives wardrobes though.
<2022-11-15T19:35:13.000Z> Nou: Yes, I'm familiar. Thank you.
<2022-11-15T19:35:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion is a language, you know.
<2022-11-15T19:35:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: People speak it and yet don’t always realize it.
<2022-11-15T19:36:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I actually wrote a thing on this.
<2022-11-15T19:36:05.000Z> Nou: Yes, I agree.
<2022-11-15T19:36:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A woman who dresses in pants says that she’s ok with feminism.
<2022-11-15T19:36:47.000Z> Nou: And if I were married to either, I'd probably have something to say about how they dress.
<2022-11-15T19:37:09.000Z> Nou: Very true.
<2022-11-15T19:37:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A woman who shows enough skin says that she’s ok with feminism and sexual liberation.
<2022-11-15T19:38:04.000Z> Nou: Also true.
<2022-11-15T19:38:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s a common fallacy, held by even a priest I know, that if something isn’t seen as explictly sexual then it’s ok to wear.
<2022-11-15T19:38:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Even if the culture is oversexualized.
<2022-11-15T19:39:27.000Z> Nou: Such is the way of things.
<2022-11-15T19:39:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women wear pants and show alot of skin because the culture is oversexualized and pro-feminist; oversexualization and feminism are viewed as ok and as the norm.
<2022-11-15T19:39:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Naturally, fashion reflects that.
<2022-11-15T19:39:56.000Z> Nou: Absolutely.
<2022-11-15T19:40:04.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Same reason why Islamic women wear a hijab - they have Islamic values and as such they dress accordingly.
<2022-11-15T19:41:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So modern Western fashion is absolutely inmodest and women wearing pants in Western culture is crossdressing.
<2022-11-15T19:41:07.000Z> Nou: Indeed.
<2022-11-15T19:42:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In some cultures, like the Inuits, pants are part of the traditional female dress and thus are not crossdressing as long as its a style that is part of their traditional female dress.
<2022-11-15T19:42:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Not menswear styles.
<2022-11-15T19:42:34.000Z> Nou: Right.
<2022-11-15T19:43:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: How disgusting that people try to deny this and weasel their way around it, especially sedevacantist priests of all people.
<2022-11-15T19:43:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s like when Americanism infected the church and in fact I see signs that Americanism has made a comeback.
<2022-11-15T19:44:09.000Z> Nou: I suspect the intent is not to weasel.
<2022-11-15T19:44:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It absolutely is.
<2022-11-15T19:44:39.000Z> Nou: Lol. Comeback? It never went anywhere.
<2022-11-15T19:44:52.000Z> Nou: Ok.
<2022-11-15T19:44:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: that side of the contest priest who I just mentioned actually said himself that basically because times have changed and women embrace styles that previously were seen as a modest and women wear pants it’s fine because that’s normal and it’s not really seeing is like sexual or cross-dressing anymore.
<2022-11-15T19:45:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: “Side of contest” should be “sedevacantist”. Dang phone…
<2022-11-15T19:46:04.000Z> Nou: Yes. That's not necessarily weaseling. As you said, fashion is a language, and languages change over time.
<2022-11-15T19:46:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And “as a modest” should be “as immodest”. I hate when my phone does this.
<2022-11-15T19:46:55.000Z> Nou: The intent of the average woman who wears pants is not to dress as a man. Women and men clearly have very different styles of pants.
<2022-11-15T19:47:14.000Z> Nou: So while they are wrong, they're not trying to weasel.
<2022-11-15T19:47:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It is weaseling because it’s basically saying that “Normal is ok; we should accept subversion and embrace it”.
<2022-11-15T19:48:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fornication is normal.
<2022-11-15T19:48:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: but that doesn’t make it oj.
<2022-11-15T19:48:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Taking God’s name in vain is normal but that doesn’t make it ok.
<2022-11-15T19:48:30.000Z> Nou: Ok. You ever seen someone try to use the traditional definition of gay? Ol"Of course I'm gay, I'm very happy."
<2022-11-15T19:48:39.000Z> Nou: They just look dumb.
<2022-11-15T19:48:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Language may change over time, but fashion doesn’t change like the vernacular does.
<2022-11-15T19:49:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion is more like a cross between a language and a mirror.
<2022-11-15T19:49:36.000Z> Nou: In the same way that trying to revert language is foolhardy, trying to argue fashion (also a language) that is bygone, is foolhardy.
<2022-11-15T19:49:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, by far no.
<2022-11-15T19:50:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion is a mirror. It reflects our values.
<2022-11-15T19:50:26.000Z> Nou: I would like to see women return to wearing skirts, but your line of argumentation for getting there is extremely unlikely to succeed.
<2022-11-15T19:50:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The language aspect of it is the translation of the reflection.
<2022-11-15T19:50:51.000Z> Nou: More so if you are going to accuse those who disagree of weaseling.
<2022-11-15T19:50:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That is, the reflection speaks to others.
<2022-11-15T19:51:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What weasel admits to weaseling?
<2022-11-15T19:51:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Well maybe the jews from time to time, but…
<2022-11-15T19:53:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Many people are just too impulsive and lazy to check that they’re really sending the right messages and doing the right thing. Most people are sheep like that. They soley look at what others tell them to do, and what others do, and then roll with it.
<2022-11-15T19:53:22.000Z> Nou: To say that fashion doesn't change like vocabulary is just on its face incorrect. If I wear to wear the style of the 1700's I would stand out every bit as much as if I used the lexicon of the 1700's.
<2022-11-15T19:53:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Or, if they do try to check, they do it half-heartedly, cherry-picking what they check instead of actually committing to it.
<2022-11-15T19:53:53.000Z> Nou: That's true.
<2022-11-15T19:54:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion trends change.
<2022-11-15T19:54:11.000Z> Nou: Agreed.
<2022-11-15T19:54:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But the morality of fashion does not.
<2022-11-15T19:54:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Just because it’s common for women to wear pants and dress like a whore does not make it any less crossdressing ans dressing like a whore, respectively.
<2022-11-15T19:55:05.000Z> Nou: Sure.
<2022-11-15T19:55:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The nature of fashion does not change, only the trends change.
<2022-11-15T19:55:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And the trends usually suck anyway.
<2022-11-15T19:55:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Trends in/of themselves suck.
<2022-11-15T19:55:35.000Z> Nou: Which is why I gave more pushback on the pants than the immodesty.
<2022-11-15T19:55:58.000Z> Nou: One can absolutely dress modestly with current styles.
<2022-11-15T19:56:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Why bother with something so temporary as a trend? Where is the forethought? Are we mentally retarded negroes or something?
<2022-11-15T19:57:10.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I know, especially if one goes for more preppy styles, elegant style, or some cottagecore-ish styles.
<2022-11-15T19:57:52.000Z> Nou: Ok, so since fashion apparently never changes, we're men who wore tunics (essentially dresses) cross dressing? Or and men who don't wear dresses cross dressing now?
<2022-11-15T19:58:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Men didn’t wear dresses, they wore somewhat similar styles in some cases but not really a dress.
<2022-11-15T19:58:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Men wearing dresses is crossdressing.
<2022-11-15T19:59:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Not wearing dresses, as a dude, is fine and it should be the case.
<2022-11-15T19:59:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Or like a Scottish guy wearing a kilt, that’s not crossdressing because it’s a traditional menswear garment in Scottish fashion.
<2022-11-15T20:00:27.000Z> Nou: So men should wear things very similar to dresses now?
<2022-11-15T20:00:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If it’s traditionally menswear, they can.
<2022-11-15T20:00:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But pants were made as menswear.
<2022-11-15T20:01:20.000Z> Nou: What about stockinged? Should mean wear stockings?
<2022-11-15T20:02:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Pants were made as menswear. Women wear them as a result of feminism. Feminism is so engrained in Western culture that to question it (at least 1st and 2nd wave), that women dress accordingly and hence wear pants.
<2022-11-15T20:02:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The question first and second wave feminism is viewed as odd at best and at worst if it’s a guy doing it it’ll be viewed as questionable or if it’s a girl doing it then she’ll be viewed as self hating are crazy.
<2022-11-15T20:03:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: As for the stocking thing, if the stockings are traditionally menswear then yes it’s fine for a man to wear them.
<2022-11-15T20:03:43.000Z> Nou: I understand how it came into being. Just like I understand how the use of "gay" was stolen. But pretending these things didn't happen just because you know why they happened is absurd.
<2022-11-15T20:04:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: and the thing is fashion only reflects the values of the wearer and or their society but it also promotes those values as well in a very subtle and implicit way which is why women wearing pants and dressing like horrors was normalized with the feminism and sexual liberation movements.
<2022-11-15T20:04:47.000Z> Nou: Lol. So you would be willing to see men in dresses and tights just to defend the laughable position that fashion never changes?
<2022-11-15T20:04:50.000Z> Nou: 🤣
<2022-11-15T20:05:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If it’s a traditional menswear style, then yes.
<2022-11-15T20:05:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So it’s not just about how it came into being it’s also about what it promotes. Fashion promotes the values of its origins.
<2022-11-15T20:05:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s a symbol.
<2022-11-15T20:06:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women wearing pants symbolizes feminism. It both reflects feminism and promotes it.
<2022-11-15T20:07:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not like it’s just an old shell that used to represent something but has since moved on. It actually promotes the values of its origin.
<2022-11-15T20:07:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It normalizes those values/
<2022-11-15T20:08:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s sort of like a propaganda technique, like TV.
<2022-11-15T20:10:14.000Z> Nou: Women wearing pants does not symbolize feminism. It simply doesn't. Language is ultimately a team sport. And if no one accepts your esoteric interpretation of a symbol it can't be rightfully said to symbolize that.
<2022-11-15T20:12:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It truly does, but most people don’t know about it, like how TV literally changes your brain waves and brain washes you and you don’r know it.
<2022-11-15T20:12:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s a level of awareness that most people lack.
<2022-11-15T20:12:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Very, very similar to how TV works.
<2022-11-15T20:13:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: People will deny the TV indoctrination thing, and yet it’s actually statistically observable.
<2022-11-15T20:13:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: James Corbett has talked about how TV literally brainwashes people.
<2022-11-15T20:14:19.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Lack of awareness does not indicate that something does not happen, only that one is not aware of it.
<2022-11-15T20:17:31.000Z> Nou: You are pretending that symbols have meaning outside of their interpretation. Which is just silly.
<2022-11-15T20:18:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Under this logic, a woman showing cleavage or whatever is fine because it’s not explicitly sexual. After all, everyone does it.
<2022-11-15T20:19:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t think you see the subtlties of the human mind and how strongly human behavior is affected by subconscious things.
<2022-11-15T20:19:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I can see it as an outside observer because I’m so lonely all the tine.
<2022-11-15T20:22:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A woman may wear pants but not consciously know why. She only does it because everyone else does. She doesn’t know what she’s doing. And likewise, someone watching The Simpsons may not really see the meaning of a joke that craps on conservative values; after all it’s just a joke, right? Well, those jokes contributed to wider acceptance of liberal values.
<2022-11-15T20:22:30.000Z> Nou: Nope. Those two situations are not remotely analogous. For the reason that you are obviously wrong that fashion does not change, but breasts being innately sexual has gone unchanged.
<2022-11-15T20:23:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion does not change in its effects, it only changes in the popularity of styles. It speaks to people subconsciously.
<2022-11-15T20:24:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t know how to make you realize how deeply the social engineering goes.
<2022-11-15T20:24:40.000Z> Nou: A. The assertion that fashion does not change is laughably wrong.
<2022-11-15T20:25:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion STYLES change, but the MEANING and EFFECTS of fashion do not.
<2022-11-15T20:25:32.000Z> Nou: B. There are literally thousands of counterfactuals to your claim that there is some kind of Platonic symbolism to clothes.
<2022-11-15T20:26:17.000Z> Nou: No one thinks the hacker group Anonymous supports Catholic monarchies just because they wear Fawkes masks.
<2022-11-15T20:28:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Most women have a warped view of femininity. They think that women should try to be like men. Hence, they dress accordingly. A minority of women objects to feminism in some way, and yet because they are not aware of the nature of fashion they dress like a feminist anyway.
<2022-11-15T20:28:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: With an androgynous gender-bending society like this, common fashion will be androgynous and gender-bending because most people are just a bunch of sheep.
<2022-11-15T20:28:48.000Z> Nou: I think your frustration hear is coming from assuming I am not fully aware of the effects of social engineering.
<2022-11-15T20:29:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Most people don’t realize what they’re doing, what it means, why they do it. They think that they do it for one reason or another, that they chose to, when in many instances it’s just out of sheepish instincts.
<2022-11-15T20:30:01.000Z> Nou: Yes. Again, I agree that women dressing more femininely and traditionally would be a good thing. And I think that should be promoted.
<2022-11-15T20:30:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They’re not going to do that until societal values change toward more traditional values
<2022-11-15T20:30:59.000Z> Nou: But you have said you would support men dressing like women in order to obstinately cling to a position that is just wrong on its face.
<2022-11-15T20:31:26.000Z> Nou: Yeah, we absolutely agree on that.
<2022-11-15T20:31:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not dressing like women for a man to wear a traditional menswear style.
<2022-11-15T20:32:25.000Z> Nou: To wear a dress and stockings is absolutely to dress like a woman.
<2022-11-15T20:33:11.000Z> Nou attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/9213cee89dee22b08c5f19ef4b9bd3b3d51e981cdb92500b9a7ca4c0b1eef156.jpg
<2022-11-15T20:33:24.000Z> Nou: Is she dressed like a man or a woman?
<2022-11-15T20:34:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If it’s an actual dress, yes. If it’s not a dress but a garment of similar construction but traditionally menswear, no. Stockings aren’t necessarily just womenswear, they actually are a form of traditional menswear in at least some styles.
<2022-11-15T20:35:38.000Z> Nou: I literally searched "tunic and stockings" both of which you said it was acceptable for men to wear.
<2022-11-15T20:36:26.000Z> Nou: So either that is a man's outfit, something you would be comfortable around a man wearing it, or you are wrong and fashion changes.
<2022-11-15T20:36:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That shirt is definitely not a feminine style, and the stockings look like a sluttier version of pantaloons (the tight-fitting menswear, not bloomers).
<2022-11-15T20:37:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Basically take menswear and make it more revealing. Then pass it off as womens’ fashion. Those stockings in a nutshell.
<2022-11-15T20:38:09.000Z> Nou: Ok. So you think it would be perfectly acceptable for a man to wear that outfit.
<2022-11-15T20:38:14.000Z> Nou: 🤣🤣🤣
<2022-11-15T20:38:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If he wore a less transparent material on the stockings then it could be. I wouldn’t wanna see his junk.
<2022-11-15T20:39:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The shoes kinda remind me of 1860s womenswear but not as high.
<2022-11-15T20:40:16.000Z> Nou: Lol. Alright. Well, congratulations. You have successfully advocated for men to crossdress in an attempt to wage a wat against crossdressing.
<2022-11-15T20:41:19.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Taking menswear and making it pink doesn’t make it any less menswear. It just makes it look like a mutant androgynous mess.
<2022-11-15T20:41:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s another thing.
<2022-11-15T20:42:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: These androgynous, masculine styles are inoculated with small details to make it seem like it’s some sort of new feminine thing, when in reality it’s just a social engineering tool and is not ok for a woman to wear. Heck, no one should wear it.
<2022-11-15T20:43:35.000Z> Nou: If a man came near my family wearing that outfit, I would beat the crap out of him, because he'd obviouslybe a pervert. It has nothing to do with the color pink.
<2022-11-15T20:44:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You don’t get it.
<2022-11-15T20:44:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not true womens’ wear, it’s just menswear slightly modified in some aspects to look like womenswear.
<2022-11-15T20:45:11.000Z> Nou: You are literally supporting male crossdressing to try and artistically stick to an inane point. And you don't even need that point. Because in addition to being untrue, it does nothing for your position.
<2022-11-15T20:45:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What?
<2022-11-15T20:46:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Modern womens’ fashion is just a load of menswear altered to fit a woman, and and sometimes with small details modified to give the illusion of being true womenswear. The result is an androgynous mess that is suited to neither men or women but which may lean towards being more for men.
<2022-11-15T20:47:27.000Z> Nou: That outfit is clearly a woman's outfit. And you are saying you would be OK with a man wearing it.
<2022-11-15T20:47:38.000Z> Nou: That is completely absurd.
<2022-11-15T20:47:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women should wear womens’ clothes and men should wear mens’ clothes. It is not moral to add lace or whatever other petty detail to menswear and pass it off as womenswear.
<2022-11-15T20:48:10.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It is not proper womenswear, it is just accepted because androgyny is valued in this degenerate culture.
<2022-11-15T20:48:35.000Z> Nou: Again, I agree. I like it when women wear skirts or dresses.
<2022-11-15T20:48:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You just wait - soon men will be wearing dresses and you’ll say “Oh well, I guess that dresses are for men now”.
<2022-11-15T20:49:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sure right now it’s viewed as not ok, but you just wait a decade or 2.
<2022-11-15T20:49:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: ”It’s menswear now because it was altered to fit male shoulders!”
<2022-11-15T20:49:54.000Z> Nou: You could have just said that, but in trying to justify it you took the laughable position that fashion does not change. Which means defending the idea that the picture I posted is of men's wear.
<2022-11-15T20:49:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That woman’s outfit looks like a man who is trying to look like a woman.
<2022-11-15T20:50:19.000Z> Nou: Lol. Ok then.
<2022-11-15T20:50:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You have been missing my point.
<2022-11-15T20:50:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not true womenswear to just take menswear and add some frills or whatever.
<2022-11-15T20:51:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s more like an effeminate version of menswear. Definitely not feminine, but would look odd on a man.
<2022-11-15T20:51:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Do you see now?
<2022-11-15T20:53:43.000Z> Nou: The issue is, because human bodies are roughly the same, there are only so many configurations of cloth that can exist as clothes.
<2022-11-15T20:53:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Fashion’s nature does not change, even if popularity of styles may. Women wear mens’ clothes, oftentimes with some sort of minor detail change like frills to make it appeal to women while making it look weird on a man; the core of it is for men, even the details changed to look questionable on a man; it’s modified menswear.
<2022-11-15T20:54:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, that’s not the issue.
<2022-11-15T20:54:49.000Z> Nou: If you say any article of clothing that looks vaguely like something men wore at some point is men's clothing, then women would need to be naked at all times.
<2022-11-15T20:55:05.000Z> Nou: Your position is just lunacy.
<2022-11-15T20:55:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s the purpose of the garment combined with its origins.
<2022-11-15T20:56:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women have worn blouses going back to medieval times, but it was not fashionable until the Gibson Girl era.
<2022-11-15T20:56:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Men had been wearing shirts for a while prior to the Gibson Girl era.
<2022-11-15T20:56:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There was a difference in style and intention between the 2.
<2022-11-15T20:57:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: For women, blouses were more of a practical garment. They were loose, which is why they got the name “blouse”.
<2022-11-15T20:57:33.000Z> Nou: Yes. Which is precisely true for women's pants.
<2022-11-15T20:58:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There are no womens’ pants in Western culture, just menswear that is sometimes frilled up or made in a certain color to look more feminine.
<2022-11-15T20:58:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But underneath the frills or whatever, it’s really just an item of menswear.
<2022-11-15T20:59:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The frills would make it look questionable on a man, but the pants themselves are not a womens’ garment either.
<2022-11-15T20:59:59.000Z> Nou: Lmao. No.
<2022-11-15T21:00:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There are no real womenswear pants in Western culture, unless you mean something like what was worn in riding rabits beneath the skirt.
<2022-11-15T21:00:40.000Z> Nou: If I were to buy a pair of pants right now, they simply wouldn't fit.
<2022-11-15T21:01:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Altering pants to fit a female body does not make it womenswear, it only makes it an altered menswear garmenr.
<2022-11-15T21:02:04.000Z> Nou: Ok. So then you just don't think women's wear exists.
<2022-11-15T21:02:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: True womens’ fashion cannot be used to socially engineer people into being complacent with feminism or sexual liberation.
<2022-11-15T21:02:22.000Z> Nou: That's an absurd position. But alright.
<2022-11-15T21:02:46.000Z> Nou: Yes. It absolutely can.
<2022-11-15T21:02:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There was rare exceptions to that among the upper classes, historically. But the West as we know it is a Catholic creationS
<2022-11-15T21:03:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The Catholic Church built Western Civilization.
<2022-11-15T21:04:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women may show their upper arms or whatever as eveningwear, but you didn’t see much of this, if any, among the commoners.
<2022-11-15T21:04:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The standard womens’ fashions aligned with what Pope Pius XI said is modest.
<2022-11-15T21:04:42.000Z> Nou: Ok. But that has nothing to do with your wrong claim that any garment that looks similar to something a man wore can't be for women.
<2022-11-15T21:05:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It is not true womenswear to be adapting mens’ clothing to be worn on women as a social engineering technique.
<2022-11-15T21:05:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s the point.
<2022-11-15T21:06:06.000Z> Nou: So, you claim to like logical thinking.
<2022-11-15T21:06:59.000Z> Nou: If we turn your argument into a syllogism, we can see that both of your premises are completely unsubstantiated. Making your conclusion unsound.
<2022-11-15T21:07:04.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s just menswear that was all frilled up or had the fit modified or whatever in order to be worn by women. Sure it is not something that should be worn by a man either, but it should not be seen as a style for men or women but for a bonfire.
<2022-11-15T21:07:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s an andryogynous mess, definitely not womenswear but also not for men either.
<2022-11-15T21:08:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s the point.
<2022-11-15T21:08:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And actually, that’s what the point of such fashion is to begin with: to promote androgyny and transgender type stuff.
<2022-11-15T21:08:55.000Z> Nou: Then the point is simply wrong.
<2022-11-15T21:09:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Make women be like men, men be like women, until you can’t distinguish them by anything but stature.
<2022-11-15T21:09:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Not that it’ll even be possible to do that given how fat people have been getting.
<2022-11-15T21:09:53.000Z> Nou: Lmao. That type of outfit existed long before anyone had dreamed up the term "transgender."
<2022-11-15T21:11:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A few decades before.
<2022-11-15T21:11:10.000Z> Nou: So the problem with this most recent claim is it assumes people cannot tell the difference between modern men and women's clothing. Which is empirically false.
<2022-11-15T21:11:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, it doesn’t assume that. You keep missing what I’m trying to say.
<2022-11-15T21:12:08.000Z> Nou: So we have yet another false, and yet another unsubstantiated claim.
<2022-11-15T21:12:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What?
<2022-11-15T21:13:15.000Z> Nou: Yes. It absolutely assumes that. If the clothes are meant to ambiguity, the must necessarily look the same. And they don't.
<2022-11-15T21:13:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: People don’t see the forest for the trees in fashion.
<2022-11-15T21:13:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They think that a little frills, lace, or pink makes a man’s clothes feminine.
<2022-11-15T21:14:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That a man’s clothes can become womens’ clothes with just a little detail.
<2022-11-15T21:14:39.000Z> Nou: Your claim that that women's fashion was meant to support trannyism (before trannyism existed) was asserted with zero evidence.
<2022-11-15T21:15:11.000Z> Nou: Your claim that modern clothing is designed to ambiguate is false.
<2022-11-15T21:15:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Before trannyism existed? The first tranny surgery was performed in the Weimar Republic.
<2022-11-15T21:15:43.000Z> Nou: You said you like logical thinking, so I'm attempting to reason through this.
<2022-11-15T21:16:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What is now seen as typical female fashion is very, very recent.
<2022-11-15T21:16:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Most of it only came into being in the last 100 years - right around when the first tranny surgery was done.
<2022-11-15T21:16:27.000Z> Nou: I'm familiar with the CFSR.
<2022-11-15T21:16:48.000Z> Nou: Women were wearing pants prior to its establishment.
<2022-11-15T21:16:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The Bloomer costume was a predessor though…
<2022-11-15T21:17:29.000Z> Nou: So, as I said, you still have not substantiated that it was trying to create trannys before trannyism existed.
<2022-11-15T21:17:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Ok, I think I see.
<2022-11-15T21:18:10.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: We must not be on the same page.
<2022-11-15T21:18:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So first of all, let’s establish what a tranny is because there are different levels of trannyism.
<2022-11-15T21:18:59.000Z> Nou: Sure.
<2022-11-15T21:20:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: When I say “tranny”, I don’t strictly mean people who got the surgery or who actually believe that they’re the opposite sex from their biological sex; but more like drag queens and stuff like that.
<2022-11-15T21:20:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Most transgenders don’t even bother with the surgery.
<2022-11-15T21:21:19.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So modern womens’ fashion is meant to be gender-bending in order to blur the lines between masculine and feminine.
<2022-11-15T21:21:35.000Z> Nou: Ok, good. I agree. I also consider transvestites trannys. 
<2022-11-15T21:22:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: This should not be viewed as feminine fashion as the purpose is not to be womenswear but to encourage androgyny.
<2022-11-15T21:22:22.000Z> Nou: That is a massive leap, and at a minimum unsubstantiated.
<2022-11-15T21:22:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The wearers would not consciously be trying to crossdress.
<2022-11-15T21:22:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Rather they’re lured into it unsuspectingly.
<2022-11-15T21:22:48.000Z> Nou: But in reality not only unsubstantiated but empirically wrong.
<2022-11-15T21:22:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s not meant to be feminine clothing.
<2022-11-15T21:23:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s meant to be androgynous.
<2022-11-15T21:23:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But men and women have different body types.
<2022-11-15T21:23:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So in order to fit someone, it does have to conform to the body type of their biological sex.
<2022-11-15T21:23:43.000Z> Nou: Once again, completely unsubstantiated and very obviously contradicted by the facts.
<2022-11-15T21:23:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What are you talking about?
<2022-11-15T21:24:21.000Z> Nou: You keep asserting this without so much as an attempt to substantiate.
<2022-11-15T21:24:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A garment which is not made to be feminine but to be androgynous and blur the line of masculine and feminine should not be viewed as womenswear.
<2022-11-15T21:25:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: True womenswear is meant to be feminine.
<2022-11-15T21:25:04.000Z> Nou: You cannot just say "x is the purpose of y" with no evidence.
<2022-11-15T21:25:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Just look into the history or it.
<2022-11-15T21:25:27.000Z> Nou: Especially when you has never once been used for x.
<2022-11-15T21:25:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You said that you were aware of it so I thought that I didn’t have to tell you.
<2022-11-15T21:26:14.000Z> Nou: Done. There is literally zero evidence for what you are claiming.
<2022-11-15T21:26:42.000Z> Nou: I am aware of Hirschfeld.
<2022-11-15T21:26:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://kirrinfinch.com/blogs/news/history-of-women-wearing-mens-clothing
<2022-11-15T21:27:16.000Z> Nou: But not of these insane illogical leaps you are making based only on him existing.
<2022-11-15T21:27:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There is evidence for it if you just read history and know a thing or 2 about social engineering.
<2022-11-15T21:27:59.000Z> Nou: I do both. And I have never seen anything remotely close to what you are describing.
<2022-11-15T21:29:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You think that women just chose to wear pants without jewish interference?
<2022-11-15T21:29:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You think that just because something becomes normal that it stops being what it is?
<2022-11-15T21:29:51.000Z> Nou: That link does not say what you claim it does.
<2022-11-15T21:30:04.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women wore pants as a feminist thing, then feminism got engrained in the culture and now it’s normal.
<2022-11-15T21:30:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: and you think that because it’s normal it’s not crossdressing?
<2022-11-15T21:30:47.000Z> Nou: And yes. I know for a fact that women chose to wear pants without jewish influence, and continue to.
<2022-11-15T21:31:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/learn/histories/women-in-history/experiments-in-gender/
<2022-11-15T21:31:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It’s all about genderbending but has gotren so normal that no one really realizes it anymore.
<2022-11-15T21:31:42.000Z> Nou: I think women wearing clothes designed for women is not crossdressing. Obviously.
<2022-11-15T21:32:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The second link is more detailed and specific than the first one.
<2022-11-15T21:33:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But the thing is, it wasn’t really designed for women. It was designed for men and then modified for women. It’s just modified menswear.
<2022-11-15T21:34:31.000Z> Nou: Both of these links say they adopted them for practical reasons, which is the opposite of what you claimed.
<2022-11-15T21:34:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Now a blouse, at least in the traditional sense, that was designed for women, and hence it is womenswear.
<2022-11-15T21:34:50.000Z> Nou: That's false.
<2022-11-15T21:34:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Practical reasons was an excuse to normalize it.
<2022-11-15T21:35:08.000Z> Nou: Men worse blouses before women did.
<2022-11-15T21:35:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But if you looked further down, you’ll see that it was for gender bending.
<2022-11-15T21:35:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Men wore shirts but not blouses.
<2022-11-15T21:35:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sort of like the difference between a skirt and a kilt.
<2022-11-15T21:36:18.000Z> Nou: So, your own sources say it was for reason x, but it actually wasn't and was for reason y...?
<2022-11-15T21:38:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://clements.umich.edu/womens-history-month-women-in-mens-clothing/
<2022-11-15T21:39:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You know, the MSM often hides the truth further down in their articles where they know that most people won’t read
<2022-11-15T21:39:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sometimes the devil is in the detailsZ
<2022-11-15T21:41:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://medium.com/the-collector/the-man-who-put-women-in-mens-clothing-and-changed-the-fashion-world-forever-6e9331994533
<2022-11-15T21:41:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There’s a whole mountain of reading material on the issue.
<2022-11-15T21:44:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That Medium article says that it was indeed intentional for women to start crossdressing and have it be normalized, bragging about it.
<2022-11-15T21:48:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I don’t know what I have to say in order to make you see it. Do you want me to copy and paste the quote from the 3rd article for you?
<2022-11-15T21:54:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Pants are a menswear style. There were made for male dress. Altering them to fit a woman doesn’t make them not menswear as the very nature of the style is for men. To add detail to give it a more feminine look does not make it womenswear but rather gender-bender-wear. This should not be viewed as a style of womens’ clothing but as gender-bending garbage.
<2022-11-15T21:59:22.000Z> Nou: The thing is if they wanted women's clothes to look like men's they'd do that. And they don't.
<2022-11-15T22:20:05.000Z> Nou: >I don’t know what I have to say in order to make you see it. 
<2022-11-15T22:21:10.000Z> Nou: Good question. You'd have to show 1. That the original intent was to look like men 2. that women who do it now intend to look like men 3. anyone who sees a woman in pants thinks of them as a man.
<2022-11-15T22:22:00.000Z> Nou: Of the three you have only *attempted* to demonstrate #1, and did so pretty poorly. 
<2022-11-15T22:52:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: They do that. It’s why women wear pants.
<2022-11-15T22:52:39.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The 2nd and 3rd points are completely irrelevant as I was never trying to claim that.
<2022-11-15T22:53:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I told you that the intent of the wearer is irrelevant, did I not?
<2022-11-15T22:55:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://www.joannalatorre.com/home/2020/3/5/she-wears-the-pants-too
<2022-11-15T22:56:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women wearing pants is accidental-on-part-of-the-wearer crossdressing.
<2022-11-15T22:57:46.000Z> Nou: You did in fact say that. But it was wrong, and it remains wrong.
<2022-11-15T22:58:13.000Z> Nou: Which I demonstrated with my analogy that you never responded to.
<2022-11-15T22:58:42.000Z> Nou: It is literally impossible to "accidentally" cross dress.
<2022-11-15T23:01:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Someone can wear a pentagram necklace without realizing that the pentagram is a Satanic symbol.
<2022-11-15T23:02:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No I didn’t. You’re putting words in my mouth. I referred to people who crossdress at all, knowing or not. Crossdressing means wearing the other sex’s clothing at all, not necessarily doing it on purpose.
<2022-11-15T23:03:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If a person wears a pentagram necklace, they tell the world that they’re a Satanist even if they don’t know what a pentagram symbolizes.
<2022-11-15T23:06:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Likewise, a woman may wear mens’ clothing without realizing it.
<2022-11-15T23:08:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Women wear mens’ clothing without realizing that it’s just mens clothing, sometimes with additions made to make it seem more feminine, but those additions don’t modify the inherently masculine fashion.
<2022-11-15T23:08:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s what I was trying to say. I hope that you understand now.
<2022-11-15T23:09:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The modifications to male style to make it seem more feminine ultimately create a weird genderbender sort of clothing that ultimately is too masculine for a woman and too feminine for a man.
<2022-11-15T23:09:46.000Z> Nou: I don't understand, because it makes no sense.
<2022-11-15T23:11:13.000Z> Nou: Putting aside that you literally cannot accidentally crossdress, your only evidence that clothes designed for, marketed to, and worn exclusively by women are "men's clothes."
<2022-11-15T23:13:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Since when can one not crossdress on accident?
<2022-11-15T23:14:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Those styles were not designed for women though, they were designed for men and them marketed to women.
<2022-11-15T23:15:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Since when is it not possible to crossdress without actively intending on crossdressing?
<2022-11-15T23:27:14.000Z> Nou: Since the phrase was invented?
<2022-11-15T23:28:04.000Z> Nou: And it's just obviously wrong to say that women's pants were designed for men.
<2022-11-15T23:28:46.000Z> Nou: If I were to put on a pair of comparably sized women's pants they wouldn't come close to fitting.
<2022-11-15T23:36:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You’ve heard of Cardinal Siri, right?
<2022-11-15T23:38:12.000Z> Nou: I have, yes.
<2022-11-15T23:38:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It turns out that he spoke on the issue:
<2022-11-15T23:38:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: "When we see a woman in trousers [that is, pants], we should think not so much of her as of all mankind, of what it will be when women will have masculinized themselves for good. Nobody stands to gain by helping to bring about a future age of vagueness, ambiguity, imperfection and, in a word, monstrosities." (Notification Concerning Men's Dress Worn by Women, Cardinal Siri, 1960 A.D.)
<2022-11-15T23:39:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: "The first signs of our late arriving spring indicate this year a certain increase in the use of men's dress by girls and women, even mothers of families. Up until 1959, in Genoa, such dress usually meant the person was a tourist, but now there seems to be a significant number of girls and women from Genoa itself who are choosing, at least on pleasure trips, to wear men's dress [men's trousers - that is, slacks/pants]. The spreading of this behavior obliges us to give serious consideration to the subject, and we ask those to whom this Notification is addressed to kindly give this problem all the attention it deserves, as befits those aware of being answerable to God... The wearing of men's dress by women affects firstly the woman herself, by changing the feminine psychology proper to women; secondly, it affects the woman as wife of her husband, by tending to vitiate relationships between the sexes; thirdly, it affects the woman as mother of her children by harming her dignity in her children's eyes... In truth, the motive impelling women to wear men's dress is always that of imitating, nay, of competing with the man who is considered stronger, less tied down, more independent. This motivation shows clearly that male dress is the visible aid to bringing about a mental attitude of being 'like a man'. Secondly, ever since men have been men, the clothing a person wears conditions, determines and modifies that person's gestures, attitudes and behavior, such that from merely being worn outside, clothing comes to impose a particular frame of mind inside. Then let us add that a woman wearing men's dress always more or less indicates her reacting to her femininity as though it were inferior [to masculinity] when in fact it is only diverse. The perversion of her psychology is clearly evident. These reasons, summing up many more, are enough to warn us how wrongly women are made to think by the wearing of men's dress... Experience teaches us that when woman is de-feminized, defenses are undermined and weakness increases... The changing of feminine psychology does fundamental and - in the long run - irreparable damage to the family, to conjugal fidelity, to human affections and to human society. True, the effects of wearing unsuitable dress are not all to be seen within a short time. But one must think of what is being slowly and insidiously worn down, torn apart, perverted. Is any satisfying reciprocity between husband and wife imaginable, if feminine psychology be changed? Or is any true education of children imaginable, which is so delicate in its procedure, so woven of imponderable factors in which the mother's intuition and instinct play the decisive part in those tender years? What will these women be able to give their children when they will so long have worn trousers that their self-esteem is determined more by their competing with the men than by their functioning as women? Why, we ask, ever since men have been men - or rather since they became civilized - why have men in all times and places been irresistibly borne to differentiate and divide the functions of the two sexes? Do we not have here strict testimony to the recognition by all mankind of a truth and a law above man? To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is be considered a factor, over the long term, in disintegrating human order." (Notification Concerning Men's Dress Worn by Women, Cardinal Siri, 1960)
<2022-11-15T23:43:46.000Z> Nou: Ok, first of all, unless his Eminence was somehow I elected and I missed it, this isn't infallible teaching. It's his opinion. Second of all, it was at the time, pants were exclusively men's clothing. That is no longer the case. Just like when tunics were appropriate for men, they were men's clothing. Now, they are not 
<2022-11-15T23:44:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Honestly, there is reason to believe that he was but we don’t know for sure.
<2022-11-15T23:44:57.000Z> Nou: Was he at the time of these statements?
<2022-11-15T23:45:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There’s evidence that somone was picked as pope in the 1958 election, had accepted the position, and chosen a name, but was coerced into giving up the position of pope.
<2022-11-15T23:46:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Siri was a very likely candidate for that.
<2022-11-15T23:47:00.000Z> Nou: Yes... I've heard. But unless these statements were made after that conclave (they weren't) that has zero bearing on the falibility of these quotes.
<2022-11-15T23:48:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Those statements were made in 1960.
<2022-11-15T23:48:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s a little over a year after the 1958 papal election.
<2022-11-15T23:49:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Plus, knowing Cardinal Siri’s history of being on the conservative side, honestly I think it should be held at a similar level of reverence and belief as Aquinas’ works.
<2022-11-15T23:52:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: This is a great read that discusses the issue of women wearing pants, and it’s actually where I got those quotes from: https://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/catholic_life/modesty_dress.htm
<2022-11-15T23:55:46.000Z> Nou: St. Thomas also didn't teach infallibly.
<2022-11-15T23:57:57.000Z> Nou: And that's fine. I agree, and wish more women would return to wearing dresses and skirts. But there is a wide distinction between what it is best to wear and cross dressing.
<2022-11-15T23:59:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: He was not technically infallible but quite nearly so.
<2022-11-16T00:00:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Plus, Cardinal Siri may have actually been pope for all we know.
<2022-11-16T00:01:12.000Z> Nou: Well, as you know, even if he had been elected that doesn't make every word out of his mouth infallible.
<2022-11-16T00:02:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Pants are menswear passing as womens’ wear, as Cardinal Siri said.
<2022-11-16T00:02:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Or rather, masquerading more accurately.
<2022-11-16T00:03:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Also, this quote from Pope Pius XII is worthy of note as well: "More basically, the immorality of some styles depends in great part on excesses either of immodesty or luxury. An excess of immodesty in fashion involves, in practice, the cut of the garment. The garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt society, but according to the aspirations of a society which prizes the dignity and seriousness of its public attire. It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a people. But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to take: either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and civilization." (Pope Pius XII, "Moral Problems in Fashion Design", 1957)
<2022-11-16T00:06:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The part about how the “garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt society” is particularly noteworthy.
<2022-11-16T00:07:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If we assume that women wearing pants is not crossdressing, then we only do so based on our decadent and already corrupt society; before the decandance and corruption of feminism, it was not viewed as acceptable for women to wear pants (except in some riding habits but even then only underneath a skirt, and especially under a safety skirt).
<2022-11-16T00:27:53.000Z> Nou: Yes. You keep asserting that pants designed for, marketed to, and worn exclusively by women.
<2022-11-16T00:28:23.000Z> Nou: But you also said a dress and pantyhose would be appropriate men's wear.
<2022-11-16T00:28:45.000Z> Nou: Which makes me seriously doubt your judgement on the topic.
<2022-11-16T01:07:45.000Z> Nou: But' again, I would like to see a world where fewer women wear pants.
<2022-11-16T01:09:20.000Z> Nou: I just think a. If you accuse them of cross-dressing the overwhelming majority of women will automatically tune you out. And b. I think it is dishonest to place it on the same level morally as the freaks doing drag queen story time.
<2022-11-16T03:13:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You don’t know that mens’ stocking are a thing?
<2022-11-16T03:15:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://www.gq.com/gallery/men-in-tights-history
<2022-11-16T03:15:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I know that women are emotional creatures and thus you have to be careful about talking to them.
<2022-11-16T03:15:35.000Z> Nou: Yes. Historically. That was the entire point in me bringing it up.
<2022-11-16T03:16:10.000Z> Nou: That's no longer the case.
<2022-11-16T03:16:27.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Stockings aren’t just for women. There are male versions of stockings.
<2022-11-16T03:16:43.000Z> Nou: Lol. You don't seem particularly emotional. You've been going blow for blow just fine.
<2022-11-16T03:16:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I think that they may be restricted to some folk costumes nowadays.
<2022-11-16T03:17:01.000Z> Nou: Though I apologize if I overstepped.
<2022-11-16T03:17:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I’m a butch broad. I can handle a logical debate.
<2022-11-16T03:17:35.000Z> Nou: I have literally never seen that outside of historical costumes.
<2022-11-16T03:17:40.000Z> Nou: Lol. Gross.
<2022-11-16T03:18:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Also, drag queen story time is grooming kids. That’s different from just crossdressing without grooming kids.
<2022-11-16T03:19:34.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Also, there’s a difference between a womens’ dress and dress-like garments that are for men and men only.
<2022-11-16T03:23:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The dress-like garments for men, those are fine for a man to wear. The garments of feminine style that we know as dresses? For a guy to wear that is crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T03:24:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And you know, the most ironic thing is that I’m only butch in character.
<2022-11-16T03:25:10.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Meanwhile, lotsa chicks dress like a guy but still think like a woman with their emotionalness and caring too much about others’ opinions.
<2022-11-16T03:25:52.000Z> Nou: Lol. I was teasing you. I'm sure you're lovely.
<2022-11-16T03:26:55.000Z> Nou: But, if dresses are OK for men, but clearly feminine pants are not ok for women, your distinctions are entirely arbitrary and meaningless.
<2022-11-16T03:29:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, dresses are not ok for men.
<2022-11-16T03:29:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But a man may wear a toga and that’s fine.
<2022-11-16T03:29:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In structure it resembles a dress, but it is not.
<2022-11-16T03:29:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Ya see what I mean?
<2022-11-16T03:30:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: A toga is traditionally menswear, so even though the structure is similar to that of a dress, it’s fine for a man to wear.
<2022-11-16T03:31:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s an example.
<2022-11-16T03:31:51.000Z> Nou: I genuinely don't. A male tunic and a female tunic are much more similar in form and function than male and female pants.
<2022-11-16T03:31:51.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You are right that it would be a ridiculous double standard if I thought that it’s ok for a man to wear a dress but not for women to wear pants.
<2022-11-16T03:35:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There was the occasional unisex fashion in history, like capes. Pants, on the other hand, are menswear that was inteoduced into the femalw wardrobe in order to masculinize women and make others view/treat them more like a man.
<2022-11-16T03:36:20.000Z> Nou: Well, so again. I don't understand how wearing a garment that is identical for both sexes is less ambiguating than garments that vastly different for the sexes.
<2022-11-16T03:37:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The difference is that tunics were always unisex fashion.
<2022-11-16T03:37:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Capes were always unisex fashion.
<2022-11-16T03:37:27.000Z> Nou: Have you ever viewed a woman as a man because she was wearing pants?
<2022-11-16T03:38:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Obviously there’s height differences and all, but seriously consider what Cardinal Siri said.
<2022-11-16T03:38:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: He summed up why women shouldn’t wear pants quite well.
<2022-11-16T03:39:53.000Z> Nou: But, again, what his Eminence said only holds if fashion remains entirely static. Which we know it does not.
<2022-11-16T03:40:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: As Pope Pius XII said, we are not to judge fashions based on the views and acceptibility of/in a society that is already corrupt.
<2022-11-16T03:41:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: We are to judge them based on the views and acceptibility of a Godly society, and in such a society it’d be viewed as crossdressing for a woman to wear pants.
<2022-11-16T03:42:33.000Z> Nou: Yes. And His Holiness was of course correct.
<2022-11-16T03:43:48.000Z> Nou: However, if a woman has an option, that preserves her modesty, that is within the fashion of the time, it's safe to assume that was not what he was referring to.
<2022-11-16T03:44:28.000Z> Nou: You say that, but you haven't demonstrated it.
<2022-11-16T03:46:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: To say that what Cardinal Siri said does not hold eminence because trends have changed is like saying that fornicarion is fine because it’s widely accepted in the current era.
<2022-11-16T03:47:48.000Z> Nou: It would be. If there were Scriptural condemnations of wearing pants specifically.
<2022-11-16T03:48:01.000Z> Nou: Which, of course, there are not.
<2022-11-16T03:50:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Crossdressing does not stop being crossdressing just because it’s normal.
<2022-11-16T03:51:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Otherwise, morality is subjective to at least some extent, and that’s a heresy.
<2022-11-16T03:51:55.000Z> Nou: But it does stop being cross dressing if the clothes in question are no longer the exclusive domain of the other sex.
<2022-11-16T03:52:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No it doesn’t.
<2022-11-16T03:52:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If crossdressing occurs commonly in a society, it’s still crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T03:53:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Just like sodomy doesn’t stop being a perversion just because it’s widely accepted.
<2022-11-16T03:55:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Definitely read this in its entirety: https://www.olrl.org/virtues/pants.shtml
<2022-11-16T03:56:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Here’s a great excerpt from it: In truth, the motive impelling women to wear men's dress is always that of imitating, nay, of competing with, the man who is considered stronger, less tied down, more independent.  This motivation shows clearly that male dress is the visible aid to bringing about a mental attitude of being "like a man."
<2022-11-16T03:57:23.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And that is absolutely true. Modern women do want to be like men, they want to compete with men, which is why they wear pants. After all, to say that a woman should not wear pants would be “misogynistic”.
<2022-11-16T03:57:36.000Z> Nou: So according to you, there is literally no standard by which clothing is male or female except your personal preferences?
<2022-11-16T04:02:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, the standard is that if the clothing was creates as a mens’ style, it’s menswear; if it was originally meant as a womens’ style, then it’s womenswear.
<2022-11-16T04:03:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So pants, being originally menswear, is crossdressing when worn by women. It’d likewise be crossdressing for a man to wear a dress because dresses were made as female clothing.
<2022-11-16T04:03:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Simple, right?
<2022-11-16T04:16:59.000Z> Nou: Except it's not.
<2022-11-16T04:17:08.000Z> Nou: That excludes blouses.
<2022-11-16T04:17:17.000Z> Nou: And stockings.
<2022-11-16T04:17:24.000Z> Nou: And tunics.
<2022-11-16T04:17:58.000Z> Nou: As I said earlier, that would mean women are denied nearly every form of clothing.
<2022-11-16T04:37:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Blouses were made originally for women  though, and were never unisex.
<2022-11-16T04:37:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If a garment was originally a unisex style, like capes for instance, then either sex may wear it without crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T04:39:43.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So if a fashion is made for originally men rather than women, for women to wear it is crossdressing; if something was made originally for women then for a woman to wear it is crossdressing. If, however, the garment has its origins as unisex wear, then for either sex to wear it is not crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T04:40:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So if it was originally made as something just for 1 sex, then for the other to wear it is crossdressing, whereas if it was originally for both sexes then either sex may wear it without crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T05:14:28.000Z> Nou: But blouses were not originally made for women. They were originally loose fitting work shirts, like smocks.
<2022-11-16T05:15:03.000Z> Nou: Which is why the military still refer to their uniform jackets as blouses.
<2022-11-16T05:17:05.000Z> Nou: And, as previously mentioned, your standard rules out both stockings and tunics for women.
<2022-11-16T05:26:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The wors “blouse” historically has been interchanged with “shirt”, which may lead to confusion about what it even is. “Blouse” refers to the female garment. 
<2022-11-16T05:28:47.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Now as for hoisery, like capes it was a unisex garment.
<2022-11-16T05:29:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: From the beginning, it was unisex.
<2022-11-16T05:33:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There may have been particular varieties of hoisery that were only for either men or women in particular. My standard does not forbid women from wearing clothes that are either originally for women and/or which are originally for both sexes.
<2022-11-16T05:34:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Tunics were a unisex garment with varieties that were originally exclusively for women.
<2022-11-16T05:39:13.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Unisex clothing can end up branching out into varieties that are originally for only 1 of the sexes, and when this happens then if the other sex wears it then it’s crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T13:25:30.000Z> Nou: Discussing the etymology of the word blouse:
<2022-11-16T13:25:34.000Z> Nou: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blouse#%3A%7E%3Atext%3D7_External_links-%2CEtymology%2C%22for_a_young_lady.%22?wprov=sfla1
<2022-11-16T13:26:36.000Z> Nou: As I said, it started as a male garment, and is still used for male garments in specific contexts.
<2022-11-16T13:27:49.000Z> Nou: Hosiery as exclusively for men:
<2022-11-16T13:27:54.000Z> Nou: azyaamode.com/en/did-you-know-hellip-tights-were-originally-worn-by-men-
<2022-11-16T13:28:36.000Z> Nou: Which makes sense, since women exposing their legs would have been a huge taboo during the time.
<2022-11-16T14:47:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There was hoisery for women in - form that was basically a variety a type of socks. You think that ladies would want to go barefoot in the boots that they used to tend the farm? Those boots would smell awful!
<2022-11-16T14:50:17.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Perhaps “blouse” can be used to refer to a male shirt in particular contexts, although that usage is definitely not considered to be the norm these days.
<2022-11-16T15:00:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://viennemilano.com/blogs/tights/history-of-pantyhose
<2022-11-16T15:29:35.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Tights may have been exclusively for men, but socks were a unisex item. Both are forms of hoisery. 
<2022-11-16T15:38:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: https://startupfashion.com/fashion-archives-a-look-at-the-history-of-tights/
<2022-11-16T19:49:21.000Z> Nou: "Definitely not considered the norm these days"
<2022-11-16T19:49:47.000Z> Nou: Oh, so the current norm is relevant all of a sudden?
<2022-11-16T19:54:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Huh?
<2022-11-16T19:54:37.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I just said that to use “blouse” to refer to a mens’ shirt is not common.
<2022-11-16T19:55:56.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I didn’t provide any commentary on whether that was good or bad, I just mentioned that it’s unusual nowadays. What’s wrong with that?
<2022-11-16T20:37:25.000Z> Nou: Nothing's wrong with it. I am just pointing out that you seem to be selectively applying an arbitrary standard based on when it benefits you.
<2022-11-16T21:39:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: How so?
<2022-11-16T21:40:16.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I said that just because something is common doesn't mean it's ok. It doesn't always mean something is not ok. You have to assess each thing individually to know whether it's good or bad.
<2022-11-16T21:40:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It's standard speech to take God's name in vain, but that's not ok.
<2022-11-16T21:42:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It's common for people to pee in the shower. This is morally neutral.
<2022-11-16T21:55:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What's so arbitrary about that?
<2022-11-16T22:12:36.000Z> Nou: Because you are accusing something like 99% of women of doing something explicitly prohibited by Scripture based on a standard that is entirely your subjective standard and that you won't even apply consistently.
<2022-11-16T22:13:37.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: How is it subjective? Women wearing mens' clothing is crossdressing, no matter how "normal" it is.
<2022-11-16T22:14:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Where is the inconsistency in my applying of that standard?
<2022-11-16T22:14:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If anything, you're the one being subjective because you think that if enough women wear male clothing then it stops being crossdressing.
<2022-11-16T22:15:48.000Z> Nou: Because the clothes that have changed sexes, like the blouse, you decide whether it is women's clothing or not entirely based on whether you like it or not.
<2022-11-16T22:16:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The blouse never changed sexes. The word "blouse" just changed to mean the female garment.
<2022-11-16T22:16:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The garment itself originally was worn by both men and women.
<2022-11-16T22:17:06.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It was meant for men and women.
<2022-11-16T22:17:25.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But for some reason, the word "blouse" changed definitions to mean the female blouse.
<2022-11-16T22:19:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So again, where's the subjectivity here, short of you thinking that if enough women wear male clothes then it stops being crossdressing?
<2022-11-16T22:30:16.000Z> Nou: But what you're saying isn't true. I provided you the source on this. The blouse was originally a worker's garment, which was adopted by women and the style was altered to fit them.
<2022-11-16T22:30:34.000Z> Nou: Which is an identical evolution to pants.
<2022-11-16T22:33:28.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No, blouses predate women working, as shown by the fact that they're part of the folk costume of the alps.
<2022-11-16T22:37:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Blouses got more fashionable in the Gibson Girl era, whereas before they were unfashionable but not uncommon.
<2022-11-16T22:42:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: See this?: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Page043_Bauer_vom_St.GilgenSee_Salzburgerin_Landm%C3%A4dchen_vom_Fuschlsee.jpg
<2022-11-16T22:43:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The woman on the right is wearing a dirndl: a blouse and skirt with an apron on top and a bodice.
<2022-11-16T22:44:40.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: There's actually different variations of dirndls depending on region and supposedly even village, but female dirndls tend to be big on blouses.
<2022-11-16T22:45:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The male equivalent of a dirndl is called, I think leiderhosen or something like that.
<2022-11-16T23:08:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Also, you never gave any link for blouses having been first male fashion and then female fashion.
<2022-11-16T23:09:31.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What you did give was a link about the etymology of "blouse" rather than the history of the garment.
<2022-11-17T13:23:27.000Z> Nou: "Originally referring to the blue blouse worn by French workmen,"
<2022-11-17T13:23:41.000Z> Nou: Directly from the provided link.
<2022-11-17T14:34:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: So…? The etymology of the word blouse is irrelevant to the actual history of the garment itself.
<2022-11-17T14:41:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Logically speaking, the fact that you have to resort to the strawman of discussing the etymology of the word “blouse” instead of truly discussing the history of the garment itself is indicative of you having a lack of a counterargument to what I’ve been saying.
<2022-11-17T14:44:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If you really have nothing left, it’s ok to admit defeat. I won’t gloat. I’ve been defeated in debate too, and in fact it was alot of being defeated in debate that led to my conversion.
<2022-11-17T15:14:19.000Z> Nou: Firstly, stating what a blouse was historically is not a question of etymology. It appears you may not know what that word means. Not once does the quote I provided offer any linguistic evolution of the word blouse, but rather talks about what it's use at its inception was.
<2022-11-17T15:15:06.000Z> Nou: I will happily provide you a link to a dictionary if you think it'll help prevent you from making such silly mistakes in the future.
<2022-11-17T15:15:38.000Z> Nou: Moreover, it appears you also don't know what a "strawman" is.
<2022-11-17T15:15:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Even on that Wikipedia page it admits that blouses were worn by both men and women, which is correct because blouses do show up in female European folk costumes (which long predate women trying to dress like men).
<2022-11-17T15:16:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I gave the example of a dirndl.
<2022-11-17T15:17:02.000Z> Nou: Since providing you with the history of a garment doesn't posit an argument of yours, much less a mischaracterized one, it definitionally *cannot* be a strawman.
<2022-11-17T15:17:38.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You didn’t point at the history of the garment though, you pointed at the history of the word “blouse”.
<2022-11-17T15:18:06.000Z> Nou: "Blouses were originally worn by workmen"
<2022-11-17T15:18:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The etymology of the word “blouse” is beyond the point.
<2022-11-17T15:18:12.000Z> Nou: Lol
<2022-11-17T15:18:36.000Z> Nou: Seriously. I'll be happy to link you a dictionary.
<2022-11-17T15:18:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And “peasants, artists, women, and children.”
<2022-11-17T15:18:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: In other words, literally everybody.
<2022-11-17T15:19:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: First paragraph: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blouse
<2022-11-17T15:19:56.000Z> Nou: Yes. Pants are worn by literally everyone. Glad you concede the point.
<2022-11-17T15:27:18.000Z> Nou: But I thought your entire claim was predicated on what a garment was *at its inception.*
<2022-11-17T15:27:47.000Z> Nou: In which case what I quoted to you is far more relevant than what you quoted.
<2022-11-17T15:28:30.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: But pants are only worn by everyone because of women crossdressing to be like, and be treated like, men.
<2022-11-17T15:29:18.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It isn’t even remotely the same because blouses are actually part of traditional Western female dress, whereas pants are just menswear that is worn by crossdressing women.
<2022-11-17T15:29:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What you quoted is useless because blouses, like capes, were a unisex garment from the start.
<2022-11-17T15:30:05.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Even the Wikipedia article admits that.
<2022-11-17T15:30:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And if you know anything about traditional European feminine clothing, you know that it includes blouses, as is the case with dirndls for instance.
<2022-11-17T15:31:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Thereby proving that the blouse was traditionally not just for men and then later for women, but traditionally for women as well as men.
<2022-11-17T16:16:47.000Z> Nou: You intentionally misrepresenting what the article says.
<2022-11-17T16:17:36.000Z> Nou: It says the blouse was originally worn by workmen, and later adopted by women. The literal exact same evolution pants took.
<2022-11-17T16:18:44.000Z> Nou: And then you draw some arbitrary line in time to say this happening before the line is "traditional" and therefore ok, but after it is not.
<2022-11-17T18:45:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It doesn’t say anything like that in the article whatsoever. It just says that the word “blouse” originated in reference to a male shirt.
<2022-11-17T18:45:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I quote: Blouse is a loanword from French to English (see Wiktionary entry blouse). Originally referring to the blue blouse worn by French workmen,[3] the term "blouse" began to be applied to the various smocks and tunics worn by English farm labourers. In 1870, blouse was first referenced as being "for a young lady."[9]
<2022-11-17T18:47:26.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The line is not arbitrary considering that women started wearing pants in order to be like men and be treated like men, just like Cardinal Siri said. Women wearing pants is subversive and it’s ideological in origin.
<2022-11-18T00:51:59.000Z> Nou attached file https://i.poastcdn.org/8e446c6335cc4b1a26d4b1cc6c190f0c1bacc4d21d160cacd940da52d805ca1c.jpg
<2022-11-18T00:52:20.000Z> Nou: Are you not familiar with the term "originally"?
<2022-11-18T00:54:19.000Z> Nou: And it is arbitrary. You said you draw the line on the intent of the garment changing sexes, but that requires you to be a mind reader, which you're not; and it no longernger applies anyway (if it ever did), per your own admission.
<2022-11-18T02:05:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What?
<2022-11-18T02:07:01.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: It doesn’t require anyone to be a mind reader, it just requires one to know which sex the garment is for.
<2022-11-18T06:42:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And what’s the “as per your own admission” in reference to?
<2022-11-18T06:43:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You are a moral sunjectivist because you think that if menswear is worn by women enough then it turns into menswear. This is like saying that if enough people steal then stealing must be ok because everyone does it.
<2022-11-18T06:44:59.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You think that if menswear is worn by enough women that it turns into womenswear.
<2022-11-18T06:45:21.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s extremely subjective and it’s just moral relativism.
<2022-11-18T06:46:24.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: When a fashion for one sex is introduced to the wardrobe of the other for subversive ideological purposes, yeah it’s definitely cross-dressing no matter how popular it is.
<2022-11-18T06:50:48.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Are you not familiar with the term “etymology”? Etymology is the study of words and their origin. The fact that the word “blouse” originally referred to a male garment is not even remotely indicative that what is now called a blouse was for men. Like I said, traditional female European dress, such as the dirndl, includes blouses and thus we know that blouses are traditionally womenswear in Western culture. But we also know that some blouses were also trafitionally worn by men, and hence they are also a male fashion. Blouses are a unisex fashion.
<2022-11-18T06:51:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Etymology has nothing to do with the history of fashion.
<2022-11-18T06:52:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Pants never chaged sexes. Women wearing them is just normalized crossdressing.
<2022-11-18T15:52:07.000Z> Nou: So now in addition to "etymology" we can add "moral relativist" to the list of words whose meaning you don't know.
<2022-11-18T15:54:07.000Z> Nou: Pants and blouses both took an identical trajectory. Namely they started as men's fashion, and were later worn by both sexes. Yet you think that one is acceptable and the other is not based purely on your own personal tastes.
<2022-11-18T15:54:52.000Z> Nou: And do you know what we call people who draw arbitrary distinctions based on their own personal tastes like you do?
<2022-11-18T15:55:04.000Z> Nou: We call them relativists.
<2022-11-18T16:16:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You don’t believe me on what etymology is? Just look it up in a dictionary and see foryourself. You have not provided any evidence whatsoever for your claim that blouses started out as meswear that later was worn by women. I have shown you that blouses are indeed a part of traditional European female dress, and yet you keep clinging to strawman argument that the etymology of the word “blouse” equates to the history of the garment itself. You’ve been name-calling, saying that I “draw aribtrary distinctions based on [my] own personal tastes” when I have been very objective, clear and consistent in my arguments. You are so stuck on believing that normalized crossdressing stops being crossdressing if it occurs commonly enough, and you made the abritrary distinction that “cross-dressing cannot be unintentional”. You project your own fallacies onto me, and I see that there is no point in continuing to debate with you because if I do then you’ll just keep doing so and thus it won’t get us anywhere. You’re set in your preferred way of thinking, and no amount of logic, reason, or evidence will change that. You won’t even give yourself the honor of humbly admitting defeat in debate, as I once did which led me to becoming a shameless anti-semite and Catholic.
<2022-11-18T18:48:46.000Z> Nou: So, I am well aware of what etymology means. Hence why I correctly identified your misuse of it. Which is unsurprising considering you have once again misused strawman as well. As well as called me a relativist, for rejecting your relativism. I have likewise offered you multiple sources demonstrating that blouses were worn exclusively by men "originally" hence at their origin. Again, this is literally the exact evolution pants took. Yet you accept the former but reject the latter solely based on your personal tastes.
<2022-11-18T19:02:11.000Z> Nou: Moreover, it's awfully ironic that while you are accusing me of being illogical you would end that post with both an ad hominid and an appeal to emotion. Coupled with your consistent misuse of words and failure to apply your own standards consistently, it would appear your thinking is neither as rational nor as fact based as you think.