<2022-12-26T10:32:19.000Z> C_J_S: Hello, you might have seen this via @ but I saw you saying to get into your DMs.  Got any idea what might be wrong with this cat and what a Vet might do to help him? https://i.poastcdn.org/44a14288accd38ee8c082db827d779134af4b33f5314a9794dc6d6640ce7e91e.png
<2022-12-26T15:03:40.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Yes, any history on this cat? Outdoor pet cat, stray, feral etc? Unfixed male?
<2022-12-26T15:36:39.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: If you want to get down to the obvious, his eyes look inflamed, his 3rd eyelids there look swollen too. There are many potential reasons for this. Simple ones may just be eye infections, treated with eye drops or eye ointments. More complex issues may be flare ups of feline herpes - can be treated the same but depending on the individual cat it may need regular vet visits. I had one herpes cat who's eye just got worse n worse till it popped and needed to be removed. 
<2022-12-26T15:40:25.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: But some cats you'd never know had herpes and recovery goes just fine. Then there's FeLV, which is more common in feral cat colonies, and FIV which is much more common in unfixed outdoor male cats. both of these cause issues with immune systems. Again they may recover just fine with eye meds. Or, they may need stronger antibiotics. finally there's entropion
<2022-12-26T15:42:25.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Entropion is where the eyelids grow inward towards the eye. Eye meds will help infections caused by resulting abrasions but it will not fix the core problem - he would need a surgery for that. It's not that terrible because a lot of dog breeds require it so many vets are capable of said sx
<2022-12-26T15:43:34.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: And that's all the common things I can think of but really the cat would need diagnostics to find out what's going on. But you could always bring him to a vet just to see if eye meds help clear it up
<2022-12-26T22:43:46.000Z> C_J_S: Thank you very much!  A lot of this is as I feared.
<2022-12-26T22:45:08.000Z> C_J_S: So, just down the street from us is this cat's ostensible owner.  Her daughter lived with her and she was her daughter's cat.  Her daughter left to live interstate and claimed they don't allow cats in that state. (they do).  Since then it was up to her, the mother, to look after him.
<2022-12-26T22:46:25.000Z> C_J_S: We moved in here some months back and saw another feral that looked like it was starving to death.  We fed that one and ended up meeting several more because we put food out.  I thought this ginger cat might have an owner originally but became increasingly convinced he no longer did.  I see from a trail camera he comes here any time, day or night.
<2022-12-26T22:47:34.000Z> C_J_S: I actually spoke to the owner, the other day.  She said he doesn't come when she calls anymore.  It looks like we might have half-stolen her cat by accident.  This guy is semi-feral and I don't know if there is anyone that could put eye drops or ointment on him.
<2022-12-26T22:48:43.000Z> C_J_S: Her next-door neighbour apparently feeds the feral cats around here too.  The cops were there the other day and I'm a little nervous about talking to them.  I hear sometimes they let the ferals just go in and out of their house.
<2022-12-26T22:52:58.000Z> C_J_S: He also sprays quite a lot.  I don't know much about unfixed toms but there are two others that visit.  One I have never seen spray at all.  The other maybe once.  This ginger sprays all the time.  Makes me wonder if he has a UTI or something.
<2022-12-26T22:58:36.000Z> C_J_S: I have another question.  If some two week old kittens were in a shady spot, deep under some thick bushes, how would you expect them to fare on a 98.6/37 degree day?
<2022-12-27T03:50:28.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: If momma cat is coming by occasionally, those kittens should probably be fine in that weather. I live where it's regularly 100°F with 90% humidity and feral kittens fare just fine, they are resilient if they are used to that weather. If momma cat abandoned them, then they have much bigger issues.
<2022-12-27T11:49:08.000Z> C_J_S: What got me into being a crazy cat man was this one starving looking cat we saw and started feeding.  Pretty quickly she started looking fat but we noticed after not visiting for a couple of days she looked like she lost about half of it.  I got some worming paste and gave it to her and the bloating disappeared.  I probably would have had her fixed if not for that confusion making us wonder if she was already pregnant.  But then she did get pregnant.
<2022-12-27T11:54:43.000Z> C_J_S: There's another one I am concerned about who is a skinny, lanky young cat.  He doesn't seem to be putting on weight with us feeding him.  What would you say are the most likely causes of something like that?  I intend to worm him but that paste doesn't seem to be on the market anymore.  I have to try and build enough trust to get a topical one on him.  That ginger cat also might have scared him away from our house.
<2022-12-31T03:35:59.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Virtually all kittens are born with roundworms, so intestinal parasites would be high on my guesses
<2022-12-31T03:37:08.000Z> C_J_S: Thanks for your input.  Little turd isn't visiting now so it's going to make it hard for me to worm him!
<2022-12-31T03:37:45.000Z> C_J_S: Trail cam photo of him inspecting a nearby abandoned house this morning. https://i.poastcdn.org/2b4fb2c06dc08882037662785810e0562d625e32ad046ece1b14fb3cca9dead4.JPG
<2022-12-31T04:00:15.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: That's a neat little pattern on his side
<2022-12-31T04:02:44.000Z> C_J_S: There's another tuxedo cat in the street who looks like she has eyeliner on.  The black runs just barely along underneath her eyes.  Haven't managed to get a photo of her. https://i.poastcdn.org/9f3515df0caf463962f292a56bc2faaee292037c198afd3bc16bba34f6efcaa6.JPG
<2023-04-14T01:43:02.000Z> C_J_S: Hey Tapir, are you still around?
<2023-04-14T01:51:12.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Yes, I just have a pretty busy day job 
<2023-04-14T01:55:39.000Z> C_J_S: I was hoping to bum some free vet-type advice from you today.  About feline parvovirus.
<2023-04-14T01:56:19.000Z> C_J_S: We have a feral that we look after.  She had a litter of eight kittens.  Six of them she brought to our backyard.  Two were caught by a neighbour and we never saw those.
<2023-04-14T01:56:49.000Z> C_J_S: We kept them around for 3 months to try and socialize them best we could.  We caught five of them and took them to the vet/pound after that.
<2023-04-14T01:57:28.000Z> C_J_S: The kittens definitely had cat flu.  One seemed like he might have a chronic case.  He still had mucky eyes.  The others basically got over it and seemed fine and healthy.
<2023-04-14T01:58:00.000Z> C_J_S: That one with the mucky eyes my parents actually wanted to take back.  They changed their mind.  Pound said they'll treat them and we can have him back soon.
<2023-04-14T01:58:23.000Z> C_J_S: We caught a fifth kitten last night and my parents took him down today and enquired about the kittens there.
<2023-04-14T01:58:29.000Z> C_J_S: They're dead.  They put them all down.
<2023-04-14T01:58:46.000Z> C_J_S: They claim they had parvovirus and gave it to the other cats.  Whole lot in the place put down.
<2023-04-14T01:59:21.000Z> C_J_S: I had never heard of parvovirus until today.  I skimmed the wikipedia page.  It looks like it should kill you pretty quick if it's going to.
<2023-04-14T01:59:28.000Z> C_J_S: They were 3 months old and seemed fine.
<2023-04-14T01:59:33.000Z> C_J_S: Do you think they had it?
<2023-04-14T02:17:11.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: They definitely could have. They could have been infected at any time, and the incubation period takes like a week or so. 
<2023-04-14T02:18:13.000Z> C_J_S: The only contact with cats they had until they went to that pound was their parents which was from birth.
<2023-04-14T02:18:18.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: I've had to deal with it in a shelter setting. It is highly contagious to all ages of cat so any cat that was in the same room as the infected ones had to be euthanized 
<2023-04-14T02:18:56.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Where were the cats kept?
<2023-04-14T02:19:54.000Z> C_J_S: In the backyard.  So, yes, I could not guarantee other cats did not come in contact with them.  The other thing I could not guarantee is their free-roaming father not picking it up somewhere recently then giving it to them recently.
<2023-04-14T02:20:42.000Z> C_J_S: The had nasal discharge and conjunctivitis-like symptoms.  The Vets said "cat flu."  We did not witness lethargy, vomiting, loose stool. 
<2023-04-14T02:21:31.000Z> C_J_S: They were at the shelter for about two weeks.
<2023-04-14T02:22:41.000Z> C_J_S: They had healthy appetites and were not underweight.
<2023-04-14T02:23:37.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: It also lives in the environment as well
<2023-04-14T02:23:54.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: So it's definitely a possibilit 
<2023-04-14T02:24:21.000Z> C_J_S: Are vaccines effective against it?  ie.  Would the cat we have be safe from the survivors assuming he was vaccinated for it.
<2023-04-14T02:25:35.000Z> C_J_S: What I think, as an ignorant layman, is they have a gorillian cats and have to claim they don't put any down unless they need to.  So they point a finger or make shit up when the cages get too full.
<2023-04-14T02:28:40.000Z> C_J_S: Another question I have is would the survivors tell us anything about whether or not the ones put down really had it?  Like, I'm reading here that maybe even most cats would just test positive for this sub-clinically.  So these ones testing positive may not even tell us if those ones really needed to be euthanized?
<2023-04-14T02:36:51.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Perhaps 
<2023-04-14T02:39:00.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Euthanizing all of them is a preventative measure. They are not testing each individual one because it can incubate for 5 days and up to 2 weeks
<2023-04-14T02:39:31.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: They have to think of herd health, basically.
<2023-04-14T02:40:50.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Vaccines are effective but they need to be properly boosted against it. So a cat vaccinated yesterday wouldn't be safe from fel leuk today
<2023-04-14T02:42:42.000Z> C_J_S: They did every cat in the place so it would only be herd health if you count cats everywhere.
<2023-04-14T02:42:54.000Z> C_J_S: My parents saw them taking in the bags with their boots on.
<2023-04-14T02:43:13.000Z> C_J_S: I'm shocked they didn't come back with the one they took but I don't want to point that out.
<2023-04-14T02:43:24.000Z> C_J_S: I'd have brought him back or been arrested.
<2023-04-14T02:43:59.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Working in a high kill facility I just doubt that they would have killed kittens old enough to adopt out because they are your cheapest and fastest turn around.
<2023-04-14T02:44:03.000Z> C_J_S: I think we have been bullshitted every step of the way because they know people wouldn't bring them in.
<2023-04-14T02:45:03.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: If they had space issues they'd put down the oldest ones first, assuming they were not already euthanizing the ill.
<2023-04-14T02:45:30.000Z> C_J_S: They killed all of the cats in the place.
<2023-04-14T02:46:21.000Z> C_J_S: My parents reckon when they were there before it looked visibly packed.
<2023-04-14T02:47:23.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Neither of us know what's really going on without being there. But if I was a betting man I'd say there probably was some outbreak of panleukopenia. Who knows where it would have come from though. It lives in environments for years if not disinfected, it could be on the pelt of any cat or just on someone's clothes even 
<2023-04-14T02:48:45.000Z> C_J_S: What they claim is parvo and they specifically pointed the finger at the ones we brought in.  I don't think that's true.  Most of ours did not look sick at all.  We didn't take them directly to the pound either.  Those first four went to a Vet.  Vet reckoned cat flu.
<2023-04-14T02:49:25.000Z> C_J_S: I doubt believe they're testing anyone.  I think maybe someone brought it in and they just cleaned house.
<2023-04-14T02:56:42.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Tbh that's what I would do, too.
<2023-04-14T02:57:25.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: that's just shelter protocol if panleukopenia enters.
<2023-04-14T02:57:59.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: I wonder if yours were the first/only tested positive. There might be others that didn't die as fast
<2023-04-14T03:02:27.000Z> C_J_S: If our official cat gets fully F3 vaccinated would he be at significant risk around these cats is we adopted them and they did have parvo?
<2023-04-14T04:52:40.000Z> C_J_S: Is this plausible: the kittens had the virus but it was kept somewhat in check by antibodies from mum's milk.  They get cut off from mum's milk.  Appear fine (enough) for a week or so and then are visibly fucked.
<2023-04-14T11:44:10.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: The panleukopenia vax is pretty effective - kittens need a booster every 3-4 weeks until they are ~20 weeks old. Past that a cat just needs 2 boosters in 2-3 weeks. Then a yearly vax after that. I usually don't consider a cat to be well protected until about 10-14 days after their yearly vax. If that makes sense.
<2023-04-14T11:46:25.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: And it's a possibility but I'm thinking at 3 months old they aren't getting a lot of nutrients from mom.
<2023-04-14T11:49:24.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Unless they were still mostly nursing? But at that age they are usually well old enough to be on solids. I have two theories. One being they were incubating the virus and the stress of a shelter environment affected their immune system and that's when the illness hit. Or, something else in the shelter had panleuk and gave it to your kittens, and your kittens just happened to succumb first so they assumed it was your kittens that were patient 0.
<2023-04-14T11:49:56.000Z> C_J_S: I think it's the second one which makes what happened today worse.
<2023-04-14T11:50:08.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Why?
<2023-04-14T11:50:58.000Z> C_J_S: My parents took one of the kittens that we caught today to the pound.  So they get there and put the carrying cage down on the ground, outside the building.  A lady comes out and says "Don't come in, we have had an outbreak"  My parents literally see them unrolling garbage bags and asking about whether they should put on their booties.
<2023-04-14T11:51:06.000Z> C_J_S: Then they ask what happened.
<2023-04-14T11:51:19.000Z> C_J_S: "Oh, yours were the four?  That was where the virus came from."
<2023-04-14T11:51:27.000Z> C_J_S: They let them take the 5th kitten.
<2023-04-14T11:51:54.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Sounds like a municipal shelter 
<2023-04-14T11:51:56.000Z> C_J_S: I guess they were kind of stunned but they let them bloody take him too.  He is dead and probably for nothing.
<2023-04-14T11:52:53.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: They are legally required to take in animals. My place we would have basically told y'all to fuck off for a few days until everything was cleaned
<2023-04-14T11:53:06.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: Or probably weeks realistically 
<2023-04-14T11:53:34.000Z> C_J_S: I think they might have been about to do that but they let her just seize him and watched her do it.
<2023-04-14T11:53:53.000Z> C_J_S: Submitted to the authority of what was probably some lunch lady looking woman rather than make a fuss.
<2023-04-14T11:54:19.000Z> Tepid_Tapir: But they also may have had something else set up. When I worked in gov shelters and this would happen we would make the nursery or the ringworm room a new cat qt for a bit 
<2023-04-14T11:54:19.000Z> C_J_S: I mean I think they might have told them to come back but they're thinking that litter is where it came from.
<2023-04-14T11:55:59.000Z> C_J_S: They reckon she said our litter was where it came from but without much conviction that they definitely knew.
<2023-04-14T11:57:13.000Z> C_J_S: We told them we wanted one of the original four back.  They said sure, they'll treat and neuter him and we can essentially buy him back.  They had our details.  They didn't even call to tell us.
<2023-04-14T11:58:43.000Z> C_J_S: This is a city council pound in an outer suburb.  Borderline semi-rural.
<2023-04-14T11:59:55.000Z> C_J_S: They took the original four to a Vet who shipped them off to the Pound.  Both the Vet staff and the Pound reassured us that they don't put them down unless they have health or behavioural problems worse than what these cats had.
<2023-04-14T12:00:34.000Z> C_J_S: That seemed suspicious in itself.  How could they promise that with a gorillian cats needing homes?
<2023-04-14T12:01:32.000Z> C_J_S: Well, one would be you just empty the place out every so often and write it off as parvo.