<2022-12-09T05:22:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Ah, another distributist!
<2022-12-09T05:22:35.000Z> BowsacNoodle: That's right!
<2022-12-09T05:23:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You know, I think that alot of people are distributists without realizing it. They just think that anything besides communism is capitalism basically.
<2022-12-09T05:23:12.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I think there's plenty of others who would be if they knew what it was.
<2022-12-09T05:24:31.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Yup. Even my more politically engaged friends still think "market economy = capitalism". As if no one bought goods or services until after the end of mercantilism.
<2022-12-09T05:25:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yeah, it’s kind of weird but I mean I guess not because most people don’t bother to do their research.
<2022-12-09T05:26:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What’s your take on the state of the papacy? Do think that Francis is a pope? Do you think that he’s a heretic?
<2022-12-09T05:26:48.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I've been trying to spread the word to the NatSoc guys. Distributism is fully compatible as an evolution from their movement without compromising beliefs, as it bans the parts of capitalism we all hate and still keeps the most popular parts of 'socialism' (pro labor).
<2022-12-09T05:28:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: NatSocs are a stubborn bunch… one would think that they’d be easier to redpill, but they get so stuck on being gay for Hitler and whatnot.
<2022-12-09T05:29:25.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Regarding Francis, I tend to lean towards the media being horrible and exploiting his nature of being overly charitable in his statement. Unfortunately he has allowed blatant heresy to fester under his watch, so from thqt p 
<2022-12-09T05:29:42.000Z> BowsacNoodle: From that perspective I'm rather disappointed in him.
<2022-12-09T05:30:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You know that the Bible says that a good tree can’t bear bad fruit and a bad tree can’t bear good fruit?
<2022-12-09T05:31:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What fruit would you say that Vatican II and Francis have born?
<2022-12-09T05:33:24.000Z> BowsacNoodle: But also I'm Eastern Catholic, so most of what happens at Rome doesn't affect us. There's still lines Francis hasn't crossed that I personally would treat as my (not The Church's) line in the sand. He hasn't to my knowledge outright blasphemed directly. The trouble with being hyper ecumenical+ his Latin American upbringing is he attempts to people please and show the "loving" side of The Church, but it's just throwing seed on stony ground or casting pearls before swine...
<2022-12-09T05:33:53.000Z> BowsacNoodle: These people need tough life and hard truths. Christ didn't come to bring peace but a sword and all that.
<2022-12-09T05:34:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Have you seen this?:
<2022-12-09T05:35:14.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: http://francisquotes.com
<2022-12-09T05:35:40.000Z> BowsacNoodle: One of the few good things about Vatican 2 would be that The Eastern Church is no longer being forcibly romanized. I quite enjoy TLM though, so I'm saddened by the recent moves away from it. 
<2022-12-09T05:35:54.000Z> BowsacNoodle: But at large, it was a huge mistake.
<2022-12-09T05:36:15.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Whoops... Tough love* and hard truths. 
<2022-12-09T05:37:03.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What do you mean forcibly Romanized?
<2022-12-09T05:38:05.000Z> BowsacNoodle: They were doing a soft iconoclasm and Romanization in American Eastern Catholic Churches prior to Vatican 2. 
<2022-12-09T05:38:51.000Z> BowsacNoodle: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html
<2022-12-09T05:38:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: What kind of iconoclasm?
<2022-12-09T05:39:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s from when Vatican II was taking place so not exactly pre-Vatican II.
<2022-12-09T05:39:36.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Literally removing icon screens and attempting to change liturgy from what I'm told by some older parishioners.
<2022-12-09T05:40:53.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Wasn't Vatican 2 1962-65?
<2022-12-09T05:41:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Yes.
<2022-12-09T05:42:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Did you know that if the novus ordo (post Pope Pius XII) papal claimants are popes then the novus ordo rite is mandatory?
<2022-12-09T05:43:29.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=105
<2022-12-09T05:44:02.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I'm not sure what you mean. Let me read this link.
<2022-12-09T05:46:02.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Hmm
<2022-12-09T05:46:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Interesting, innit?
<2022-12-09T05:49:35.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I mean I get where there coming from in the sense that leaving things too open to interpretation causes issues, but I don't agree with the decision given that everyone involved with Vatican 2 had previously taken Sacrorum antistitum oath against modernity. That fundamentally makes a shift in tradition like that non-mandatory at best and borderline heresy at worst.
<2022-12-09T05:52:44.000Z> BowsacNoodle: It's hard for me to be as frustrated as I probably would be if I were RCC. We're quite insulated in the Eastern Rite against some of the more radical modernism plaguing the Western Church.
<2022-12-09T05:53:07.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Can't have guitar mass if you don't use instruments in liturgy 👌🏻
<2022-12-09T05:54:15.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Peraps this may be of interest?: https://www.holyromancatholicchurch.org/heresies.html
<2022-12-09T05:57:36.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I never went to the novus ordo mass, personally.
<2022-12-09T05:59:04.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Point C really irks me.
<2022-12-09T05:59:19.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Heretical and schismatic sects are means of salvation.
<2022-12-09T05:59:43.000Z> BowsacNoodle: As if The Orthodox Church is damned? Come on now.
<2022-12-09T06:00:49.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: You think that heretical sects are a means of salvation?
<2022-12-09T06:02:29.000Z> BowsacNoodle: If a man in prison in a non-Christian country (e.g. China) receives a Gideon's Bible and comes to know Christ through reading and becomes a devout Christian, I don't believe it is fair to judge him for not having a proper Catholic baptism or ability to receive
<2022-12-09T06:03:52.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Baptism of blood and desire are a thing.
<2022-12-09T06:04:15.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Correct and I feel that kind of falls into that space.
<2022-12-09T06:04:58.000Z> BowsacNoodle: There's a reason bad pastors are punished worse than bad leity
<2022-12-09T06:05:11.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Material herey (aka believing in heresy due to not knowing any better) is not a sin but technically is still a form of heresy.
<2022-12-09T06:05:53.000Z> BowsacNoodle: If someone is formed wrong through no fault of their own, that's a different story than choosing to do a thing which Christ condemns or otherwise obviously violates the commandments.
<2022-12-09T06:05:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Formal heresy (aka believing in heresy while knowing that it’s heretical) is a sin.
<2022-12-09T06:06:15.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Yeah so we're on the same page there 👍🏻
<2022-12-09T06:06:28.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Yeah we're on the same page there.
<2022-12-09T06:07:09.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I suppose that an argument could be made that a material heretic could go to heaven through baptism of desire, like if they really want to be a teue Christian but don’t know how.
<2022-12-09T06:07:19.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: At least in theory.
<2022-12-09T06:07:41.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Baptism of desire isn’t applicable for baptized heretics though.
<2022-12-09T06:07:53.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: At least validly baptized ones.
<2022-12-09T06:08:38.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I was raised protestant and I can tell you that despite all the flaws in a lot of the "low church protestants", there's a lot of people in them who love God with all their heart and think they're doing what he wants by their sola scriptura.
<2022-12-09T06:09:08.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I think it’s more likely that material heretics will end up in limbo rather than heaven or hell.
<2022-12-09T06:09:22.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I was pretty much raised secular.
<2022-12-09T06:09:36.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Also why I don't have the strongest knowledge on RCC stuff. I came back to faith via The Eastern Church.
<2022-12-09T06:11:55.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Who knows, really. Much like the "righteous dead" before Christ, I expect God will judge people by their intentions and actions, but literally who am I to question Him.
<2022-12-09T06:12:23.000Z> BowsacNoodle: You're Sede ya?
<2022-12-09T06:13:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: If I get to heaven then I’m not unlikely to bombard him with questions.
<2022-12-09T06:13:16.000Z> BowsacNoodle: ☺️
<2022-12-09T06:13:44.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I will not be unlikely to bombard God with questions if I get to heaven.
<2022-12-09T06:13:52.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I understand. I've kind of settled with the expectation that most of those things won't matter when I'm standing in His presence.
<2022-12-09T06:13:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: And yes, I’m a sede.
<2022-12-09T06:14:11.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Ever attend an Eastern Church?
<2022-12-09T06:15:00.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: My whole life, I have had knowledge-hungry tendencies. I’m like a 55/45 split between Melancholic and Choleric respectively, with traces of Sanguine and an even smaller trace of Phlegmatic.
<2022-12-09T06:15:07.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Nope.
<2022-12-09T06:16:13.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I highly recommend it. I'm biased, but it's a great experience. I know several Roman Catholics who switched over the last few years for various reasons. 
<2022-12-09T06:17:55.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Maybe some day.
<2022-12-09T06:19:32.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Right now, I don’t have a reason to.
<2022-12-09T06:19:51.000Z> BowsacNoodle: See if you can find one in you area. The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has been practiced since like 400 AD.
<2022-12-09T06:20:26.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Ah. Are you non-practicing at the moment, or do you at least have a church?
<2022-12-09T06:20:57.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I live in a place where I have access to the Latin mass via a CMRI church and another non-una cum church.
<2022-12-09T06:21:18.000Z> BowsacNoodle: 👍🏻
<2022-12-09T06:21:52.000Z> BowsacNoodle: I'd still recommend attending one if for no other reason than appreciation of the other half of The Church.
<2022-12-09T06:21:58.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: My primary concern with the Eastern rites, I think, is 2 things:
<2022-12-09T06:22:46.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: 1. I don’t know of any Eastern rite churches that do not deny Pope Paul IV.
<2022-12-09T06:24:42.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: 2. The Latin mass seems more traditional to me as I am, as far as I know, predominantly of northern and western European descent rather than southern and eastern European descent and I identify with Western culture more so than with any other.
<2022-12-09T06:25:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Well, that first one is the primary concern. The second one is more of a preference. I’m a huge Western traditionalist.
<2022-12-09T06:25:53.000Z> BowsacNoodle: Interesting regarding pope Paul IV. I'd like to learn more about that. Apologies though as I'm getting pretty tired. Please continue though if you're willing to elaborate
<2022-12-09T06:26:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: I quote:
<2022-12-09T06:28:12.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate… has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy… it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way…; to any so… elevated as Cardinals… no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain”
<2022-12-09T06:29:45.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: That’s from Cum Ex Apostalatus Officio by Pope Paul IV: http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/encyclicals/Paul04/cumex.html
<2022-12-09T06:30:54.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Also from Cum Ex Apostalatus Officio:
<2022-12-09T06:31:02.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: No one at all, therefore, may infringe this document of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul.
<2022-12-09T06:36:20.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: The part I was originally referencing is this:
<2022-12-09T06:42:33.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: if ever at any time it shall appear that… the Roman Pontif prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy…  the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation; it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way…; it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation; each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone; those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.
<2022-12-09T06:46:50.000Z> Lady_Euromutt@nicecrew.digital: Sorry about the weird duplication of “prior to his promotion or his elevetation as cardinal or Roman pontiff”… also, it’d probably make more sense if I replaced “as cardinal or” with “…”…